Jesus did not die on the Cross

[paarsurrey]

Let's see you survive severe scourging, beating, carrying a massive cross/crossbeam for quite a ways, having nails driven through nerve bundles at the bases of your wrists and feet, and being suspended on a cross while you develop a lethal case of anaphylaxis, and then get speared through the chest, puncturing a lung and having even more blood and lung fluid drain out. And the other lung's still filled with anaphylactic fluid.

And then, even if you are somehow alive after all that (which the guards made sure you weren't), you're wrapped up, your wrappings are covered with fragrant oil which eventually hardens up into a sticky crust, and then you're placed in a tomb for three days without food or water. So not only do you lack food and water, but you may very well lack oxygen as well. If you somehow managed to survive the cross, you wouldn't survive entombment.

I think followers of Paul are better suited to do such drill.

I understand many do it in Philippines and they don't die:

CATHOLICS NAILED TO CROSSES IN THE PHILIPPINES IN MOCKING RE-ENACTMENT OF JESUS’ DEATH​

NTEB News Desk | April 6, 2012

From the Washington Post: Nine Catholic devotees in the Philippines marked Good Friday by reenacting the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, with real nails driven through their hands and feet as villagers dressed as Roman centurions and thousands of others looked on. The devotees say they endure the pain to give thanks, atone for their sins and pray during Holy Week.

“I feel good because my suffering has ended,” Ruben Enaje, a 51-year-old sign painter, told the Associated Press. Enaje went through his 26th crucifixion this year after recently surviving a fall from a building. The annual event, held this year in the northern province of Pampanga, is opposed by Catholic Church leaders in the Philippines and around the world, who say that there is no reason to go through this pain.

Catholics Nailed To Crosses In The Philippines In Mocking Re-enactment Of Jesus' Death - Now The End Begins : Now The End Begins

They do it in Philippines and they don't die.
Do they?

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Unsubstantiated dribble.


We told you to back your claims with credible sources, yet you utterly fail to use and logic or reason


Not recreation of a Roman crucifixion

 

[paarsurrey]

paarswurrey,
Let's be reasonable.
I will only respond to more of your arguments once you have acknowledged the points made in Post 293. I have given ample evidence from scripture to show that Jonah WAS DEAD in the belly of the whale. You have failed to acknowledge that this is the truth of scripture.

I have started a separate thread titled “Was Jonah dead in the belly of the fish/whale?”.

One may like to discuss one’s thoughts in the thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/168608-jonah-dead-belly-fish-whale.html

Regards

 

[Shiranui117]

I think followers of Paul are better suited to do such drill.

I understand many do it in Philippines and they don't die:

CATHOLICS NAILED TO CROSSES IN THE PHILIPPINES IN MOCKING RE-ENACTMENT OF JESUS’ DEATH​

NTEB News Desk | April 6, 2012

From the Washington Post: Nine Catholic devotees in the Philippines marked Good Friday by reenacting the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, with real nails driven through their hands and feet as villagers dressed as Roman centurions and thousands of others looked on. The devotees say they endure the pain to give thanks, atone for their sins and pray during Holy Week.

“I feel good because my suffering has ended,” Ruben Enaje, a 51-year-old sign painter, told the Associated Press. Enaje went through his 26th crucifixion this year after recently surviving a fall from a building. The annual event, held this year in the northern province of Pampanga, is opposed by Catholic Church leaders in the Philippines and around the world, who say that there is no reason to go through this pain.

Catholics Nailed To Crosses In The Philippines In Mocking Re-enactment Of Jesus' Death - Now The End Begins : Now The End Begins

They do it in Philippines and they don't die.
Do they?

Regards

1: They aren't up on the cross very long, and are taken down before they start to suffer the full effects of crucifixion--the length of a procession, then they're taken down. They are also immediately treated for their wounds.
2: They aren't heavily scourged with iron barbs and bone hooks leading to extreme blood loss and flaying of skin like Jesus was.
3: They don't have spears driven into them to make sure they're dead.

 

[Stovepipe_Hat]

Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it. Does it? Your thoughts please; anybody believing in a religion or no religion.

Some of our friends in another thread want to discuss with reference to Quranic Chapter 3:49 and Quranic Chapter 19:22-26.

We will discuss it from chapter Number.3. Aal-e-`Imran, the first quoted by our friend.

Regards

1. The Quran made note of the existence of scriptural traditions from both its Abrahimic predecessors –Judaism and Christianity. Only Christianity is fully invested in the crucifixion.

2. Quran 3:33: “Say, ‘Obey Allah and the Messenger;’ but if they turn away, then remember that Allah loves not the disbelievers.” This concludes the previous discussion segment. Quran is not fully linear, so this need not be related to what follows. This sentence could reflect reaction to the 90 years of Eastern Christian church advice against heterodoxy since Justinian (on the contra opinion with respect to the new Muslim perspective of 640 AD), although I don’t have scholarly support for a claim. However, Quran tradition had to have possessed this information, and such a response isn’t surprising.

2. Quran 3:49 is then part of a longer passage starting from 3:34 with the birth narratives familiar to readers of Luke. 3:45 suggests casting lots to determine who would become Mary’s guardian. 3:46 describes Jesus as the (Jewish) Messiah. The subject pronoun “he” in 3:49 refers to Allah (God). The object pronoun “him” in 3:50 refers to Jesus, who will “come to you with a Sign from your Lord…if you be believers.”

3. Quran 19 continues the birth narrative. Quran 19:28 comments on suspicion by Mary’s receivers in connection with the chastity norms: “Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, ‘O Mary, thou hast brought forth a strange thing.’” In miracle, the infant Jesus states to the receivers at 19:31: “He said, ‘I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet…,’” and predicts that “peace there will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.’” (19:34).

4. Doubt among the 7th century followers of Allah commences at this point. Quran 19:35: “Such was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth about which they doubt.” 19:36: “It does not befit the Majesty of Allah to take unto Himself a son.” Because the creative method of God from Genesis forward had been that “…When He decrees a thing, He says to it, ‘Be!’, and it is” (19:36).

However, the events in question were 600 years ago back then. Why would they have believed in the crucifixion if Jesus as prophet was what they wished to bring into their new tradition? Therefore, the Quran takes up the birth narrative instead.

~And Regards to you also

 

[Shuttlecraft]

From the Washington Post: Nine Catholic devotees in the Philippines marked Good Friday by reenacting the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, with real nails driven through their hands and feet..

A Brit TV presenter went over there in 2006 to be crucified but chickened out, haha..

News report about him-
Crucify me? Sorry, I've changed my mind
It probably seemed a good idea when he punted it to television chiefs.
But faced with a cross, a set of 4in nails and a man with a hammer, and surrounded by bleeding self-flagellants, Dominik Diamond's plans to be crucified during one of Easter's most brutal religious ceremonies literally ended in tears yesterday.
The Scottish DJ, presenter and tabloid columnist, who had travelled with a television crew in tow to the Philippines village of San Pedro Cutud to take part in the bloody annual re-enactment of Christ's crucifixion, took fright and fled when it came to his turn to be nailed to his cross in front of a 10,000-strong crowd..

Full article- Crucify me? Sorry, I've changed my mind - Telegraph

 

[Sabour]

Hi One-answer,
Let's take one point at a time.
You say that Jesus spoke about the coming of the next prophet, but I cannot find this in scripture. Nowhere does Jesus talk about another prophet coming, only a Comforter, whom you have interpreted to be a future prophet. But if we are to avoid private interpretation we must seek the answer to the identity of the Comforter within scripture itself.
John 14:16-20 'And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.'
John 16:7, 'Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient to you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.'
John 15:26, 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'
These three passages from John's gospel tell us quite a bit about the Comforter. The Comforter is, firstly, the Spirit of truth. It is NOT a man. This Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father and from Jesus Christ. It can only be sent once Jesus Christ has gone away. This Spirit will be with you, and IN you. And it must be the same Spirit that is IN Jesus, for he says 'and I WILL COME TO YOU'.

Can you now see why I wrote that Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of Truth, the Word of God?

How can this Spirit of truth possibly be Muhammad? Jesus was speaking to his disciples in the first century and was telling them that HE would come to THEM as the Spirit of truth. The disciples lived hundreds of years before Muhammad. How could the Spirit of truth, if it was Muhammad, go to the first century disciples? That is illogical. It's impossible.

What you said is gold. We must see the meaning of comforter in the scripture. Christians claim to be talking about the holy spirit or holy ghost. Let us review.


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"


John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you."

In John 16:7-14 we notice that there is a condition of Jesus peace be upon him going away so that the comforter would come. This doesn't apply to what you would call the holy spirit. Also the holy spirit is not a "he"


I wish you would go to this link and read There is so much explanation about that

Muhammad in the Gospel of John

 

[Muffled]

paarsurrey, it's clear that when it suits you, you quote from the Bible, but as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an.

You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible. The two books are not compatible. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven. It also claims that Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac. These are clear contradictions.

Christians understand that the Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture. The Qur'an, on the other hand, being the word of one man, is totally reliant on the Bible to give it authority. But since it cannot be made to fit into God's design, without total distortions to the scripture, it should be obvious that it isn't the word of God. And that makes it a false prophecy.

You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible, purporting to be evidence that Jesus was not dead after crucifixion. The first of these, regarding Jonah, was clearly refuted by scripture, yet you failed to acknowledge this in your response. Instead, you resorted to the Qur'an. As I said, you cannot have it both ways, it's either the Bible or the Qur'an, not both.

I did not find this in the Qu'ran. Do you have a quote?

I believe the verse states that the Jews did not crudicy Jesus and that is correct. I find no verse that says Jesus went into the heavens at the crucifixion but qoute one if you find one.

I believe they are compatible if understood.

 

[Muffled]

I have noted following points in your post:

1. "as soon as you find the words of the Bible uncomfortable you resort to the Qur'an
2. You cannot believe BOTH the Qur'an and the Bible.
3. The two books are not compatible
4. The Qur'an states that Jesus was not crucified but was raised straight to heaven
5. Abraham took Ishmael to be sacrificed, not Isaac
6. Bible can stand alone, an unbroken scripture
7. You gave a series of arguments, based on the Bible"

I have not yet finished my arguments; none of the arguments "Jesus did not die on the Cross" from Christian corrupted scripture has been closed by me.

All these arguments are still continuing, open and alive. I will add still more to them; don't you worry please.

Regards

I don't believe the scripture is corrupted but I do believe Muslims venerate that myth as though it were true.

 

[Muffled]

There is no dilemma. To find mystery in everything is an old trick of Paul (the Church and their associates). It is very simple and obvious.

Regards

I believe Paul did no resort to trickery and that he did not find mystery in everything. I believe anyone can spout nonsense about anyone but no-one here is likely to see that nonsense as obvious.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Muffled,
Sura 4:157,158. This states clearly that Jesus was not crucified. Verse 158 says that Jesus was raised up into the heavens. (Translation By Muhammad Al-Hilali)

Sura 37:100-107 tells the story of Abraham's intended sacrifice and trial. Notice that in verse 101, the son appears to be his only son at the time, un-named.
His eldest son, named in Sura 2:126 is also helping with the construction of the Ka'ba. Is it not Ishmael?
Ask a Muslim here who was taken to be sacrificed - what does he say?

 

[paarsurrey]

I did not find this in the Qu'ran. Do you have a quote?

I believe the verse states that the Jews did not crudicy Jesus and that is correct. I find no verse that says Jesus went into the heavens at the crucifixion but qoute one if you find one.

I believe they are compatible if understood.

Your understanding of Quran is better than of our friend Redemptionsong. Quran does not mention:

1. That Jesus was not put on the Cross. Quran just mentions that the intended result of Crucifixion (death by way of Crucifixion) did not get accomplished; Jesus' death on Cross did not occur.
2. Quran does not mention as you say that “Jesus went into the heavens at the crucifixion”


Regards

 

[Shuttlecraft]

When the guy on the cross next to Jesus said to him-
"Hey man I got no beef with you, remember me will ya?"
Jesus replied-
"Chill dood, today you'll be with me in paradise"

That's interesting on two counts, firstly heaven/paradise is just a quick "same day flight" away, and secondly none of us need years of bible study to get a ticket, all we need do is MAKE THE CONNECTION with Jesus like the guy on the cross did.
Mindmeld with JC and we're home free..

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

 

[Nada]

When the guy on the cross next to Jesus said to him-
"Hey man I got no beef with you, remember me will ya?"
Jesus replied-
"Chill dood, today you'll be with me in paradise"

That's interesting on two counts, firstly heaven/paradise is just a quick "same day flight" away, and secondly none of us need years of bible study to get a ticket, all we need do is MAKE THE CONNECTION with Jesus like the guy on the cross did.
Mindmeld with JC and we're home free..

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was the Paradise of Luke 23:43 heaven or some part of heaven?

The Bible does not agree with the view that Jesus and the evildoer went to heaven on the day that Jesus spoke to him. Jesus had foretold that, after his being killed, he would not be raised up until the third day. (Luke 9:22) During that three-day period he was not in heaven, because following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3, 6-11.

The evildoer did not meet the requirements to go to heaven even at some later time. He was not “born again”—being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God’s spirit. Holy spirit was not poured out upon Jesus’ disciples until more than 50 days after the evildoer’s death. (John 3:3, 5; Acts 2:1-4) On the day of his death, Jesus had made with those ‘who had stuck with him in his trials’ a covenant for a heavenly kingdom. The evildoer had no such record of faithfulness and was not included.—Luke 22:28-30.


Paradise — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

When Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in paradise with him, he was simply telling this evildoer that one day, when all are resurrected,Jesus would not forget this man.
Paradise is on earth,not in heaven.
Although Heaven is not on earth,Jesus will rule over the new Kingdom, on earth, from Heaven.This will be so for 1,000 years, and then once all have been made perfect,Jesus will hand over the Kingdom back to God forever.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..When Jesus told the evildoer that he would be in paradise with him, he was simply telling this evildoer that one day, when all are resurrected,Jesus would not forget this man. Paradise is on earth,not in heaven..

Whoa mate, that's just Jehovah's Witness stuff you're giving us, and they're just a tiny minority of Christians with their own beliefs..
Like I said, the guy on the cross said-
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42/43)

So if you don't believe him you'd better tell him he's wrong when you meet him..

 

[Nada]

Whoa mate, that's just Jehovah's Witness stuff you're giving us, and they're just a tiny minority of Christians with their own beliefs..
Like I said, the guy on the cross said-
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:42/43)

So if you don't believe him you'd better tell him he's wrong when you meet him..

Oh it has nothing at all to do with the JW's.These words in the holy scriptures were written thousands of years ago.

The Bible does not agree with the view that Jesus and the evildoer went to heaven on the day that Jesus spoke to him. Jesus had foretold that, after his being killed, he would not be raised up until the third day. (Luke 9:22) During that three-day period he was not in heaven, because following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3, 6-11.

John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

[outhouse]

Quran just mentions

Not a word of truth on this topic. nor have you brought anything credible to back your unsubstantiated view

 

[Shuttlecraft]

..The Bible does not agree with the view that Jesus and the evildoer went to heaven on the day that Jesus spoke to him..

You mean you JW's don't agree..
It's plain enough, after his execution Jesus dropped off the evildoer in heaven, then came and went himself a number of times to give messages to his followers over a period of 40 days, sometimes in spiritual form and sometimes in solid flesh and blood form.

"..he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

 

[Shad]

What you said is gold. We must see the meaning of comforter in the scripture. Christians claim to be talking about the holy spirit or holy ghost. Let us review.


John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 14:17 say exactly what the comforter is, it is the Holy Spirit.

If you learn nonsense from fools and repeat nonsense it just makes you look like a fool. One verse refutes your entire argument and the drivel in your link. People call God father, he, him, lord, etc, all the time. Even Allah is referred to as he, It is how older languages work with masculine and femine words. Hebrew, Greece and Arabic use gender association for words. Learn linguistics of older languages.

 

[Sabour]

John 14:17 say exactly what the comforter is, it is the Holy Spirit.

If you learn nonsense from fools and repeat nonsense it just makes you look like a fool. One verse refutes your entire argument and the drivel in your link.

If it is the holy spirit, than the bible contradicts it self because logically it can't be the holy spirit. That is of course if you read the argument.

If you read by previous comments as well you would understand that I don't see that the whole bible is true. Things were changed and words were altered overtime.