Jesus did not die on the Cross

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey, it's clear that when it suits you, you quote from the Bible, but as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an.

You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible. The two books are not compatible. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven. It also claims that Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac. These are clear contradictions.

Christians understand that the Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture. The Qur'an, on the other hand, being the word of one man, is totally reliant on the Bible to give it authority. But since it cannot be made to fit into God's design, without total distortions to the scripture, it should be obvious that it isn't the word of God. And that makes it a false prophecy.

You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible, purporting to be evidence that Jesus was not dead after crucifixion. The first of these, regarding Jonah, was clearly refuted by scripture, yet you failed to acknowledge this in your response. Instead, you resorted to the Qur'an. As I said, you cannot have it both ways, it's either the Bible or the Qur'an, not both.

 

[outhouse]

paarsurrey, it's clear that when it suits you, you quote from the Bible, but as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an.

You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible. The two books are not compatible. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven. It also claims that Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac. These are clear contradictions.

Christians understand that the Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture. The Qur'an, on the other hand, being the word of one man, is totally reliant on the Bible to give it authority. But since it cannot be made to fit into God's design, without total distortions to the scripture, it should be obvious that it isn't the word of God. And that makes it a false prophecy.

You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible, purporting to be evidence that Jesus was not dead after crucifixion. The first of these, regarding Jonah, was clearly refuted by scripture, yet you failed to acknowledge this in your response. Instead, you resorted to the Qur'an. As I said, you cannot have it both ways, it's either the Bible or the Qur'an, not both.

He is not here to debate.

Only to proselytize his unsubstantiated faith.


And yes he is hypocritical using and quote mining sources, he may be 11-12 years old.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey, it's clear that when it suits you, you quote from the Bible, but as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an.

You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible. The two books are not compatible. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven. It also claims that Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac. These are clear contradictions.

Christians understand that the Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture. The Qur'an, on the other hand, being the word of one man, is totally reliant on the Bible to give it authority. But since it cannot be made to fit into God's design, without total distortions to the scripture, it should be obvious that it isn't the word of God. And that makes it a false prophecy.

You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible, purporting to be evidence that Jesus was not dead after crucifixion. The first of these, regarding Jonah, was clearly refuted by scripture, yet you failed to acknowledge this in your response. Instead, you resorted to the Qur'an. As I said, you cannot have it both ways, it's either the Bible or the Qur'an, not both.

I have noted following points in your post:

1. "as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an
2. You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible.
3. The two books are not compatible
4. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven
5. Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac
6. Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture
7. You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible"

I have not yet finished my arguments; none of the arguments "Jesus did not die on the Cross" from Christian corrupted scripture has been closed by me.

All these arguments are still continuing, open and alive. I will add still more to them; don't you worry please.

Regards

 

[Redemptionsong]

outhouse, I respect the desire to be faithful to God but I believe all Muslims are caught in an unenviable position. They want to justify their scriptures but REQUIRE the Bible to do so.

Muhammad claimed to be the final prophet. This would make him one of a series, and would also make him the culmination of all prophecy.

I guess that's why Deuteronomy 18:18 becomes such a vital scripture for Muslims. It points to a future prophet of great importance, without naming the prophet. But it does state that the prophet will be from among his brethren or 'from the midst of thee'.

This tells me that the prophet must be from the tribes of Israel. Doesn't that exclude Muhammad?

 

[outhouse]

This tells me that the prophet must be from the tribes of Israel. Doesn't that exclude Muhammad?

Yes it does.


But they claim the bible is corrupted, because they cannot face the reason and logic in the book.

They have to claim it is wrong.

 

[outhouse]

I have not yet finished my arguments;

You don't have any


You only proselytize.

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey, I suggested in an earlier post that we should not move on to new arguments before we conclude the first!

So we looked at the first argument, which was based on the sign of Jonah, and I provided the evidence from scripture that Jonah HAD DIED in the belly of the fish. It therefore follows that Jesus also had to die to fulfil the sign.

What bit of the scripture do you not accept as indicating this truth?

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
It is only possible to claim that the scriptures are wrong, or corrupted, if you are also prepared to show WHERE those corruptions are to be found.

Highlighting corruptions in the text of the Bible does become a tricky business when you are also using the same scriptures to justify Muhammad's status as a true prophet of God.

The art must be to pick the parts that are incompatible with the Qur'an without destroying the vital link that needs to be established between Muhammad and all previous prophets of God.

The challenge is there. But please don't overlook God's clear and undeniable warnings regarding his precious word! [Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18]

The dilemma is yours. Tread carefully.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey,
It is only possible to claim that the scriptures are wrong, or corrupted, if you are also prepared to show WHERE those corruptions are to be found.

Highlighting corruptions in the text of the Bible does become a tricky business when you are also using the same scriptures to justify Muhammad's status as a true prophet of God.

The art must be to pick the parts that are incompatible with the Qur'an without destroying the vital link that needs to be established between Muhammad and all previous prophets of God.

The challenge is there. But please don't overlook God's clear and undeniable warnings regarding his precious word! [Deuteronomy 4:2 and Revelation 22:18]
The dilemma is yours. Tread carefully.

There is no dilemma. To find mystery in everything is an old trick of Paul (the Church and their associates). It is very simple and obvious.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey, I suggested in an earlier post that we should not move on to new arguments before we conclude the first!

So we looked at the first argument, which was based on the sign of Jonah, and I provided the evidence from scripture that Jonah HAD DIED in the belly of the fish. It therefore follows that Jesus also had to die to fulfil the sign.

What bit of the scripture do you not accept as indicating this truth?

Please give your post number.

Regards

 

[Shuttlecraft]

Incidentally, atheists are always claiming that Jesus's existence is doubtful because he's not mentioned outside the Bible.
Have they forgotten that he's mentioned in the Koran?..

[Koran 2.253]- "We have made some of these apostles to excel the others, among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by many degrees of rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa [Jesus] son of Marium [Mary], and strengthened him with the holy spirit.."

 

[outhouse]

Incidentally, atheists are always claiming that Jesus's existence is doubtful

No only a vast minority claim this, and they are laughed at by the majority of atheist.

So you are wrong again.

because he's not mentioned outside the Bible.
Have they forgotten that he's mentioned in the Koran?..

That book has no historical value what so ever for jesus.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

(re atheists claiming Jesus didn't exist)- No only a vast minority claim this, and they are laughed at by the majority of atheist.
So you are wrong again.
(re the Koran speaking of Jesus)-That book has no historical value what so ever for jesus.

Thanks mate, firstly let me just make a note- "Most atheists believe Jesus existed", have I understood you correctly?

Secondly, in that case why are you doubting the Koran when it too says Jesus existed?

 

[outhouse]

Thanks mate, firstly let me just make a note- "Most atheists believe Jesus existed", have I understood you correctly?

Yes. As a man only

Secondly, in that case why are you doubting the Koran when it too says Jesus existed?

It factually has no historical value towards jesus


written over 600 years after his death, by people that didn't know anything about him, that only used the NT to create their fiction

 

[Shuttlecraft]

(re Jesus) a man only.

(re the Koran)-It factually has no historical value towards jesus
written over 600 years after his death, by people that didn't know anything about him, that only used the NT to create their fiction

If Jesus was just an ordinary man from a woodwork shop, how do atheists explain how he went on to become the most famous dood on the planet?

As for muslims,they don't believe he was the son of God, but even 600 years after his death he was still such a big name that the Koran dare not simply ignore him..
Likewise the Jews weren't too fond of him, but they too dare not ignore him in their medieval 'Toledot Yeshu' ('Life of Jesus') manuscript.
In short, he was TOO BIG to be ignored..
Likewise, if you bought a boxed set of "The History of Rock n' Roll" vids and found that Elvis wasn't in there, you'd demand a refund, right Elv?

"Uh-huh"..

 

[Sabour]

If Jesus was just an ordinary man from a woodwork shop, how do atheists explain how he went on to become the most famous dood on the planet?

Muslims don't like him because they don't believe he was the son of God, but even 600 years after his death he was still such a big name that the Koran dare not simply ignore him..
Likewise the Jews didn't like him, but they too dare not ignore him in their medieval 'Toledot Yeshu' ('Life of Jesus')

I mean, if you bought a boxed set of "The History of Rock n' Roll" vids and found that Elvis wasn't in there, you'd demand a refund, right Elv?

"Uh-huh"..

Sorry to interrupt, but who said muslims don't like him? Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet in Islam just like Muhammad peace be upon him and like the other prophets.

The major difference is that we believe he is a prophet and not a "begotten" son of God. Muslims may agree that he was a son of God if it was established that we are all sons of God.

As a matter of fact anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus peace be upon him or hates him is not a muslim. How can we hate a prophet while prophets were examples to follow? We hold prophets in the highest level of mankind and they were examples to follow. They are who God chose to share the message with us of worshiping God and only God.


What you said is a major misconception about Islam and I hope I clarified it

 

[outhouse]

If Jesus was just an ordinary man from a woodwork shop,

First of all, he was probably not a woodworker, Nazareth had very little wood in or around it.


Tekton translates to displaced hand worker doing odd jobs. It was one step above a beggar. same for his fishermen friends, one step above a beggar.

how do atheists explain how he went on to become the most famous dood on the planet?

Atheist don't


You understand what a scholar is?


They are unbiased historians, some catholic. There is no credible historical claim for anything other then a man.


Historical jesus is not biblical jesus, learn the difference.


He was martyred after his death by people who did not know him but witnessed his death, this generated mythology, its the same mythology you read today

 

[Shuttlecraft]

(re Jesus)..who said muslims don't like him? Jesus peace be upon him was a prophet in Islam just like Muhammad peace be upon him and like the other prophets...

Thank you, Jesus did 37 miracles, so why do muslims say he was just like other prophets?
And he said he was the Son of God, so why are muslims dishonouring him by not believing him?
And why don't muslims like Christians?
Look-
[Koran 5.51] "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends.."

 

[Shuttlecraft]

First of all, he was probably not a woodworker...

STOP! one conspiracy theory per day is all I can handle without splitting my sides rofling, you're a funny guy..

 

[outhouse]

STOP! one conspiracy theory per day is all I can handle without splitting my sides rofling, you're a funny guy..

Im sorry your completely ignorant to the historical aspects of jesus. And the study of his historicity.

If you would like to learn about this I can help you.


I quote Johnathon Reed professor of archeology who is doing the most recent work in Galilee


Who are you quoting?