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Jesus did not die on the Cross

Sabour

Well-Known Member
One-answer, first point. I agree that God is God and man is man. If a man receives God's spirit, as he receives and believes the Word of God, he does change his identity. He changes from a body-soul man into a body-soul-spirit man. The spirit of God is able to dwell in a man and make him a 'new creation'.
2 Corinthians 5:17: 'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'

You may not wish to believe this scripture but it is a reality for many thousands of born-again Christians, myself included.

There is only one true version of the Bible, and that's the one delivered to the prophets in the original languages. But thankfully, after hundreds of years of scholarship we are now able to come very close to recognising exactly what those original words were. I have confidence that as we study the scriptures carefully the truth will be discerned, even revealed.

You say that the words of Jesus are contradicted. Please quote me one example, and we will look closely at it together.

Please provide just ONE that you think undermines the Christian belief in an unbroken scripture. Maybe one relating to the OP would prevent us from being off-topic.

The point I was making that a man remains a man. Jesus peace be upon him was a man. He used to feel hunger and pain. If we would talk about a "new creation" I would say that this would only represent a transformation in the life of a person where he become closer to God and all his acts are derived from the love towards God. He begins seeking becoming closer to God and looking after eternal life or heaven in everything little thing he does in his life. Jesus peace be upon him was like that since he was born becuase he was a a prophet and that is how prophets act. They are people of the highest example that we can follow.

As for the scripture I am sorry if I sounded rude, but I would rather share the truth than not caring. As a muslim I will be asked on the day of Judgement if I delivered the message or not. Besides, Quraan says clearly to us to tell the Christians not to say three (trinity).

As for what you said for becoming closer to the original bible I am afraid I don't agree. I think the bible is getting further away from the original one as time is passing.

Take this for example

The only verse indicating trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one) has been removed from the bible by 32 scholars of the bible in the Revised Standard Version among many other verses as fabrication after they realized that these verses do not exist in the most ancient manuscript and as such there is not a single verse indicating Trinity anymore in the complete bible.


John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (This verse does not exist anymore in the RSV)



The fabrication of the Begotten Son

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript.

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (This word does not exist anymore in all Gospels in the RSV), so Jesus is not begotten by God where we find others still alleged to be begotten sons of God according to the bible. examples:

(if the word son, means begotten son )

David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {2:7} I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel[is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

So the term Son of God in the language of the Jews means godly person not actual son of God and does not mean divinity at all, examples:

All Jews are sons of God (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

All those who follow the spirit of God are sons of God (according to the bible). Romans A-V {8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


What did you mean by "Please provide just ONE that you think undermines the Christian belief in an unbroken scripture. " ? I didn't understand.

Regards
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
I agree that the process of translating the Bible has resulted in many inaccurate versions, but one has to weigh the benefits of bringing God's word to people in a language they can understand against the word being understood by a minority of Hebrew and Greek scholars. Much blood was spilt in Britain getting the Bible translated into English in order to make it available to the common man.

This same problem actually exists for Muslims, some of whom are unable to read or understand Arabic. Ultimately, there have to be translations and translators that earn the trust of the reader. This is why Arabic/English versions of the Qur'an are popular in this country.

One of the reasons that the King James Version is so popular in English is that it has been used and scrutinised by scholars for over 400 years. This means that many concordances and commentaries have used the wording of this Bible. There are inaccuracies in the English translation, but most of them have now been recognised and highlighted.

The reason that the RSV is not trustworthy is that it approved ancient manuscripts that were not part of the Received Text. These manuscripts may have been old but they were rejected by the earliest of Church authorities. The sad fact is, some were unearthed during the nineteenth century and were added to the English Revised Version (1881-85) and then to the American Standard Version (1901). Then, when the ASV underwent a further revision, to become the Revised Standard Version (published in 1951) these 'best results of modern scholarship' were used.

Thankfully, even where a small number of inaccuracies remain, it is still possible to have confidence in the scriptures. This is because the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments form a tapestry, and unbroken weave, that speaks truth. And we should not be surprised, for God is Truth.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
One-answer,
I agree that the process of translating the Bible has resulted in many inaccurate versions.

Your missing a little bit of truth in your statement.


Despite the changes, the overall story remains intact, and is very accurate to its original legend.

UNLIKE the koran which has no historical value at all towards jesus.

It is FACTULLY worthless for any truth in Jesus
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Let's not be confused by the idea of the trinity. The scriptures speak for themselves.

First and foremost, Christians believe in ONE God, the God that created the heaven and the earth.

God created with his WORD. 'Let there be light: and there was light.'

In John 1:1, this truth is made clear. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'

The Word arises from the Spirit. The two are one.

Then in John 1:14 it says, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

How can this be? The WORD was made FLESH. Scripture interprets itself. Scripture says, 'For in him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.'

So we are told. In the body of Jesus Christ the fulness of the spirit [Word] of God dwelt. So Jesus is a MAN, but he has within him the SPIRIT of GOD [his WORD in fulness].

Do we need this confirmed?

1 Corinthians 6:16,17:,'What know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.'

Jesus was joined to his Father as one spirit. That spirit is the spirit of life. (2 Corinthians 3:17) So when we are joined to Christ, his spirit or Word changes us into his likeness.

2 Corinthians 3:18, 'But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the spirit of the Lord.'

The Father (above) sent Jesus (amongst) that we might all be joined to him as ONE spirit (within).
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
I agree that the process of translating the Bible has resulted in many inaccurate versions, but one has to weigh the benefits of bringing God's word to people in a language they can understand against the word being understood by a minority of Hebrew and Greek scholars. Much blood was spilt in Britain getting the Bible translated into English in order to make it available to the common man.

This same problem actually exists for Muslims, some of whom are unable to read or understand Arabic. Ultimately, there have to be translations and translators that earn the trust of the reader. This is why Arabic/English versions of the Qur'an are popular in this country.

One of the reasons that the King James Version is so popular in English is that it has been used and scrutinised by scholars for over 400 years. This means that many concordances and commentaries have used the wording of this Bible. There are inaccuracies in the English translation, but most of them have now been recognised and highlighted.

The reason that the RSV is not trustworthy is that it approved ancient manuscripts that were not part of the Received Text. These manuscripts may have been old but they were rejected by the earliest of Church authorities. The sad fact is, some were unearthed during the nineteenth century and were added to the English Revised Version (1881-85) and then to the American Standard Version (1901). Then, when the ASV underwent a further revision, to become the Revised Standard Version (published in 1951) these 'best results of modern scholarship' were used.

Thankfully, even where a small number of inaccuracies remain, it is still possible to have confidence in the scriptures. This is because the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments form a tapestry, and unbroken weave, that speaks truth. And we should not be surprised, for God is Truth.

Redemptionsong

How much importance do you put on the fact that God Almighty has sent down Jesus peace be upon him to us to follow him?

How much importance do you put on us having the right message to follow?


Think about it that way, Would God send us prophets after prophets if it was for us to get the message wrong?

If God sent us a religion to follow, than it must be perfect and preserved. It must be error free because not only it is important for us while we are alive, it is still important while we are dead and it is also important on theJudgement day. It would be the one thing that will decide all these three I mentioned.

I appreciate what some people are doing trying to get the original translation but let us not forget that there are also people who are altering words on purpose and changing the meaning for personal goals.

Have you ever reflected on these verses


"... My people know not the judgment of Yahweh. How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Certainly has changed into a lie the lying pen of the scribes" (Jeremiah 8: 7-9).

"Woe to those who give wicked laws and scribes who write tyrannical prescriptions to set aside the poor and violate the rights of the underdog of my people, to rob widows and orphans" (Isaiah 10.1 -2)

"And the land is defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the commandments, broken the everlasting covenant" (Isaiah 24: 5-6).

"He says, therefore, the Lord: Because this people draw near me with their mouth, and honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men which have been taught" (Isaiah 29.13).

These show that there are changes.


This problem doesn't exist in Islam my friend for a simple reason that is Arabic is till now a living language.

Quraan has always been there with the people and any dot changed in the Quraan will directly be known because Quraan had been here since it was revealed.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Let's not be confused by the idea of the trinity. The scriptures speak for themselves.

First and foremost, Christians believe in ONE God, the God that created the heaven and the earth.

God created with his WORD. 'Let there be light: and there was light.'

In John 1:1, this truth is made clear. 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'

The Word arises from the Spirit. The two are one.

Then in John 1:14 it says, 'And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.'

How can this be? The WORD was made FLESH. Scripture interprets itself. Scripture says, 'For in him [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.'

So we are told. In the body of Jesus Christ the fulness of the spirit [Word] of God dwelt. So Jesus is a MAN, but he has within him the SPIRIT of GOD [his WORD in fulness].

Do we need this confirmed?

1 Corinthians 6:16,17:,'What know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.'

Jesus was joined to his Father as one spirit. That spirit is the spirit of life. (2 Corinthians 3:17) So when we are joined to Christ, his spirit or Word changes us into his likeness.

2 Corinthians 3:18, 'But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the spirit of the Lord.'

The Father (above) sent Jesus (amongst) that we might all be joined to him as ONE spirit (within).

Let me show you something.

See how you started with saying we believe in One God and than got Jesus peace be upon him in the equation?

As I have demonstrated I can show you many verses from the bible where Jesus peace be upon him denies divinity. Denying something explicitly makes it false no matter how much implicit statements you can put to support the claim because explicit statements right off implicit statements.

Now you would tell me that Jesus peace be upon him identity changed. Well that doesn't logically make sense because a man is a man and a God is a God. The first can't be the second. Of course God can make anything happen, but does He do anything?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
If you say that God is ONE and that God is transcendent but not immanent, you are saying that God creates but is, thereafter, forever alienated from his creation.

When God delivered his message to Muhammad, it is said that Muhammad recited the words of Gabriel. The words did not arise in the spirit of Muhammad, they were external to his being.

As I understand (but do correct me if I am wrong), Muslims would not claim to have God's SPIRIT dwelling within them. So, a Muslim is not claiming a personal relationship, the relationship of a son to a Father. Rather, the relationship is one of a slave, or a servant, to his master. Is that fair?

The message of the Bible, and the trinitarian conception, is that God is able to enter into a personal relationship with his creation. The son, who has gone astray, is encouraged back by a loving father. Ultimately, the son's repentance allows for a reunion and embrace. Spiritually, this embrace represents the indwelling spirit of God in everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ; not faith in him as a man, but faith in him as the Saviour and Word of God.
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
If you say that God is ONE and that God is transcendent but not immanent, you are saying that God creates but is, thereafter, forever alienated from his creation.

When God delivered his message to Muhammad, it is said that Muhammad recited the words of Gabriel. The words did not arise in the spirit of Muhammad, they were external to his being.

As I understand (but do correct me if I am wrong), Muslims would not claim to have God's SPIRIT dwelling within them. So, a Muslim is not claiming a personal relationship, the relationship of a son to a Father. Rather, the relationship is one of a slave, or a servant, to his master. Is that fair?

The message of the Bible, and the trinitarian conception, is that God is able to enter into a personal relationship with his creation. The son, who has gone astray, is encouraged back by a loving father. Ultimately, the son's repentance allows for a reunion and embrace. Spiritually, this embrace represents the indwelling spirit of God in everyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ; not faith in him as a man, but faith in him as the Saviour and Word of God.

Yes it is true, Muhammad peace be upon him said the words that were passed through Gabriel. But this is the way that God chose for things to be. But am afraid this proves nothing. Every prophet has miracles and if you are using that than I would like to remind you that Moses peace be upon him is the only prophet that spoke to God. What is that supposed to mean? He is still only a prophet.

As for what you asked, I can't discuss that literally as I don't have the proper knowledge to do so but I can tell you this hadith.

And My servant continues to draw nearer to Me with supererogatory (nawafil) prayers so that I shall love him. When I love him, I shall be his hearing with which he shall hear, his sight with which he shall see, his hands with which he shall hold, and his feet with which he shall walk. And if he asks (something) of Me, I shall surely give it to him, and if he takes refuge in Me, I shall certainly grant him it.’”

Here is a more detailed explanation

Hadith 38: The concept of Wilayah (the closer servants of Allah) |

We have many similarities between Christianity and Islam. More than you ever imagine. Our major difference though is the points we are discussing.


This is because all the prophets including Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them came to share the same message and that is worshiping Allah alone. The difference is that Muhammad peace be upon him was the last prophet and the Quraan was the last revelation and so it was reserved.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
You say, 'If God sent us a religion to follow, than it must be perfect and preserved. It must be error free because not only it is important for us while we are alive, it is still important while we are dead and it is also important on the Judgement day. It would be the one thing that will decide all these three I mentioned.'

You are quite right, and God did send us a religion that was error free. It is the religion delivered to Moses and the Israelites, and it is called the LAW. If you want an error free religion then follow the law of Moses.

Shall I stop there and allow you to convert to Judaism?

Islam is really a rival (Ismaelite) version of God's law. It sets forth a different set of laws, and a new set of punishments.

Jesus was a Jew, so he had his religion. He never said he was changing his religion. He did not come to abolish the law. He was circumcised on the eighth day, he returned to Jerusalem three times each year to celebrate the pilgrim festivals, he attended the synagogue in Nazareth. He did all that the law of God required of him. He fulfilled the law.

So did he want to start a new religion? No.

But you now want to tell me that the Law of Moses couldn't have been a perfect religion because the people were not able to please God or follow the Law.

Exactly, THE PEOPLE COULD NOT FOLLOW THE LAW, even though the law was perfect. And like the Jewish nation, the Muslim brotherhood also fall short of pleasing God.

God wants a holy people to be his people. This is something religion does not provide. Do you know why? It's because we are all sinners, and fall short of the glory of God.

Have you never broken any of the laws of your religion? Have you never missed a prayer, have you never committed a sin?

ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS WITHOUT SIN. Only Jesus is able to be the 'lamb of God', the perfect sacrifice for sin. No one else was good enough to please God - not even the prophets. None of the prophets were sinless.

To be without sin is to be the spirit of God.
Christ Jesus IS the spirit, or Word, of God.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
You cannot use mythology to fight mythology.


No religion is factually correct and truthful or accurate.


And it is off topic.


All credible research shows Jesus was crucified. End of story.


This muslim appeal to ignorance and mythology as credible history is pathetic as any other religion trying to explain history using mythology
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
One-answer,
You say, 'If God sent us a religion to follow, than it must be perfect and preserved. It must be error free because not only it is important for us while we are alive, it is still important while we are dead and it is also important on the Judgement day. It would be the one thing that will decide all these three I mentioned.'

You are quite right, and God did send us a religion that was error free. It is the religion delivered to Moses and the Israelites, and it is called the LAW. If you want an error free religion then follow the law of Moses.

Shall I stop there and allow you to convert to Judaism?

Islam is really a rival (Ismaelite) version of God's law. It sets forth a different set of laws, and a new set of punishments.

Jesus was a Jew, so he had his religion. He never said he was changing his religion. He did not come to abolish the law. He was circumcised on the eighth day, he returned to Jerusalem three times each year to celebrate the pilgrim festivals, he attended the synagogue in Nazareth. He did all that the law of God required of him. He fulfilled the law.

So did he want to start a new religion? No.

But you now want to tell me that the Law of Moses couldn't have been a perfect religion because the people were not able to please God or follow the Law.

Exactly, THE PEOPLE COULD NOT FOLLOW THE LAW, even though the law was perfect. And like the Jewish nation, the Muslim brotherhood also fall short of pleasing God.

God wants a holy people to be his people. This is something religion does not provide. Do you know why? It's because we are all sinners, and fall short of the glory of God.

Have you never broken any of the laws of your religion? Have you never missed a prayer, have you never committed a sin?

ONLY JESUS CHRIST IS WITHOUT SIN. Only Jesus is able to be the 'lamb of God', the perfect sacrifice for sin. No one else was good enough to please God - not even the prophets. None of the prophets were sinless.

To be without sin is to be the spirit of God.
Christ Jesus IS the spirit, or Word, of God.

Redemptionsong


I am a follower of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them all. Jesus peace be upon him didn't come with a new religion neither Muhammad peace be upon him did. As I explained, these were prophets of God who were sent by Him to share the message of worshiping God and only God. Quraan is the last revelation in that aspect.

Jesus peace be upon him said I didn't come to destroy the laws of the prophets, I came to fulfill it. Jesus peace be upon him also talked about the coming of a next prophet.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.


It is not the law's fault that people didn't follow it. It is human's fault because their desires and love for this world is the way they chose. People were given free will and God showed us the way that we must follow in order to be strong and by that way God will help us in keeping his commandments.

We all had sins even the holiest man among us did. But God is merciful and he gave us the chance to repent.
I am sure you are familiar with these terms. I am not inventing them, they are in Islam and they are the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him too.

Being a muslim doesn't automatically make you holy. But you have to seek truth with your heart and the truth shall free you. These are the words of Jesus Christ peace be upon him.

We are not all sinners. We are born to obey God in nature. But it is we who change and alter that. We are born as believers. That is why if a child died who didn't reach the age of being accountable for his own actions he would enter heaven. Because he is a believer in nature. He is not a sinner.The fact that people sin and choose to sin doesn't mean a person is a sinner. This is what I am 100 % against in the teachings of Christianity.


18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

What is this from the bible? It is how a person sin and how he repents. It is as if he is dead and than came to life.

Your suggestion that God wants us holy suggests that God would hold against us how he created us because you said humans are sinners. Do you really think that?

We have all sinned and we should repent. God accepts repentance from anyone if it is true for He know the intentions, He is the All Knowing.

We will be held accountable for our actions. We will be judged by our actions and faith side by side. It is not only faith alone, neither it is works alone. If that would have been the case God would replace our mind with more faith.

Besides do you think it is fair that only people who believe that Jesus peace be upon him died for their sins would enter heaven? Isn't it like a free ticket to heaven?

Please read this from the bible

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross

Arguments from Christians Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die and for what?

We are still discussing the above arguments, therefore, while writing a post please quote which argument you are commenting on for clarity of the viewers please.

Regards
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That is an unsubstantiated claim, faith based. And all real evidence post to a warrior plagiarizing previous mythology.

At least 5 billion people on the planet think your in error
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Topic title: Jesus did not die on the Cross
--------------------------------------------

Well who was it up there, a stunt man?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Topic title: Jesus did not die on the Cross
--------------------------------------------

Well who was it up there, a stunt man?

It was Jesus but he was delivered in near-dead position from the Cross. He survived death on the Cross as Jesus prayed from the One-True-God to save his life and his prayer was heard.

Regards
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Hi One-answer,
Let's take one point at a time.
You say that Jesus spoke about the coming of the next prophet, but I cannot find this in scripture. Nowhere does Jesus talk about another prophet coming, only a Comforter, whom you have interpreted to be a future prophet. But if we are to avoid private interpretation we must seek the answer to the identity of the Comforter within scripture itself.
John 14:16-20 'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.'
John 16:7, 'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient to you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.'
John 15:26, 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'
These three passages from John's gospel tell us quite a bit about the Comforter. The Comforter is, firstly, the Spirit of truth. It is NOT a man. This Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father and from Jesus Christ. It can only be sent once Jesus Christ has gone away. This Spirit will be with you, and IN you. And it must be the same Spirit that is IN Jesus, for he says 'and I WILL COME TO YOU'.

Can you now see why I wrote that Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of Truth, the Word of God?

How can this Spirit of truth possibly be Muhammad? Jesus was speaking to his disciples in the first century and was telling them that HE would come to THEM as the Spirit of truth. The disciples lived hundreds of years before Muhammad. How could the Spirit of truth, if it was Muhammad, go to the first century disciples? That is illogical. It's impossible.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It was Jesus but he was delivered in near-dead position from the Cross. He survived death on the Cross as Jesus prayed from the One-True-God to save his life and his prayer was heard.

Unsubstantiated dribble. :facepalm:


We told you to back your claims with credible sources, yet you utterly fail to use and logic or reason :facepalm:
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
It was Jesus but he was delivered in near-dead position from the Cross. He survived death on the Cross as Jesus prayed from the One-True-God to save his life and his prayer was heard.

Regards
Let's see you survive severe scourging, beating, carrying a massive cross/crossbeam for quite a ways, having nails driven through nerve bundles at the bases of your wrists and feet, and being suspended on a cross while you develop a lethal case of anaphylaxis, and then get speared through the chest, puncturing a lung and having even more blood and lung fluid drain out. And the other lung's still filled with anaphylactic fluid. Between the copious blood loss from being scourged, and having your side pierced with a lance, that blood loss is going to kill you along with the exhaustion, not to mention having flayed skin and perhaps even muscle and bone tissue exposed to the elements.

And then, even if you are somehow alive after all that (which the guards made sure you weren't), you're wrapped up, your wrappings are covered with fragrant oil which eventually hardens up into a sticky crust, and then you're placed in a tomb for three days without food or water. So not only do you lack food and water, but you may very well lack oxygen as well. If you somehow managed to survive the cross, you wouldn't survive entombment.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
paarswurrey,
Let's be reasonable.
I will only respond to more of your arguments once you have acknowledged the points made in Post 293. I have given ample evidence from scripture to show that Jonah WAS DEAD in the belly of the whale. You have failed to acknowledge that this is the truth of scripture.
 
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