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Jesus did not die on the Cross

Shad

Veteran Member
OK; but not written by Jesus or by any person explicitly authorized by Jesus to write on his behalf.

Regards

Most of history would be dismissed if this was a standard. One could argue with great success that Jesus' dialogues with the Apostles ("messenger, envoy") was authorization to spread the message. It's what the word means in Greek. This is in fact part of what being an Apostle is. Just as Sahabah are used as authority figures for the Quran and Hadiths.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It was just an assumption; none of the scribes of Gospels was an eye-witness of the event of crucifixion; they all fled away as per Matthew.

Had they sided with Jesus; crucifixion might have not happened. They deserted Jesus.

Why trust them?

Regards

The bible doesn't say anything about "assumption." All gospels are in agreement that it happened. If you're going with "assumption," you could just as easily make the assumption that the whole Jesus thing never happened.

If the disciples had sided with Jesus, they'd have all ended up dead; they had no power whatsoever.

We trust them, because ya gotta start somewhere.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Did Jesus say that there would be an NT Bible? If there had been any need he would have written it himself.

Regards
He would? How do you know? Jesus was probably not able to write. In that culture, writing was not usual -- it was an oral transmission culture. In fact, there wasn't a need for many years -- about 450, to be more or less exact.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran from the start [Please refer to posts from Shad #297, outhouse#300, Shad#328 etc @ thread “Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah”] and I give below, Second set of ten verses from Quran Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran:


[3:11] Those who disbelieve — their possessions and their children shall not avail them at all against Allah; and it is they that are the fuel of the Fire.
[3:12] Their case is like the case of the people of Pharaoh and those before them; they rejected Our Signs; so Allah punished them for their sins, and Allah is severe in punishing.
[3:13] Say to those who disbelieve, ‘You shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell; and an evil place of rest it is.’
[3:14] Certainly there was for you a Sign in the two armies that encountered each other, one army fighting in the cause of Allah and the other disbelieving, whom they saw to be twice as many as themselves, actually with their eyes. Thus Allah strengthens with His aid whomsoever He pleases. In that surely is a lesson for those who have eyes.
[3:15] Beautified for men is the love of desired things — women and children, and stored-up heaps of gold and silver, and pastured horses and cattle and crops. That is the provision of the present life; but it is Allah with Whom is an excellent home.
[3:16] Say, ‘Shall I inform you of something better than that?’ For those who fear God, there are Gardens with their Lord, beneath which rivers flow; therein shall they abide; and pure spouses and Allah’s pleasure. And Allah is Mindful of His servants,
[3:17] Those who say, ‘Our Lord, we do believe; forgive us, therefore, our sins and save us from the punishment of the Fire;’
[3:18] The steadfast, and the truthful, and the humble, and those who spend in the way of God, and those who seek forgiveness in the latter part of the night.
[3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.
[3:20] Surely, the true religion with Allah is Islam (complete submission). And those who were given the Book did not disagree but after knowledge had come to them, out of mutual envy. And whoso denies the Signs of Allah, then surely, Allah is quick at reckoning.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare as our above friends here had suggested:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s has been given from Christian Gospels, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”? And that is the title of this thread.


Regards
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Why are you referring to a Surah which is not addressed by any referenced posts? Wouldn't it be better if you to address the posts in questions rather than ask us to address an unrelated Surah you post?

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows.

Quran 3:49

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

Gospel of Pseudo-Mathew

CHAP. 20.-- And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.

Quran 19:22-26

So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten." But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates. So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "

I would like you to address the later comparison of The Gospel of Pseudo-Mathew ch 20 and Quran 19-22-26.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
One may believe in anything blindly;that is one's birth-right; please enjoy it.

Regards

I believe that is true but I also believe that a false belief can bring a person a great deal of harm so I am grateful that I haven't believed in the Bible blindly and also grateful that what I believed innocently as a child has proven to be rational as an adult.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus death never happened; he was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position.

Regards

I believe the record is that the soldiers discovered that He had already died so they did not have to break his legs while He was on the cross.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It was just an assumption; none of the scribes of Gospels was an eye-witness of the event of crucifixion; they all fled away as per Matthew.

Had they sided with Jesus; crucifixion might have not happened. They deserted Jesus.

Why trust them?

Regards

I believe neither the Bible nor the Qu'ran say that.

I believe the apostle John was there as the Bible says.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I can understand Atheists viewpoint. The Jesus of Bible a god or son of god was a fictional character of Paul and the Church invented for Bible; sure such mythical character never existed.

Jesus son of Mary did exist.

Regards

I believe that is pure fantasy on your part.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What DO you think happened to Jesus?

Jesus had clearly told that he was only sent to the lost sheep/tribes of the Israel:

Matthew 15:24
[24] I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Gospel According to Saint Matthew Chapter 15

Jesus’ ministry was for the lost sheep of Israel; there were only two of them in Judea and ten lived in India and the neighboring area.

After the event of crucifixion in which he survived he went to deliver his message to the rest ten tribes of the Israel. Jesus went to India to meet them and they accepted his message.

For details please read the following:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Jesus-in-India.pdf

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross


We will look into Surah/Chapter No.3 of Quran from the start [Please refer to posts from Shad #297, outhouse#300, Shad#328 etc @ thread “Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah”] and I give below, Third set of ten verses from Quran Chapter 3: Aal-e-`Imran:

[3:21] But if they dispute with thee, say, ‘I have submitted myself to Allah, and also those who follow me.’ And say to those who have been given the Book and to the unlearned, ‘Have you submitted?’ If they submit, then they will surely be guided; but if they turn back, then thy duty is only to convey the message. And Allah is Watchful of His servants.
[3:22] Surely, those who deny the Signs of Allah and seek to kill the Prophets unjustly, and seek to kill such men as enjoin equity — announce to them a painful punishment.
[3:23] Those are they whose deeds shall come to naught in this world and in the next, and they shall have no helpers.
[3:24] Dost thou not know of those who have been given their portion of the Book? They are called to the Book of Allah that it may judge between them, but a party of them turn away in aversion.
[3:25] That is because they say, ‘The Fire shall not touch us, except for a limited number of days.’ And what they used to forge has deceived them regarding their religion.
[3:26] How will they fare when We will gather them together on the Day about which there is no doubt; and when every soul shall be paid in full what it has earned, and they shall not be wronged?
[3:27] Say, ‘O Allah, Lord of sovereignty, Thou givest sovereignty to whomsoever Thou pleasest; and Thou takest away sovereignty from whomsoever Thou pleasest. Thou exaltest whomsoever Thou pleasest and Thou abasest whomsoever Thou pleasest. In Thy hand is all good. Thou surely hast power to do all things.
[3:28] ‘Thou makest the night pass into the day and makest the day pass into the night. And Thou bringest forth the living from the dead and bringest forth the dead from the living. And Thou givest to whomsoever Thou pleasest without measure.’
[3:29] Let not the believers take disbelievers for friends in preference to believers — and whoever does that has no connection with Allah — except that you cautiously guard against them. And Allah cautions you against His punishment; and to Allah is the returning.
[3:30] Say, ‘Whether you conceal what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it; and He knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And Allah has power to do all things.’
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online


Shad, Outhouse or any other poster here to please prove threadbare as our above friends here had suggested:

1. Which verses of this chapter have been copied/plagiarized from Christian Gospels?
2. What argument/s has been given from Christian Gospels, if any, to prove that “Jesus did not die on the Cross”? And that is the title of this thread.


Regards
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Your linked Jesus in India is a horrible book which makes up history in order to validate the presupposition view of the author. It omits Buddhist views which contradict the presuppositional argument which clearly shows the book is about confirmation bias not honest scholarship.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Your linked Jesus in India is a horrible book which makes up history in order to validate the presupposition view of the author. It omits Buddhist views which contradict the presuppositional argument which clearly shows the book is about confirmation bias not honest scholarship.

What is horrible about it? Please

Regards
 

gnostic

The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Act is written by Paul; he usurped religion of Jesus and doctored anonymous writings in absence of Jesus while he was had gone to India. Paul invented new creeds unknown to Jesus.

Act is not a reliable source.

So Paul wrote the Acts?

That's a very neat trick. :eek:

Before making claims of who wrote what, you should do a little research.

According to most scholars today, the Acts was composed some 14 years or more AFTER PAUL'S DEATH, somewhere in 80 and 90 CE.

Paul was known to have died in 66 CE.

It would stand to reason that someone else wrote the Acts. We don't know who ACTUALLY wrote the Acts, but the 2nd century traditions had attribute the authorship to Luke, but no one really know for certain.

It would be amazing trick to write something when he supposed to be dead.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
What is horrible about it? Please

Regards

Word association for one. Jesus being called the Blessed, of God, is not the same as Buddha is Blessed. Buddha is not blessed by a Creator God so this status of "blessed" is not the same. The book is based on parallelomania in which the author perceives apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies without historical basis.

You also show you hold a double standard and confirmation bias. Due to the similarities of both figures you accept the conclusion that Buddha is Jesus. However when such similarities are pointed out in Christian/Hebrew text and the Quran you dismiss these similarities.
 
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Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Jesus did not die on the Cross. This is a fact which did happen in real life and Quran does not claim that it is first to claim it.

Does it?

Your thoughts please; anybody believing in a religion or no religion.

Regards

There are two 'versions' going on here, one for crucifixion, the other denying it. The big difference here is that Jesus is far more integral to the beliefs of Christians, therefore in some sense we are obliged to "value" the traditional narrative of Christians view of Jesus as opposed to another group.


Now, there is a caveat, namely that not all Christians always believed in the crucifixion, though the majority do seem to have.
 
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