Jesus Failed Right?

[Ajax]

It is interesting that the Book of Acts (written by someone of that time) basically said that there were a minimum of 10,000 in less than one year where the “popular” estimates it at 100 AD. I wonder why it is popular.

And isn’t it interesting that so few Christians turned the whole world into a different direction. I think if we look at the history of the Apostles, we can establish that the figures you are offering don’t match the history of their lives and the Books of Acts



I don’t think that looking at Jewish sources, who eventually were at odds with Christians (especially because of the horrible things that “Christians” did to Jewish people in the Dark Ages,) invalidates the other sources or the book of Acts for that matter.

The reality is that there is no way to determine the number of people who follow Christ.




I think you have simply convinced yourself of your position and then found people who supported your position and threw out what didn’t support your position.

Why do you think that Jesus effort was to “convert the Jews”? Yes, I know He came to preach to His own… but it was already written that He would be rejected and despised.

So I think if we look at what He came to “accomplish”, he was quite successful.

Even if 100,000 were converted, the number would still be below 2%.

Isaiah 53 talks about the nation ‘Israel’ - that is, the corporate people of Israel (i.e., what today we would call ‘the Jews’). This is absolutely clear if the reader would simply bother to read the whole narrative from about chapter 51 through 54 or so. The personification of Israel is portrayed as being afflicted and mistreated by the other nations, who eventually realize is it all their fault And then the personified Israel recuperates, lives a long life, and has a bunch of children. This is after chapter 53, which Christians apparently don’t read.

Jews do not accept Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus. On the contrary, Jews see absolutely nothing in the Tanakh as referring to Jesus. Jews consider Jesus completely irrelevant, completely meaningless and having nothing to do with Judaism.

And this is the evidence that Jesus failed to convert the people he supposedly came for them only.

Keep well!

 

[PearlSeeker]

That is why the world's expression is to eat, drink and be merry because tomorrow we die.

"So I commended the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be merry. For this joy will accompany him in his labor during the days of his life that God gives him under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 8:15)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Because we are physically human and Jesus was paying the death penalty for all humanity and offers new-eternal life.

What god would demand death penalty for sins and on top of that execution of someone innocent?

If my children do something bad or stupid I forgive them because they are children and they are my children. I don't need someone innocent killed to do that. And if children are personally responsible for an action they also have to take the consequences (but no death penalty of course)...

 

[Kenny]

Even if 100,000 were converted, the number would still be below 2%.

Isaiah 53 talks about the nation ‘Israel’ - that is, the corporate people of Israel (i.e., what today we would call ‘the Jews’). This is absolutely clear if the reader would simply bother to read the whole narrative from about chapter 51 through 54 or so. The personification of Israel is portrayed as being afflicted and mistreated by the other nations, who eventually realize is it all their fault And then the personified Israel recuperates, lives a long life, and has a bunch of children. This is after chapter 53, which Christians apparently don’t read.

Jews do not accept Isaiah 53 as referring to Jesus. On the contrary, Jews see absolutely nothing in the Tanakh as referring to Jesus. Jews consider Jesus completely irrelevant, completely meaningless and having nothing to do with Judaism.

And this is the evidence that Jesus failed to convert the people he supposedly came for them only.

Keep well!

yes… I do understand that many of today’s Jewish people don’t believe that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. Not that all don’t, of course.

Many testimonies like:

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But I still wonder about the number and whether there is any substance to it. For and example:

Acts 8:4 Therefore (D)those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then (E)Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For (F)unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

Multitudes doesn’t sound like “a few” to me. And why Paul was so persecuted if the impact was so small?

Just doesn’t jive for me.

 

[InChrist]

What god would demand death penalty for sins and on top of that execution of someone innocent?

If my children do something bad or stupid I forgive them because they are children and they are my children. I don't need someone innocent killed to do that. And if children are personally responsible for an action they also have to take the consequences (but no death penalty of course)...

I don’t think sin is some trivial matter. If you honestly look at the consequences and negative impact of sin upon our world, don’t you think it’s pretty horrendous? Wars, child abuse, human trafficking, murders, rapes, greed, on and on. I personally think the idea of putting sin to death, ending it permanently is a wise and good plan on God’s part. Out of love for His creation, Jesus CHOSE to take upon Himself the sins of the world. He CHOSE to pay the death penalty for sin once a for all, so the new heaven and earth will be sin free without all the terrible things we see in this fallen sinful world. Jesus CHOSE to offer new life to anyone who desires to be free from the ramifications of sin for eternity.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I personally think the idea of putting sin to death, ending it permanently is a wise and good plan on God’s part.

There is still a lot of sin in this world. Execution of Jesus didn't change anything. The symbol that Jesus became has been helpful though.

 

[Spice]

No, you are wrong. On his second statement Jesus told the disciples to go to the towns of Israel. Israel at that time was Palestine.

View attachment 90112

And that's where the Lost Tribes had been before they became "lost." Jesus was looking for the descendants that had intermarried, or blended in with others, losing most of their Jewishness. Yes, that meant preaching to the "Gentiles", but in search for the bloodlines of Israel, who mostly didn't even know they were of Israeli blood. The woman at the well, is a good example. John 4:4-30, with special attention to 20-24: "20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews say that the place where one must worship is in Jerusalem.”

21“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
The Samaritans were one such "mixed" peoples.

 

[Ajax]

You don't know what you're talking about. Israel is not Zion.

Zion (Hebrew: צִיּוֹן Ṣīyyōn, LXX Σιών, also variously transliterated Sion,[1] Tzion, Tsion, Tsiyyon)[2] is a placename in the Hebrew Bible, often used as a synonym for Jerusalem[3][4] as well as for the Land of Israel as a whole.
Zion - Wikipedia

In the Hebrew Bible, the Land of Israel and the city of Jerusalem are both referred to as Zion.
Zion appears in the Old Testament 152 times as a title of Jerusalem.

 

[Ajax]

yes… I do understand that many of today’s Jewish people don’t believe that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus. Not that all don’t, of course.

Many testimonies like:

YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

But I still wonder about the number and whether there is any substance to it. For and example:

Acts 8:4 Therefore (D)those who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. 5 Then (E)Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. 6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For (F)unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

Multitudes doesn’t sound like “a few” to me. And why Paul was so persecuted if the impact was so small?

Just doesn’t jive for me.

There is no point in arguing about this. This is minor considering the contradictions in the Bible, which of course you don't accept.

 

[Kenny]

There is no point in arguing about this.

Correct, as I mentioned, you have already made your decision and so you look for those voices that support your decision.

This is minor considering the contradictions in the Bible, which of course you don't accept.

OK… so now you want to change the goal post. Got it.

You might want to look up “contradictions explained”.

It will end up like above, two people looking at the same information and coming to two different conclusions.

 

[blü 2]

What, specifically, do you disagree with?

Ezekiel is talking about sin as an individual responsibility, emphatically not as a universal property of humans.

And as I've mentioned twice already, ch, 18 rules out the possibility of original sin. Ezekiel 18:20 spells it out clearly, but the whole chapter is relevant.

There is no original sin in the Garden story, there is no possibility of original sin after Ezekiel, there is no basis for it in the Tanakh, the idea appears to have arisen from what was essentially a scriptural game, and despite Paul's brief mentions, it wasn't a big deal till Augustine fell in love with it for reasons that I mentioned.

 

[InChrist]

There is still a lot of sin in this world. Execution of Jesus didn't change anything. The symbol that Jesus became has been helpful though.

True, there’s still a lot of sin in this world because it’s a fallen world which, according to the scriptures, will be destroyed and replaced with a new heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). Jesus is called people out for eternal life there.

 

[Ajax]

Correct, as I mentioned, you have already made your decision and so you look for those voices that support your decision.


OK… so now you want to change the goal post. Got it.

You might want to look up “contradictions explained”.

It will end up like above, two people looking at the same information and coming to two different conclusions.

No I don't want to change the goal posts, although I strongly believe there are hundreds of serious contradictions. We simply beg to differ.
I'm sure that "contradictions explained" come from Christian apologetic sites.

 

[Kenny]

No I don't want to change the goal posts, although I strongly believe there are hundreds of serious contradictions. We simply beg to differ.
I'm sure that "contradictions explained" come from Christian apologetic sites.

Well, they certainly didn’t come from “I don’t believe” sites! You only get contradictions there with no explanations… all of a sudden they are literalists.

And it was a change of goal posts

 

[Ajax]

Well, they certainly didn’t come from “I don’t believe” sites! You only get contradictions there with no explanations… all of a sudden they are literalists.

I don't use contradictions from "I don't believe" sites. They are pretty petty there.

And it was a change of goal posts

If you think so...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"So I commended the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be merry. For this joy will accompany him in his labor during the days of his life that God gives him under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 8:15)

Yes, we can commend the enjoyment of life because of HOPE.
Hope of living forever as Jesus promised.
Some resurrected to Heaven to govern over Earth with Jesus - Rev. 20:6; 5:9-10;2:10
The majority of people can be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth - Matt. 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26
Those found faithful after the end of Jesus' coming thousand-year reign over Earth can gain the real life meaning everlasting life on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was. - Isaiah 35th chapter.
H old
O n
P ain
E nds

 

[URAVIP2ME]

True, there’s still a lot of sin in this world because it’s a fallen world which, according to the scriptures, will be destroyed and replaced with a new heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:10-13). Jesus is called people out for eternal life there.

Yes, a new governmental heavens (Daniel 7:13-14; Psalm 72:8,12-14) over the humble meek who will inherit the earth.
Immortal life for those resurrected to Heaven (Rev. 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10) to govern over Earth with Jesus for a thousand years for the faithful meek who can gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
A beautiful paradisical Earth as Isaiah paints a beautiful word picture for us in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What god would demand death penalty for sins and on top of that execution of someone innocent?
If my children do something bad or stupid I forgive them because they are children and they are my children. I don't need someone innocent killed to do that. And if children are personally responsible for an action they also have to take the consequences (but no death penalty of course)...

Like us, our children are imperfect due to inherited imperfection from fallen-father Adam.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die. Because we can't stop sinning we die.
We can't resurrect oneself nor resurrect another. We need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Rev. 1:18
The reason Jesus can and will resurrect the dead is because Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us.
Adam under excellent conditions proved un-faithful.
Jesus under adverse conditions proved faithful, faithful to the point of torture and execution.
Both Adam and Jesus started out sinless:
* Adam chose sin which leads to death - Gen. 2:17
* Jesus chose Not to sin leading to life, life Not only for himself but for us because through No fault of our own we sin.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Even if 100,000 were converted, the number would still be below 2%............................................
And this is the evidence that Jesus failed to convert the people he supposedly came for them only.....

One person calculated out of all the people Jesus encountered that only 1% became a follower.
Thus, we are Not talking about quantity but quality. ( The few on the narrow path - Matt. 7:13-14 )
Not a failure to convert, but to give the Jews the first key or privileged opportunity to become his followers.
Second, the opportunity was unlocked for the Samaritans to follow Jesus.
Third, starting with gentile Cornelius, the way was opened up for the people of the nations to follow Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is still a lot of sin in this world. Execution of Jesus didn't change anything. The symbol that Jesus became has been helpful though.

The point is: Messiah ('seed' of Gen. 3:15) could appear at any time in history.
Seems that the conditions were right, or favorable, for Jesus to appear in the first century ( Luke 3:15 )
Without a sinless Jesus' faithful death there would be No hope at any time for conditions to change.
Jesus informed us that first he as the nobleman would travel on a long journey before returning - Luke 19:11-15
Thus, the kingdom ( thy kingdom come........ ) would Not appear before Gen. 1:28 would be completed.
Earth would first have to be populated (filled) Not over populated/over fulled before the start of Jesus' coming thousand-year reign over Earth would begin.