Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Sabour]

Thank you, Jesus did 37 miracles, so why do muslims say he was just like other prophets?
And he said he was the Son of God, so why are muslims dishonouring him by not believing him?
And why don't muslims like Christians?
Look-
[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends.."

Well I dont know about the number of miracles but yes he did a lot of miracles. The first of which was speaking as a baby to defend the honor of the purest women on eath (Mary). We hold prophets on the same level and all of them had miracles and Jesus peace be upon him was one of the greatest prophets.

If we are speaking about the son of God from the bible than we are all the son of God. This is how the bible labels us Not that Jesus peace be upon him is a special son or begotten son. He was a prophet.


And about the verse it is only about the Jews and Christians who are fighting us.

60:8 Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Hi paarsurrey,
In post 293 (page 30) I responded to your post of 109. This was your first argument about Jesus not fulfilling the sign of Jonah.

I felt that you had not acknowledged the points made in this post, but instead had reverted to using references to Jonah in the Qur'an. But that was not the basis of your argument. You had stated that Jesus was using the sign of Jonah (Matthew 12:39,40) to suggest he would not die as the result of crucifixion, but would enter the grave alive. Your argument was based solely on biblical scripture. My response was also based solely on biblical scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Also in post 329, you say that there is no dilemma. But there is a dilemma if you accept even some of the Bible as God's word. The command from God not to mess with his word is found in the Torah (Deuteronomy) and in the New Testament (Revelation). This latter book was written by the apostle John, the same author as the Gospel of John, which you readily accept as scripture.

The dilemma therefore remains. Do you alter scripture to fit the Qur'an, or do you avoid God's wrath by leaving it untouched?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..We hold prophets on the same level and all of them had miracles and Jesus peace be upon him was one of the greatest prophets..

What made him one of the greatest?

Not that Jesus peace be upon him is a special son or begotten son..

But Jesus said he was the Son of God, and God said so too-
"This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
So who shall we believe, God and Jesus, or muslims?

 

[Sabour]

What made him one of the greatest?




But Jesus said he was the Son of God, and God said so too-
"This is my beloved son, listen to him" (Matt 17:5)
So who shall we believe, God and Jesus, or muslims?

His miracles, the way God raised him and his second coming to kill the the false Christ.

Friend if you really searching for an answer to that than see what Islam has to say about Jesus peace be upon him.

There is no difference between what God and Jesus peace be upon him says and what the muslims say.

No muslim is a muslim if he doesn't believe in Jesus peace be upon him. As well as all the other prophets.

Here try the "Jesus test" to know what I mean.

Jesus TEST? Why Do Christians Hate it?

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..Here try the "Jesus test" to know what I mean.

Jesus TEST? Why Do Christians Hate it?

Thanks but the test railroads us into giving only "Yes or No" answers, so there's no point me doing the test if I'm not allowed to answer in my own way!
For example if I were to ask you- "Is the sky blue, yes or no?", it's impossible to answer with a yes or no because sometimes its blue, sometimes its grey and cloudy, and at sunset it's orange, and at night it's black..

 

[Sabour]

Thanks but the test railroads us into giving only "Yes or No" answers, so there's no point me doing the test if I'm not allowed to answer in my own way!
For example if I were to ask you- "Is the sky blue, yes or no?", it's impossible to answer with a yes or no because sometimes its blue, sometimes its grey and cloudy, and at sunset it's orange, and at night it's black..

As you wish.

My point is not that you would take the test and see the result, I rather thought there are some interesting things to read about.

Let me put it in another way.

This is a reply of mine on the thread "The diety or man Jesus thread"


I am not a Christian but I will try to base my answers from the bible, and if you want or asked me too I can try to back them up from the Quraan and see if they match


1- Eternal life was granted through following the commandments and not through believing that Jesus peace be upon him died for your sins. ( The whole point behind the idea that Jesus peace be upon him was not a man so that dying on the cross and paying for our sins can be verified)

Luke 10:25-28

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted him, saying,
"Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the Law? How do you read?" And he answered saying, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbor as thyself." And he said unto him, "You have answered right; do this, and you shall live."

Matthew 5:17-19

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the prophets. I came not to destroy but rather to fulfill. For verily I tell you, not until all things be accomplished shall a single dot (jot, iota or tiny letter) in any way be lessened from the Law. And whoever breaks the least of the Commandments and teaches this will be the least in the Kingdom, but whoever keeps the Commandments and teaches this will be the highest in the Kingdom. And not unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharasees will you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."

Matthew 19:16-17

"And behold one came and said to him, Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but One, this God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


2- Jesus peace be upon him teached the followers to serve no other god except almighty God

Mark 12:29

And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is,
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall worship Him with all your strength and all your might and all your soul and all your heart."

Matthew 4:10

"Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shall worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall you serve."

3- Jesus peace be upon him forbid worshiping him

Matthew 15:9

"But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

John 4:23-24

"But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth."

4- Jesus peace be upon him denied divinity

John 14:28
"The Father is greater than I."

5- Jesus peace be upon him denied having power

John 8:28
"I do nothing of myself"

Acts 2:22

"Men of Israel listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you know."


6- Denying trinity

John 8:42
"If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me"

John 8:54

"If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honors me; of whom ye say, that he is your God"

John 20:17

". . . I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

7- Jesus peace be upon him as a prophet

Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.

John 4:19 The woman said unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What do you say of him, that he has opened your eyes? He said, He is a prophet.

8- The only verse indicating trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one) has been removed from the bible by 32 scholars of the bible in the Revised Standard Version among many other verses as fabrication after they realized that these verses do not exist in the most ancient manuscript and as such there is not a single verse indicating Trinity anymore in the complete bible.


John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (This verse does not exist anymore in the RSV)

9-The fabrication of the Begotten Son

The word begotten has been removed from all Gospels by the same bible scholars as fabrication after they realized that this word does not exist in the most ancient manuscript.

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (This word does not exist anymore in all Gospels in the RSV), so Jesus is not begotten by God where we find others still alleged to be begotten sons of God according to the bible. examples:

(if the word son, means begotten son )

David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {2:7} I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus (according to the bible). Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel[is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

So the term Son of God in the language of the Jews means godly person not actual son of God and does not mean divinity at all, examples:

All Jews are sons of God (according to the bible). Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

All those who follow the spirit of God are sons of God (according to the bible). Romans A-V {8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

The Koran says Jesus is not the son of God.
The Bible says he is.
So you see the Bible and the Koran are miles apart, and any discussion is therefore pretty pointless..

 

[Sabour]

The Koran says Jesus is not the son of God.
The Bible says he is.
So you see the Bible and the Koran are miles apart, and any discussion is therefore pretty pointless..

Bible says Jesus peace be upon him is the son of God as well as all of us are.

The thing that we don't agree with is the word "begotten" son which if you read my reply you would know that it was an addition to the bible.

Both the bible and the Quraan agree that Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet

 

[outhouse]

My point is not that you would take the test and see the result,

WHY?


You wont answer a single honest question about Abraham

 

[outhouse]

Both the bible and the Quraan agree that Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet

Your book has no credibility as all as being in any part accurate for any aspect of Jesus life. NONE

It is not used by any historians anywhere in any part of the world for any aspect.


The NT however is used because in some places it is our closest source to the possible events. :yes:

 

[steeltoes]

Oh, brother.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
I hope you don't mind me contributing to your conversation with Shuttlecraft.

You have posted a host of quotations claiming to show that Jesus Christ is not God. One of the problems of discussing Jesus' identity is that it unfolds over time, as do most revelations. Yet people talk about Jesus as if his identity remains static.

Galatians 4:4, 'But when the fulness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.'

Jesus was conceived miraculously (Luke 1:31), but he was born a human being. He was made under the law. His miraculous conception makes him the ONLY BEGOTTEN son of God. The Spirit of God fathered Jesus. Mary was a normal, but highly favoured, human being.

Jesus lived righteously under the law until he was about 30. At that time he was baptised by John and received the Holy Spirit from his Father in heaven.(Matt 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:33)

For the next three and a half years, Jesus walks by the Holy Spirit demonstrating the power of God in prophecy and miracles. There has clearly been a change in Jesus since the Holy Spirit lighted upon him. He is still a man but now he has the 'fulness of the Godhead bodily' (Colossians 2:9, 'For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily')

At this point in time he is the only begotten son of God, but also the Messiah, the Christ. Yet he has not been recognised as such by the nation of Jews. He dies, is resurrected, and ascends to sit upon the throne in heaven to reign.

Again, there are changes in status. Jesus has, up until his crucifixion, taken the form of a servant, although his true status is that of Messiah. This true status is captured in the wording above the cross, 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews'

When Jesus ascends to heaven, he is given all authority over heaven and earth. He takes his rightful place on the throne and is worshipped.(Daniel 7:13,14)

From the Father and Son comes the gift of Holy Spirit, the living spirit of God sent to dwell in each person who believes. This makes every believer a son (child) of God by adoption.

Jesus comes first to save, then a second time to judge.

If you are discussing the status of Jesus it's important to be able to answer the question, 'When was this in the life of Jesus?'

May I also point out that the RSV, which does not use the RECEIVED TEXT in Greek, is probably far less trustworthy than other traditional versions, such as the KJV.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..the word "begotten" son which if you read my reply you would know that it was an addition to the bible...

AARGH another consp-theory..

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
By way of example, allow me to pick on one verse that you quoted in your post.
John 4:23-24

"But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth."

This is an interesting passage and one worth considering carefully.

When do you think the true worshippers will begin to worship the Father 'in spirit and in truth'?

 

[Sabour]

One-answer,
I hope you don't mind me contributing to your conversation with Shuttlecraft.

I don't mind at all

You have posted a host of quotations claiming to show that Jesus Christ is not God. One of the problems of discussing Jesus' identity is that it unfolds over time, as do most revelations. Yet people talk about Jesus as if his identity remains static.

Based on that I disagree.

Identity can not change. A human is a human and God is God.

Human have needs like eating because he feels hungry and going to the bathroom when you know .... It doesn't happen that you would at one stage be a man and than become god.

The reason for such explanations as being half man and half god or changing overtime is the need to explain the bible as a whole even when the bible contradicts itself. This bible contradiction is being transferred to the identity of Jesus peace be upon him just to make the bible sound right.

The bible is not in its original language and you will find tons of version of the bible and different information in each version.

Fact is not everything in the bible is true.

There are explicit statements made by Jesus peace be upon him that are being contradicted by the bible in other places.

An example is being saved by believing that Jesus peace be upon him died for the sins and being saved by following the commandments.

Jesus was conceived miraculously (Luke 1:31), but he was born a human being. He was made under the law. His miraculous conception makes him the ONLY BEGOTTEN son of God. The Spirit of God fathered Jesus. Mary was a normal, but highly favoured, human being.

Prophets were associated with miracles so it is proved to people that they are prophets and people would follow them. The miraculous birth is simply one of those miracles. Another miracle for example is Jesus peace be upon him talking as a baby and defending the honor of the purest woman on earth Mary.

Adam was also created without a father and without a mother and Eve was created from Adam's rib. We don't consider them gods or something like that. After having Adam from neither a mother nor a father, and Eve without a mother, it was finally to send Jesus peace be upon him without a father.

Jesus lived righteously under the law until he was about 30. At that time he was baptised by John and received the Holy Spirit from his Father in heaven.(Matt 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:33)

The holy spirit is the angel Gabriel who came to tell Mary that she will be having Jesus peace be upon him. Gabriel is the same angel of revelation that cam to Muhammad peace be upon him. I don't know what baptised mean I don't think the special thing you are mentioning happened.

And let me add that all the prophets were living the message that they came to share with humanity

For the next three and a half years, Jesus walks by the Holy Spirit demonstrating the power of God in prophecy and miracles. There has clearly been a change in Jesus since the Holy Spirit lighted upon him. He is still a man but now he has the 'fulness of the Godhead bodily' (Colossians 2:9, 'For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily')

As I explained earlier, identity doesn't change. Even logically it doesn't make sense that God would choose this confusing way for us.

At this point in time he is the only begotten son of God, but also the Messiah, the Christ. Yet he has not been recognised as such by the nation of Jews. He dies, is resurrected, and ascends to sit upon the throne in heaven to reign.

Jesus peace be upon him was the Messiah, the Christ but he never was a begotten son. God neither begets nor he is begotten. God is not a man nor a son of man. Jesus peace be upon him was not crucified nor died, but God raised him.

I really wish you watch this video to know what I was talking about

[youtube]iHFgcRGIrH0[/youtube]
christian bursted in tears after Yusuf Estes answered his question! English subtitle - YouTube

Just listen to the part what lead Yusuf Estes to become a muslim and how he approached things in the bible

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer, first point. I agree that God is God and man is man. If a man receives God's spirit, as he receives and believes the Word of God, he does change his identity. He changes from a body-soul man into a body-soul-spirit man. The spirit of God is able to dwell in a man and make him a 'new creation'.
2 Corinthians 5:17: 'Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'

You may not wish to believe this scripture but it is a reality for many thousands of born-again Christians, myself included.

There is only one true version of the Bible, and that's the one delivered to the prophets in the original languages. But thankfully, after hundreds of years of scholarship we are now able to come very close to recognising exactly what those original words were. I have confidence that as we study the scriptures carefully the truth will be discerned, even revealed.

You say that the words of Jesus are contradicted. Please quote me one example, and we will look closely at it together.

Please provide just ONE that you think undermines the Christian belief in an unbroken scripture. Maybe one relating to the OP would prevent us from being off-topic.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus peace be upon him was not crucified nor died

Like much of your post, it is factually unsubstantiated.

You cannot substantiate it. And all credible historians disagree with you.

Adam was also created without a father

Is a mythological character and has no historicity outside mythology

 

[Godobeyer]

Like much of your post, it is factually unsubstantiated.

You cannot substantiate it. And all credible historians disagree with you.

What's your historians sources, that they based on ?

was not the their first source (maybe the only sources) is the NT ?

 

[outhouse]

What's your historians sources, that they based on ?

What's yours? provide credible evidence.