Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Nada]

You mean you JW's don't agree..
It's plain enough, after his execution Jesus dropped off the evildoer in heaven, then came and went himself a number of times to give messages to his followers over a period of 40 days, sometimes in spiritual form and sometimes in solid flesh and blood form.

"..he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

First,I am not a JW.You have to be baptized to become a JW.I am not baptized yet.
Second,You are incorrect about Jesus coming back and forth.When he told the evildoer he would be with him in paradise,this was stated before Jesus died.Jesus was dead for 3 days and then resurrected.He was around for 40 days ,then he ascended to heaven.He did not ascend to heaven until after these 40 days.Its documented in the holy scriptures.It explains that Jesus has not yet ascended to heaven.

When Jesus was risen he appeared to Mary Magdalene and said this to her.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


It begins at John 20:11-18.


The passage you cite in Acts 1:9-11 took place 40 days after Jesus was risen.This is when he ascended to heaven,not before.

So we have Jesus saying he has not yet ascended to heaven after he was resurrected.Then, we have Jesus ascending to heaven 40 days later.

Read John 20:11-18 and Acts 1:9-11.

You said,"It's plain enough, after his execution Jesus dropped off the evildoer in heaven," This is incorrect.
Jesus was in Sheol/Hades for 3 days.He was not in heaven.He did not drop anybody off in heaven for he had not yet ascended to heaven until after the 40 days.

This is where Jesus was for 3 days after his death.

Acts 2:31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

Another word for the realm of the dead is Sheol and Hades.

Heres another version

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

And another

Acts 2:31 And he saw and spoke before about the resurrection of The Messiah, that he would not be left in Sheol, neither would his body see corruption.”

This passage means that Jesus was not left in the realm of the dead to rot like everyone else who dies but was resurrected as prophesied. Thats why it says this at the end," nor did his flesh see corruption.
40 days after this took place he then ascended to heaven.

You are very mistaken..... The holy scriptures are clear.It shows Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after the 40 days.It NEVER says that he went back and forth within these 40 days.It says the opposite.It shows he ascended after the 40 days.Its all documented.To go against this belief is to go against the very Word of God for it is His Word that claims this.

 

[Shad]

It does not contradict anything. Your understanding is flawed and thus your conclusion is flawed. Read the Bible with a lexicon if you need help.

 

[Sabour]

It does not contradict anything. Your understanding is flawed and thus your conclusion is flawed. Read the Bible with a lexicon if you need help.

According to what I read it is the Hebrew translation? Something more like the original ? If yes, than I hope you do it because I am sure that you didn't.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
It's interesting that when you quote from John 14 you take the passage as far as the words 'abide with you forever.' Yet you have chosen not to include the next few words which say .'FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.'

Here's the whole passage that I quoted.
John 14:16-20 'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.'

This cannot be a reference to Muhammad. Jesus was speaking to his disciples, who were told by Jesus that they would receive the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit was received, as foretold, at Pentecost (Acts 2) and was freely given thereafter.

How can Muhammad be IN YOU? How can people who lived before Muhammad receive Muhammad, even if he were the Spirit of Truth?

As I have said many times, the scriptures are unbroken. There is no point trying to extract a few quotations from John's Gospel whilst ignoring the host of others that explain clearly that Jesus came to baptise his followers with the Holy Spirit and fire. What did John the Baptist foretell? What does Paul say about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 12)?

You can't just pick and choose the bits of scripture that suit your argument. You have to take all the scripture and allow the scripture to interpret itself.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

You are very mistaken..... The holy scriptures are clear.It shows Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after the 40 days.It NEVER says that he went back and forth within these 40 days..

No offence mate, but that Jehovah's Witness theology is like a tangled ball of string, and the JW's would do well to heed Paul's advice to everybody-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

Jesus said straight out to the crook on the cross next to him- "Today you'll be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:41), which part of that don't JW's understand?
When Jesus appeared to his followers later, it PROVES he returned from paradise to earth, before finally returning there..

Incidentally, JW's don't celebrate Christmas, easter and birthdays, and they believe church spires are pagan, that Jesus was crucified on a stake, they won't wear crosses, and they let each other die for want of blood transfusions.
They're therefore just a 'vanity cult' who like to think they know better than the rest of us poor shmucks..
"If you try to study the Bible without our help,you go into darkness" (JW Watchtower magazine 15 Sep 1910,page 298 )

You say you're not a fully-fledged JW yet mate, so good for you, pull out while you still can; nobody needs any organised religion because Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)
or don't you believe him?..

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paarsurrey,
You seem convinced that the Qur'an states that Jesus was crucified, and that he survived crucifixion. Where in the Qur'an does it specifically state that Jesus was crucified?
The passage I referred to certainly doesn't say that he was crucified. It seems to suggest that someone else (possibly Simon of Cyrene) was crucified in his place.
I don't read Arabic, but maybe someone who does read Arabic will enlighten me as to the literal meaning of each word in those verses. (Sura 4:157, 158)

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
I must pick up on a statement that you have repeated, and that I find repeated by other Muslim friends.

You have said, 'I don't see that the whole Bible is true. Things were changed and words were altered overtime.'

As a Christian, I believe that there is one God and one Truth. The truth lies in God's Word, both written and living. I believe God has protected his Word from those who would destroy it.

Paarsurrey started to list what he thought were errors, but never got past his first point, because he failed to acknowledge the truth of the scripture about Jonah being dead in the belly of the great fish.

What other scriptures do you think are contradictions or errors?

Once again, the task of documenting the so-called errors of the Bible is never undertaken by Muslim scholars. Why not? For the simple reason that once started the whole of scripture would be unravelled. This would also undo the Qur'an, which relies on the Bible for its historicity and its prophets.

 

[Nada]

No offence mate, but that Jehovah's Witness theology is like a tangled ball of string, and the JW's would do well to heed Paul's advice to everybody-
"I'm worried lest you be led astray from the simplicity of Christ" (2 Cor 11:3)

Jesus said straight out to the crook on the cross next to him- "Today you'll be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:41), which part of that don't JW's understand?
When Jesus appeared to his followers later, it PROVES he returned from paradise to earth, before finally returning there..

Incidentally, JW's don't celebrate Christmas, easter and birthdays, and they believe church spires are pagan, that Jesus was crucified on a stake, they won't wear crosses, and they let each other die for want of blood transfusions.
They're therefore just a 'vanity cult' who like to think they know better than the rest of us poor shmucks..
"If you try to study the Bible without our help,you go into darkness" (JW Watchtower magazine 15 Sep 1910,page 298 )

You say you're not a fully-fledged JW yet mate, so good for you, pull out while you still can; nobody needs any organised religion because Jesus said:-"You have one teacher, me" (Matt 23:10)
or don't you believe him?..

No offense taken.Whats really happening is you fully do not understand the Word of God.You think it is some kind of JW trickery when in reality its not.Its all based on what it is actually saying in the holy scriptures.

#1 When Jesus returned 3days later,it was not from paradise or heaven.It was from the grave better known to the Jews as Sheol,to the Greeks as Hades,which is really the realm of the dead.Thats what Acts 2:31 is speaking of.The holy scriptures never says Jesus went to heaven immediately after he died.Jesus from his own lips even says "I have not yet ascended to the Father." It tells you this in John 20:17.So it is you who is not understanding simple scriptures brother.

#2 Can you find anywhere in the holy scriptures where God commands anyone to celebrate Christmas,Easter or Birthdays? The word Christmas never appears in the holy scriptures.Neither does December 25th.Easter is a pagan holiday that has to do with rebirth of the earth.Springtime.Thats what the egg represents.New life.The rabbit represents fertility.It does not originate with God at all.

Birthdays are an act of self worship and Idolatry.It is glorifying ones self and putting yourself on a pedestal for one day.All glory goes to God.Gods people never celebrated birthdays in the holy scriptures.It is a pagan holiday.Theres much proof in the holy scriptures.In Genesis 40:20-22 it speaks of King Pharaoh who had a birthday celebration feast and killed his chief baker by hanging him.In Mark 6:21-28 it speaks of King Herod Antipas having a huge birthday celebration.This is when John the Baptist was beheaded.His head was showcased at this birthday party.Both of these Kings were pagans and against God.

Jesus,his parents nor his disciples ever celebrated birthdays.None of Gods people did.

This scripture explains much about it.Ecclesiastes 7:1 A good name is better than fine perfume, and the day of death better than the day of birth.

What I have found is that there is Gods truth and then theres the worlds theories.Prayer,reading and studying diligently will help much.We must earnestly seek God and humble ourselves.God wants the meek,not the haughty.People who come to Him begging for knowledge and a true understanding of His Word are the ones He blesses with Grace.That is how one can acquire an accurate knowledge of the truth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey,
You seem convinced that the Qur'an states that Jesus was crucified, and that he survived crucifixion. Where in the Qur'an does it specifically state that Jesus was crucified?
The passage I referred to certainly doesn't say that he was crucified. It seems to suggest that someone else (possibly Simon of Cyrene) was crucified in his place.
I don't read Arabic, but maybe someone who does read Arabic will enlighten me as to the literal meaning of each word in those verses. (Sura 4:157, 158)

I give here the verses in the context for a correct understanding of Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa'

[4:153] And as for those who believe in Allah and in all of His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them, these are they whom He will soon give their rewards. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[4:154] The People of the Book ask thee to cause a Book to descend on them from heaven. They asked Moses a greater thing than this: they said, ‘Show us Allah openly.’ Then a destructive punishment overtook them because of their transgression. Then they took the calf for worship after clear Signs had come to them, but We pardoned even that. And We gave Moses manifest authority.
[4:155] And We raised high above them the Mount while making a covenant with them, and We said to them, ‘Enter the gate submissively,’ and We said to them, ‘Transgress not in the matter of the Sabbath.’ And We took from them a firm covenant.
[4:156] Then, because of their breaking of their covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to kill the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped in covers,’ — nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little —
[4:157] And because of their disbelief and their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny,
[4:158] And their saying, ‘We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no definite knowledge thereof, but only follow a conjecture; and they did not convert this conjecture into a certainty;
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4:160] And there is none among the People of the Book but will believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them —
[4:161] So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah’s way,
[4:162] And because of their taking interest, although they had been forbidden it, andbecause of their devouring people’s wealth wrongfully. And We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful punishment.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

When you will access the above link below every verse you will find “Detailed English Commentary ”; on clicking it you will find all “Important Words” explained and the explanation notes also.

If you need rendering of Arabic text of Quran into Roman/English Alphabetic that you can see at the following link:

Surat An-Nisa' - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????

by clicking following in the left hand column.

English/Transliteration

Did it help?

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paarsurrey, the only certainty from the translation you have shown is that Jesus was not crucified unto death. Going on what is written in English, we could easily conclude that another man was crucified in his place. We could, if this were the case, also conclude that Jesus never suffered crucifixion. The text is not at all clear on this matter.

Nor do I understand exactly what is meant by the words, 'Allah exalted him to himself'. Does this mean that Jesus was raised bodily from earth to heaven? When and where was this supposed to have taken place?

Are there other passages in the Qur'an that can confirm your view and offer a cross reference, or are you offering your own private interpretation?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

No offense taken.Whats really happening is you fully do not understand the Word of God.You think it is some kind of JW trickery when in reality its not.Its all based on what it is actually saying in the holy scriptures...

Right mate, Jesus said to the guy on the cross next to him "Today you'll be with me in paradise", whether you JW cultists choose to accept it or not..

 

[Nada]

Right mate, Jesus said to the guy on the cross next to him "Today you'll be with me in paradise", whether you JW cultists choose to accept it or not..

Thats not a very nice way to speak to others.When you speak to others,especially when speaking about Gods Word,you do not speak as you are doing brother.We are to speak to others with respect no matter what is said.Thats how one recognizes those who speak truth.I know it is hard at times, and we might have a slip of the tongue, but thats no excuse.We should always speak to each other in a kind manner.It was Jesus that said,"By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:35

He also said," Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31

So you see brother,even though you might have a difference in opinion,that is no reason to speak to others with disrespect

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Thats not a very nice way to speak to others..We are to speak to others with respect no matter what is said..

Go tell that to one of your JW chums in another forum who called me-
"Ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, a racist, self-deluded"

So I told him- "If you're looking for a fight mate, you've come to the right boy!"

 

[outhouse]

Go tell that to one of your JW chums in another forum who called me-
"Ignorant, a fable-spinner, talks drivel, a deceiver, a racist, self-deluded"

We don't talk to people like that here.


You have no clue about anything historical yourself, and all I see is your remarks aimed at yourself.


You have no clue whats going on here.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Paarsurrey, One-answer,
Can you not see that the position you have adopted regarding the crucifixion of Jesus is without foundation.

On the one hand you want to say Jesus never died on the cross. This would seem to fit with what the Qur'an says, either because he was never crucified, or because he was crucified and somehow survived.

The problem you face is again one of choice. If Jesus was not crucified, or did not die from crucifixion, you deny Jesus' word as a prophet of God. There is absolute certainty in the scriptures that Jesus spoke about his death.

Here's one example:
Mark 10:33,34: 'Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.'

Do you deny that Jesus was a prophet of God?

Do you also deny the prophets that foretold the event?
David in the Psalms. Psalm 22:15
Isaiah 53:7,8.
Jonah. Jonah 2:2

What about John the Baptist who said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.' (John 1:29)

How could sin be taken away without the sacrificial lamb dying? Are you also rejecting John as a prophet of God?

Or are you going to try to say that all these passages must be alterations and mistakes?

Just how much of the scripture are you wanting to erase?

 

[outhouse]

Paarsurrey, One-answer,
Can you not see that the position you have adopted regarding the crucifixion of Jesus is without foundation.

Reality is impossible to see if your brainwashed.


1 + 1 = what ever the koran says it is, and no amount of credible evidence will ever change their mind to the factual answer of 2.

You could hit them on the head twice with a hammer and ask them how many times they were struck, if the book say 57, that will be your answer.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..You have no clue about anything historical yourself, ..

Oh no? I was a clever-clogs Admin/Mod at the FGM wargaming/military history forum under my fighting name of 'PoorOldSpike', I bin around..

 

[outhouse]

Oh no? I was a clever-clogs Admin/Mod at the FGM wargaming/military history forum under my fighting name of 'PoorOldSpike', I bin around..

Not in biblical scholarships.

It is that obvious


I would own you in in COD


But if I had historical questions I would ask your opinion, not tell you things you already know while I am learning.

 

[Sabour]

One-answer,
It's interesting that when you quote from John 14 you take the passage as far as the words 'abide with you forever.' Yet you have chosen not to include the next few words which say .'FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.'

Here's the whole passage that I quoted.
John 14:16-20 'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.'

This cannot be a reference to Muhammad. Jesus was speaking to his disciples, who were told by Jesus that they would receive the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Spirit. This Holy Spirit was received, as foretold, at Pentecost (Acts 2) and was freely given thereafter.

How can Muhammad be IN YOU? How can people who lived before Muhammad receive Muhammad, even if he were the Spirit of Truth?

As I have said many times, the scriptures are unbroken. There is no point trying to extract a few quotations from John's Gospel whilst ignoring the host of others that explain clearly that Jesus came to baptise his followers with the Holy Spirit and fire. What did John the Baptist foretell? What does Paul say about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 12)?

You can't just pick and choose the bits of scripture that suit your argument. You have to take all the scripture and allow the scripture to interpret itself.

By the same manner, it also can't be about the holy spirit for what I mentioned.

As I said there are contradictions in the bible it self. One thing may clear things up and I wish you would do is referring to the original bible in the Hebrew / conic greek language and see how different things are.

 

[Sabour]

Paarsurrey, One-answer,
Can you not see that the position you have adopted regarding the crucifixion of Jesus is without foundation.

On the one hand you want to say Jesus never died on the cross. This would seem to fit with what the Qur'an says, either because he was never crucified, or because he was crucified and somehow survived.

The problem you face is again one of choice. If Jesus was not crucified, or did not die from crucifixion, you deny Jesus' word as a prophet of God. There is absolute certainty in the scriptures that Jesus spoke about his death.

Here's one example:
Mark 10:33,34: 'Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.'

Do you deny that Jesus was a prophet of God?

Do you also deny the prophets that foretold the event?
David in the Psalms. Psalm 22:15
Isaiah 53:7,8.
Jonah. Jonah 2:2

What about John the Baptist who said, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.' (John 1:29)

How could sin be taken away without the sacrificial lamb dying? Are you also rejecting John as a prophet of God?

Or are you going to try to say that all these passages must be alterations and mistakes?

Just how much of the scripture are you wanting to erase?

We don't deny Jesus peace be upon him as the prophet.

Regarding Jesus's peace be upon him death, yes he will die and that will be after his second coming.



Regarding this subject, here is my first arguement.

It all began with Jesus peace be upon him said that he came to fulfill the law.

According to the law, everything that is crucified would be cursed.

Deuteronomy 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

So being able to crucify Jesus peace be upon him would disprove who he was because if he did come to fulfill the law, he can't be cursed by that law.

This is a video that explains it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMat9Iz8dPE


Here is another argument.

The disciples has heard that Jesus peace be upon him was crucified and were not eyewitness

Mark 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.

So that the disciples , they had heard that he was DEAD AND BURIED FOR THREE DAYS. If one is confronted by a person with such a reputation then the conclusion is inescapable; they must be seeing A GHOST. Little wonder these ten brave men were petrified."

So now let us look at the verses.

Luke 24 36-37 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.


(They thought that Jesus peace be upon him was dead and they thought what they were seeing is a spirit. So Jesus peace be upon him wanted to prove to them that this is not the case.)

And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(He ate to prove what?)

Also

Acts 1:3 o whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: