Jesus did not die on the Cross

[outhouse]

Redemptionsong,


Sorry for the late reply, I have been busy with my other thread.

I think I have made enough points and I don't want to be repeating my self.

For the last time I tell you that everything I have said I supported it from the bible and it is not from the OT alone.

With the open minded you have showed, I invite you to watch some debates between Islam and Christianity. I ask you to watch debates for Ahmad Dedat and in particular I recommend watching that debate with Swaggart.

I hope you do.

What you fail to understand is. despite your ill founded belief, Jesus has historicity as being killed on a cross or T or pole .

Your book has bad credibility which is worse then no credibility when it comes to history because there are lies about what is real and what is not real.

If you want to carry your belief, even though it is unsubstantiated and refuses history, that is fine. But if you post that in a reply you will get called on your errors. Because as it stands now Jesus died on across or pole or T and that is the way it is.

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
I have already watched some of these debates. I am happy to listen to more, but there are inherent difficulties with debate of this sort. It often plays into the hands of rhetoric and not truth. I prefer the written word, which can be studied in detail and without the limitations of time.

You say in your post that you have repeated the same points - but which of these points has gone unanswered?

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

Arguments from Christians mythology/Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

One is welcome to comment on any of the above ten points.
Regards

 

[outhouse]

Jesus did not die on the Cross

Arguments from Christians mythology/Scripture: [Summary]

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
a. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515

Jesus did not want to die; and why should Jesus die on the Cross and for what?

One is welcome to comment on any of the above ten points.
Regards

Your reply is nothing but absurd, and shows a complete lack of historical knowledge.

Its beyond epic fail at this point as your reply is simple ludicrous

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
Here's a summary of your arguments, alongside a rebuttal of each argument.

I will continue to post it every time you post your list of arguments. EACH AND EVERY ONE HAS BEEN ADEQUATELY ANSWERED.

1. Jesus did not fulfill Sign of Jonah, if we take the Christian stance. Please read the argument from post # 109.
Jonah was in hell, SO HE WAS DEAD. (Jonah 2:2)

2. Jesus' prayers in the Garden were not heard. Please read the argument from post # 153.
His prayers were heard, but there was no other way to overcome SIN and DEATH, so Jesus accepts his role as Lamb of God. 'Thy will be done'. His Father in heaven answered his prayer by raising him from the dead!!

3. Jesus' words right on the Cross from post # 188.
When Jesus bore SIN in his flesh, he was the taking the punishment required by the law. He was made a curse despite being without sin himself. 'My God , My God, why hast thou forsaken me.' God and sin cannot coexist. There is no problem with Jesus' words.

4. Jesus was on the Cross for few hours only from post #211.
It was six hours, enough to bring about Jesus' death. The soldiers checked he was dead, and pierced him with a spear. The centurion present confirmed his death to Pilate.

5. God always hears Jesus’ prayers and Jesus’ prayers were heard from post #246.
The prayers of Jesus were heard, which is why God raised him from the dead!

6. Who wanted Jesus to be crucified? The Jews From post #246
Both Jews and Romans wanted him crucified. There certainly wasn't a plot to keep Jesus from being crucified for longer. It wasn't necessary, and the bodies had to be down before the Sabbath.

6. And the selfish Christians Clergy for condonation of their hefty sins. from post # 288.
We are all sinners! You need Jesus too.

7. Crucifixion was demanded by the Jews: From pot ##301 .
Already countered.

8. Why crucifixion? Jews wanted to prove Jesus an imposter and a fabricator. From post # 315
It fulfilled the law to have a man die on a tree, the punishment (curse) that results from the works of the law.
It also fulfilled the law to have a lamb die at Passover. His blood saves.

9.The confusion of NT-Bible/Christian mythology as to the time, date, year of Crucifixion of Jesus. Post #461
Not really a valid point. The scriptures themselves are very detailed about time, dates and places.The confusion with times and dates is ours.

10. Bones of Jesus were not broken while bones of other two men were broken. Post #515
Yes, true, and this has been explained as well. When Jesus was found to be dead already, they felt it was not worth breaking his legs. Breaking the legs was only done to end a life. Jesus was ALREADY DEAD. The spear was used to be absolutely certain he was dead.

So, paarsurrey, not one of these arguments holds any weight. The scriptures provide an entirely credible and believable account of what happened.

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
Maybe you could now answer my question.
Is it possible for a man to raise the dead?

 

[Redemptionsong]

One-answer,
I have just been looking at the on-line book that Deedat wrote about Jonah. HE MAKES THE SAME BASIC ERROR THAT PAARSURREY MAKES! You need to look more closely at the wording of the book of Jonah. Read the original language and then study the meaning of the word SHEOL. What does it refer to?

The very same word is found in Psalm 16:10.
'For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [SHEOL]; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

NOW I WONDER WHO THAT MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT?!

It's a very clear prophecy to Jesus being in the grave but not being allowed to see corruption!!

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey,
Maybe you could now answer my question.
Is it possible for a man to raise the dead?

Jesus did not raise any dead; he could not.
I have answered it, it is off-topic though.

Regards

 

[Nada]

Jesus did not die on a cross & Jesus did raise the dead.He did with the little girl and Lazarus.Paul even did it.

Acts 20:7-12. 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal,Paul began discoursing to them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 So there were quite a few lamps in the upper chamber where we were gathered together. 9 Seated at the window, a certain young man named Eu′ty·chus fell into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking on, and, collapsing in sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went downstairs, threw himself upon him and embraced him and said: “STOP raising a clamor, for his soul is in him.” 11 He now went upstairs and began the meal and took food, and after conversing for quite a while, until daybreak, he at length departed. 12 So they took the boy away alive and were comforted beyond measure.

So did Peter. He was the first apostle to perform a resurrection.

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus did not die on a cross & Jesus did raise the dead.He did with the little girl and Lazarus.Paul even did it.

Acts 20:7-12. 7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal,Paul began discoursing to them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 So there were quite a few lamps in the upper chamber where we were gathered together. 9 Seated at the window, a certain young man named Eu′ty·chus fell into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking on, and, collapsing in sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went downstairs, threw himself upon him and embraced him and said: “STOP raising a clamor, for his soul is in him.” 11 He now went upstairs and began the meal and took food, and after conversing for quite a while, until daybreak, he at length departed. 12 So they took the boy away alive and were comforted beyond measure.

So did Peter. He was the first apostle to perform a resurrection.

Acts 9:40 Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Have you ever looked up the definition of "rhetoric" as Aristotle taught?

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey, I don't think the question is entirely off topic. You are attempting to prove that the text of the Qur'an is more believable than the text of the Bible.

The Bible states that Jesus raised the dead. YOU DENY THIS. Yet, strangely enough the Qur'an also states that Jesus raised the dead! Try reading Sura 5:109 ff.

Do you not believe the word of Muhammad either?

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to posts #4, 45, and 54,423,448,496,512.

We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran to its end: [9]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran

[3:81] Nor is it possible for him that he should bid you take the angels and the Prophets for Lords. Would he enjoin you to disbelieve after you have submitted to God?
[3:82] And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets, saying: ‘Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.’ AndHe said: ‘Do you agree, and do you accept the responsibility which I lay upon you in thismatter?’ They said, ‘We agree;’ He said, ‘Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses.’
[3:83] Now whoso turns away after this, then, surely, those are the transgressors.
[3:84] Do they seek a religion other than Allah’s, while to Him submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned?
[3:85] Say, ‘We believe in Allah and in that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.’
[3:86] And whoso seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.
[3:87] How shall Allah guide a people who have disbelieved after believing and who had borne witness that the Messenger was true and to whom clear proofs had come? And Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
[3:88] Of such the reward is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angels and of men, all together.
[3:89] They shall abide thereunder. Their punishment shall not be lightened nor shall they be reprieved;
[3:90] Except those who repent thereafter and amend. And surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Any other poster here, believing in a religion or no-religion is welcome to prove threadbare:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s have been given from Christian Gospels of NT-Bible or Quran, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”?
Please

Regards

 

[Nada]

Over and out..............

 

[Redemptionsong]

paarsurrey,
You appear to be intentionally avoiding my questions.

So, let's have a look at the passage from the Qur'an that you keep presenting.

My immediate impression is that it doesn't read well in English. For example, 3:18 says, 'And remember the time when Allah took a covenant from the people through the Prophets..'. When did God ever TAKE a covenant? A covenant is MADE BETWEEN TWO PARTIES. In the Bible we hear of 'The covenant', and 'MY covenant', and the 'ESTABLISHING' of a covenant - BUT NEVER the TAKING of a covenant. Did Allah TAKE an AGREEMENT from the people through the prophets? [Who translated this?]

It also says, 'And remember the time..'. Well, which time are we meant to remember? Is it the time when God made a covenant with Noah (Genesis 9:11), or the covenant with Abraham (Genesis17:7) or maybe the covenant with Moses (Exodus 34:27)? [The Bible, unlike the Qur'an, is very specific, and beautifully accurate.]

In the same verse, it goes on to say, 'Whatever I give you of the Book and Wisdom and then there comes to you a Messenger, fulfilling that which is with you, you shall believe in him and help him.'

Is this Muhammad claiming to speak the words of Allah, then also witnessing to HIMSELF as the coming Messenger!

Jesus never made claims that were not already made by OTHERS! He allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal the TRUTH. Yet Muhammad claims to speak for God, and to witness to his own fulfilment of the Book and Wisdom (again, without being specific as to which BOOK or which WISDOM!!) Where are the prophecies to the coming of Muhammad as the final and greatest prophet? NOWHERE! Certainly not in Deuteronomy 18:18!

This is based on just ONE verse of the Qur'an.

 

[Redemptionsong]

3:84, 'Do they seek a religion other than Allah's...?' now that's an interesting question. Moses is accepted as a prophet of God in the Qur'an.
The Bible tells us all about Moses. To Moses is delivered the LAW - all five books of the TORAH, including all 613 MITZVOT. This is what I call a religion, the covenant between God and Israel. So what other religion might Muhammad be talking about? Might it be the religion of Christianity?

But Jesus DIDN'T ESTABLISH A NEW RELIGION. He established a new covenant, which was the covenant of LOVE, not LAW. NOwhere does Jesus say that he wants to stop being a Jew and start a new religion!! Christians only start to exist as the body of Christ (Church) after the day of Pentecost. They become Christians, or little Christs, because they have the Spirit of Christ IN THEM. That spirit is the HOLY SPIRIT, which is also the Spirit of God's LOVE.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My final submission on your Qur'anic passage. 3:85.
What exactly was revealed 'to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and the Tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord'? This is characteristically VAGUE.

It also raises a serious problem. For nowhere in the Bible is Ishmael shown to have been a part of God's covenant, made with Abraham and his descendents. Nor do they settle in the same geographical area.

The Bible says, 'Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren. (Genesis 25:12-18)

Now that is truly the word of God. It is very specific, allowing for historical verification and geographical location.

It also fits with later stories in the Bible. For when Joseph was sold by his brothers to passing traders on their way to Egypt, we are told that the traders were ISHMAELITES!

I know that some of these towns still exist on old maps of Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And I've just spent some time looking up about Tayma in Saudi Arabia. This is the same as TEMA in the book of Genesis, one of the twelve towns named after the sons of Ishmael.

In Tayma they have found archaeological artifacts dating back to the 8th century BCE, and it also has an ancient well. I was able to locate pictures of this well on Google Earth.

Now, here's the beauty. In Isaiah [written between 7th and 8th centuries BCE] there is this beautiful passage:
'The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled.
For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.' (Isaiah 17:11-21)

Before and after this verse are mentioned other tribes of Arabia - Dedanim and the children of Kedar. Where have we heard those names before?

Once again, the absolute truth and beauty of the Bible is brought to light.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I may now be talking to myself and myself alone, but this reminds me that when deliberate and careful research is done, based on a firm belief in the inerrancy of scripture, all kinds of interesting facts are uncovered.

One of these was the discovery that Mount Sinai, or Horeb, was a mountain in Arabia. And, if you believe the Bible, it tells you as much.

 

[Sabour]

Redemption song.

Sorry to put things that way. You said the the beauty of bible brought to light.

Well no hard feelings, but I hope you watch this video. These points mentioned, can't be from a holy book.

Regards



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9uUNdnWXq0

 

[outhouse]

paarsurrey,
You appear to be intentionally avoiding my questions.

.

Welcome to the culture of islam