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Jesus did not die on the Cross

outhouse

Atheistically
So you believe and take it personal, and anyone that doesn't believe as you do is ignorant, we get that.

red herring.

I believe you provide biased opinion, with no credibility and or credible sources EVER backing your unsubstantiated replies.


I have provided a credible source on the topic, in which you factually have no credibility to denounce.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
red herring.

I believe you provide biased opinion, with no credibility and or credible sources EVER backing your unsubstantiated replies.


I have provided a credible source on the topic, in which you factually have no credibility to denounce.
You provide church propaganda as fact, good for you.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Originally Posted by outhouse
red herring.

I believe you provide biased opinion, with no credibility and or credible sources EVER backing your unsubstantiated replies.


I have provided a credible source on the topic, in which you factually have no credibility to denounce.


You provide church propaganda as fact, good for you.

You make a good point.

Regards
 

outhouse

Atheistically
you just keep proselytizing garbage


Jesus has historicity as being crucified. It is in every encyclopedia as fact.



Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross


Sixth Argument from the Christian scriptures.(continued)

Who wanted Jesus to be crucified?

1. The Jews to prove that Jesus was a false prophet.
2. The selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins.

Jesus never wanted to be crucified till death; he was forced on to it by the Jews but G-d saved his life.

The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.

Regards
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Jesus did not die on the Cross


Sixth Argument from the Christian scriptures.(continued)

Who wanted Jesus to be crucified?

1. The Jews to prove that Jesus was a false prophet.
2. The selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins.

Jesus never wanted to be crucified till death; he was forced on to it by the Jews but G-d saved his life.

The creed that "Jesus died a cursed death on the Cross" is a fabrication of Paul, the Church and their associates and has got nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings.

Regards

Garbage not credible. It does not refute anything regurgitating vomit.



you just keep proselytizing garbage


Jesus has historicity as being crucified. It is in every encyclopedia as fact.



Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross

Arguments from Christians Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? From post #246

a. The selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. 6th argument continued from post # 288.


Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die and for what?

We are still discussing the above arguments, therefore, while writing a post please quote which argument you are commenting on for clarity of the viewers please.

Regards
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
you just keep proselytizing garbage


Jesus has historicity as being crucified. It is in every encyclopedia as fact.



Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
 

steeltoes

Junior member
you just keep proselytizing garbage


Jesus has historicity as being crucified. It is in every encyclopedia as fact.



Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Despite divergent scholarly opinions on the construction of portraits of the historical Jesus, almost all modern scholars consider his baptism and crucifixion to be historical facts
Of course they do, and who would doubt them, could a billion flies be wrong?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
paarsurrey, I am sorry that this thread has descended into a personal slanging match. The subject matter is important.

Let's look at each of the points you raise, one at a time.

'1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah. Please read the argument from post # 109.

In post 109 you say that Jonah:

1. entered in the belly of the fish alive;
2. remained in the belly of the fish alive,
3. came out from the belly of the fish alive and
4. went to his people and they saw him alive; just in the same body in which he was before he went into the belly.

So must Jesus.'

Jesus said that this was a sign, which means that there is a connection, and that connection is to do with his [Jesus'] death. I think we agree that Jesus does not have to enter the belly of a great fish to fulfil the prohecy!

The words of scripture do not tell us whether Jonah died when he was thrown into the sea by the mariners on board the ship. But the mariners did say,'O Lord we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood:' [Remember these words when you think about Jesus]

It then says, 'So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.' It then goes on to say that Jonah was swallowed up and remained in the belly of the fish for three days and nights.

At this point we may not be certain as to whether Jonah was dead or alive. The next verses, however, can give us absolute certainty that Jonah MUST HAVE DIED when he entered the belly of the great fish.

Jonah 2:1,2 says that Jonah prayed to the Lord out of the belly - 'out of the belly of hell cried I'. This means he was in the grave, in sheol, the place of dead souls. The symbolism of death continues with the words, 'For thou hast cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas: and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.' For those familiar with the book of Revelation, the picture of the new heaven and earth is one where 'there was no more sea' - no more death.

Is that enough to convince you of the truth? If you need further persuasion, then look at verse 6. It says, 'I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

Now don't be dishonest, paarsurrey. Look at these words and take them in. Does it say that he was in a state of CORRUPTION? It does. This means that his body was dead. It was his SOUL that was calling out to God from the grave. And God, who hears these prayers, raised him to life.

'And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.' (Jonah 2:10)

Now Jonah is ALIVE again. Hence it says, 'AND the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time...'

So, to reinforce the truth of this scripture. Jesus must DIE, be in the grave for three days and nights, and be raised to life again. This is the sign of Jonah.

paarsurrey, I'm not willing to move on to the next point until I have confirmation that you accept this reasoning. If you do not accept it, I want to know exactly what it is you disagree with.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey, I am sorry that this thread has descended into a personal slanging match. The subject matter is important.

Let's look at each of the points you raise, one at a time.

'1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah. Please read the argument from post # 109.

In post 109 you say that Jonah:

1. entered in the belly of the fish alive;
2. remained in the belly of the fish alive,
3. came out from the belly of the fish alive and
4. went to his people and they saw him alive; just in the same body in which he was before he went into the belly.

So must Jesus.'

Jesus said that this was a sign, which means that there is a connection, and that connection is to do with his [Jesus'] death. I think we agree that Jesus does not have to enter the belly of a great fish to fulfil the prohecy!

The words of scripture do not tell us whether Jonah died when he was thrown into the sea by the mariners on board the ship. But the mariners did say,'O Lord we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood:' [Remember these words when you think about Jesus]

It then says, 'So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.' It then goes on to say that Jonah was swallowed up and remained in the belly of the fish for three days and nights.

At this point we may not be certain as to whether Jonah was dead or alive. The next verses, however, can give us absolute certainty that Jonah MUST HAVE DIED when he entered the belly of the great fish.

Jonah 2:1,2 says that Jonah prayed to the Lord out of the belly - 'out of the belly of hell cried I'. This means he was in the grave, in sheol, the place of dead souls. The symbolism of death continues with the words, 'For thou hast cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas: and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.' For those familiar with the book of Revelation, the picture of the new heaven and earth is one where 'there was no more sea' - no more death.

Is that enough to convince you of the truth? If you need further persuasion, then look at verse 6. It says, 'I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.'

Now don't be dishonest, paarsurrey. Look at these words and take them in. Does it say that he was in a state of CORRUPTION? It does. This means that his body was dead. It was his SOUL that was calling out to God from the grave. And God, who hears these prayers, raised him to life.

'And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.' (Jonah 2:10)

Now Jonah is ALIVE again. Hence it says, 'AND the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time...'

So, to reinforce the truth of this scripture. Jesus must DIE, be in the grave for three days and nights, and be raised to life again. This is the sign of Jonah.

paarsurrey, I'm not willing to move on to the next point until I have confirmation that you accept this reasoning. If you do not accept it, I want to know exactly what it is you disagree with.

Just to make it clear that I was not involved into any personal slanging.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
OK, but more importantly, what about the death of Jonah. Do you accept that he was dead in the belly of the fish?

Quran mentions :

[21:88] And remember Dha’l-Nun*, when he went away in anger, and he thought that We would never cause him distress and he cried out in depths of darkness, saying, ‘There is no God but Thou, Holy art Thou. I have indeed been of the wrongdoers.’
[21:89] So We heard his prayer and delivered him from the distress. And thus do We deliver the believers.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

*Dha’l-Nun literally means "the man of the Fish” is the name of the Prophet Jonah or Yunus.

Regards
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course they do, and who would doubt them, could a billion flies be wrong?
Apply Occam's Razor here. What makes more sense: That a man who is documented as having been crucified actually died (because the precedent is that Romans always killed those whom they crucified), or that somehow, "a miracle occurred" and Jesus was taken down before he died, then several different sources claim that he did die? Which carries the least assumptions?

Sure, the scholars could be wrong. But chances are nearly overwhelming that they're not.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
His warrior who could only find a 9 year olds to steal love from, and then plagiarized mythology he knew about.


So now he has to attack others beliefs to proselytize his unsubstantiated pseudo history
 
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