Jesus drank alcohol

[angellous_evangellous]

Harvester,

It is therefore not a sin to ever be drunk. It is a regulated pleasure. Evidently, there is a time to celebrate. It is habitual drunkenness that is sinful and excludes people from the kingdom of heaven. Remember that Jesus and his disciples were called drunkards, which means that they were drunk from time to time, and this fact completely destoys both the arugment that the wine was weak and that there was little alternative to safe eating. Some religious fanatics in Jesus's day prohibited drinking and made fun of Jesus and his disiples who did. Jesus was the Messiah, and that was cause for celebration, which includes heavy drinking.

See Luke 7.34
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." '

Compare to Luke 5.33
They said to him, "John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking." The reason is in the rhetorical question "Can you make wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them?" Jesus makes it absolutely clear that they are referring to alcoholic wine with the previous word "drinking" by saying "38But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine desires new, for he says, 'The old is good.'" The old is good because age allows the yeast to ferment, raise the alcohol content, and further develop the taste of the wine!

Compare to Mark 2.16
Mark 2:16
When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

 

[Aqualung]

who called him a drunkard, though? The people who were set to discredit him in any way they could.

 

[michel]

No, it's not absurd that you should want that. It's absurd that you should try to make the people in a forum specifically for debating adhere to that . But to each his own...

You are right of course. Thank you for making me see what I was doing, now I am aware of it, I can try to curb this instinctive habit.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

who called him a drunkard, though? The people who were set to discredit him in any way they could.

Yes, I pointed out that this was coming from religious fanatics. But it is clear that Jesus drank - this accusation does not have to be without some merit when it describes a man who gave wine to people who were drunk at a wedding and commonly shared meals with sinners who were eating and drinking wine...

 

[Aqualung]

It is clear that he drank, yes. But it is not clear what he drunk or to what degree. The only "proof" you cited that Jesus drank an alcoholic beverage in quantities that made him drunk was the accusation of the religious fanatics.

By the way, your signiature is really cool!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is clear that he drank, yes. But it is not clear what he drunk or to what degree. The only "proof" you cited that Jesus drank an alcoholic beverage in quantities that made him drunk was the accusation of the religious fanatics.

By the way, your signiature is really cool!

I agree. The attempt is to show our friend why Jesus would give wine to people who were drunk and not be leading them into sin. Jesus drank and was accused of being a drunkard, which may only mean that he got drunk once, which I think is tenable because he gave wine to drunk people.

 

[Aqualung]

He drank, but what? He was accused of being a drunkard, but by who? Using these accusations as proof that Jesus got drunk is rather rediculous.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

He drank, but what? He was accused of being a drunkard, but by who? Using these accusations as proof that Jesus got drunk is rather rediculous.

Ok.

1) Jesus and his disciples drank alchohol, which is abundantly clear in the texts that I cited above

2) Jesus gave alcohol to drunk people, which the "master of the feast" applauded - and the wine was good

3) When asked why his disciples drank alchohol, Jesus's teaching further clarifies that old wine is better

4) We know certainly that there were religious sects within Judaism that drank only water, so the argument that low alchohol content wine was the only healthy choice is void

5) We know that some people in these sects accused Jesus of being a drunkard

6) You can get drunk on the wine of the first century that Jesus gave because the master of the feast certified it AND there are multiple warnings about habitual drunkennes from first century wine

Hense, there is no biblical argument for complete abstinance from alchohol. And it is not rediculous for Jesus to do something that he encouraged others to do.

 

[may]

It's not that he was wrong. It's that we have changed so much that his old rules just don't make any sense anymore.

they make perfect sense to me

 

[Aqualung]

Okay.
1) Sure, they drank alcohol. But what was the alcohol content of that wine they drank, and what was their tolerance to alcohol?
2) How drunk were they? How do you know they were drunk?
3) Old wine is better. Okay. I'll go with you on that one.
4) It's not viod. People might have drank water, but they probably had to boil it, and they were probably less healthy anyway.
5) Once again, the only people who accused Jesus of being a drunkard were those who wanted to discredit him. Baseless accusation made to colour him in a bad light.
6) Of course you can get drunk. But how easy was it? How much did you have to drink?

 

[Aqualung]

they make perfect sense to me

No, it's not that they don't make sense as in you can't understand them, it's that there's no reason. Like the laws of making sure you went out of the camp to loosen your bowels, and then make sure you buried it with a stick. To follow that law just makes no sense anymore, now that we have toilets and stuff.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Aqualung,

Here's the deal. Humans have been making wine and getting drunk for a heck of a long time. It could have been God herself who taught Adam how to make wine. The first thing that Noah did when he got off the Ark, being the sole righteous man that he was, was plant a vineyard and get drunk. In Jesus's day, the best wine came from a few families in Italy, and we know that it was transported all over the Mediterranean world, and if this guy at the wedding feast "got out" at all, he is comparing it to some good stuff. Wine is made by fermenting yeast in grape juice. With all of our 21st century technology, we cannot get wine to much more than 13% alchohol (the lowest being about 8%), and there is absolutely no reason to think that yeast of the first century could produce much less. Depending on your tolerance and size, it should take about as much wine today as in the first century to get drunk.

As the Romans pushed west, they found that the Germanic peoples of the mountains could not grow grapes, but got drunk off of a fermented barley drink that came to be known as beer. The fermenting process for beer hasn't changed much, either. Alchohol content is about 3% to 8%. Can you imagine how pisst the Roman soldiers were when they tried to get drunk off of beer - they were rationed the higher alchohol content Roman wine instead of making due with the barbarian's beer (see Peter Lampe's "Christianity in Rome in the First Two Centuries").

EDIT: Besides, it does not matter how much they had to drink to get drunk, as far as it applies to Jesus giving more alchohol to drunk people.

 

[Aqualung]

And what happened after Noah got drunk? He passed out naked in his tent and caused one of his sons to see him naked, and then cursed him. Drukenness is bad.

 

[Merlin]

who called him a drunkard, though? The people who were set to discredit him in any way they could.

I agree. This thread originally asked a very simple question. "Why do some Christian sects ban the drinking of a small sip of wine even in celebration of the Last Supper".

It seems to have mutated into deciding whether Jesus was a drunkard or not. There is little doubt that had he been, it would have been well reported bearing in mind he was considered by most people to be a rabbi.

So, although I think that like everybody else in those days he would drink a glass of wine with his meals, I cannot see how anybody reaches the conclusion that he was ever drunk. Even at the wedding, when he manufactured more wine, everybody was speaking quite cogently.

So maybe now you will all allow a tiny sip of wine in memory of the blood that Jesus shed for us all, as he commanded.

 

[may]

No, it's not that they don't make sense as in you can't understand them, it's that there's no reason. Like the laws of making sure you went out of the camp to loosen your bowels, and then make sure you buried it with a stick. To follow that law just makes no sense anymore, now that we have toilets and stuff.

drinking wine is still enjoyable now, in moderation. but sitting on a nice comfy seat in the bathroom is now better than going down the garden with a stick..LOL So drinking wine was good then, and it is still good now,why change a good thing.

 

[dan]

My problem is that saying, "It's ok in moderation" leads many (not all) to addiction and abuse. Saying don't drink it at all causes much less of that. For a religion to condone drinking at all opens the door for a lot of problems. Why bother for a pointless pursuit?

 

[michel]

My problem is that saying, "It's ok in moderation" leads many (not all) to addiction and abuse. Saying don't drink it at all causes much less of that. For a religion to condone drinking at all opens the door for a lot of problems. Why bother for a pointless pursuit?

Maybe you had better ban food, smoking, having fun, working..............all those have a detrimental effect when done in excess.......:biglaugh:

 

[dan]

But they don't naturally lead to excess. And they also have a purpose. Drinking has none.

 

[may]

But they don't naturally lead to excess. And they also have a purpose. Drinking has none.

No one that has drunk old wine wants new; for he says, ‘The old is nice...luke 5;39 i would disagree that it has no purpose the bible tells us its nice

And Jehovah of armies will certainly make for all the peoples, in this mountain, a banquet of well-oiled dishes, a banquet of [wine kept on] the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with marrow, of [wine kept on] the dregs, filtered isaiah 25;6

(Ecclesiastes 10:19) Bread is for the laughter of the workers, and wine itself makes life rejoice; but money is what meets a response in all things

"Come, feed yourselves with my bread and share in drinking the wine that I have mixed...proverbs 9;5 ...yes i would say it adds to the enjoyment of life

 

[Aqualung]

I agree. This thread originally asked a very simple question. "Why do some Christian sects ban the drinking of a small sip of wine even in celebration of the Last Supper".

It seems to have mutated into deciding whether Jesus was a drunkard or not. There is little doubt that had he been, it would have been well reported bearing in mind he was considered by most people to be a rabbi.

So, although I think that like everybody else in those days he would drink a glass of wine with his meals, I cannot see how anybody reaches the conclusion that he was ever drunk. Even at the wedding, when he manufactured more wine, everybody was speaking quite cogently.

So maybe now you will all allow a tiny sip of wine in memory of the blood that Jesus shed for us all, as he commanded.

I agree it has mutated into whether Jesus was a drunkard. Do you know why? Because a lot of christian sects don't drink alcohol because they don't think Jesus drank alcohol. So we are trying to establish whether or not Jesus drank alcohol.

And I don't understand why people think that just because he drank meant he was a drunkard, either.

drinking wine is still enjoyable now, in moderation. but sitting on a nice comfy seat in the bathroom is now better than going down the garden with a stick..LOL So drinking wine was good then, and it is still good now,why change a good thing.

What's so good about it? The taste? I personally would rather drink apple juice. I love apple juice. Plus, wine makes me pee like 2 seconds later. That's not enjoyable to have to keep rushing to the bathroom.

My problem is that saying, "It's ok in moderation" leads many (not all) to addiction and abuse. Saying don't drink it at all causes much less of that. For a religion to condone drinking at all opens the door for a lot of problems. Why bother for a pointless pursuit?

Yes, indeed. Most religious laws are like that. Like, "don't look at porn." There's certainly a percentage of the population that could look at porn and not get any lustful thoughts, and have it end with that. But the majority cannot. So it's a sin for everyone.

Maybe you had better ban food, smoking, having fun, working..............all those have a detrimental effect when done in excess.......

Why do you think our religion also tells us to eat meat in moderation, to abstain from tobacco? As for having fun and working, we are also advised to manage our time wisely.

No one that has drunk old wine wants new; for he says, ‘The old is nice...luke 5;39 i would disagree that it has no purpose the bible tells us its nice

So they prupose is to make us greedy and lustful after wine? In other words, the purpose of drinking wine is to develop an addciton?