Jesus Failed Right?

[soulsurvivor]

Whoa -- it's John of Patmos' vision as dictated to him by Jesus while imprisoned. So the same should apply as is all other "books," as all are considered by conversative/Orthodox thought that they are man's written words as dictated by God.

Conservatives can believe what they want, but I don't think any of the books were dictated by any God. The details which are common among the four Gospels are the most reliable, especially the ones with witnesses. Predictions or dreams about the future are the most unreliable.

 

[metis]

The term Jews is a derivative term for the inhabitants of The Kingdom of Judah roughly 900's BC forward. Judah was a successor of The United Kingdom of Israel. Canaanites refer to the populations of the regions that predate Abrams arrival and subsequent agreement with God or covenant.

That's not what the evidence is now showing, but that's another discussion for another day.

BTW, why didn't you answer my question?

 

[Spice]

Conservatives can believe what they want, but I don't think any of the books were dictated by any God. The details which are common among the four Gospels are the most reliable, especially the ones with witnesses. Predictions or dreams about the future are the most unreliable.

I agree. All the wisdoms of the ancients and the mulling of modern learned men require careful and mindful discernment.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The penalty if sin is death…

Doesn't everyone still pay this price for sin? Why was additionally that killing needed?

The greatest Christian mental gymnastics (to transform the failure of their Messiah candidate into victory) is the teaching that one innocent man had to be killed so that God can forgive us our sins.

I was lazy today. That's a sin. But God forgives me because one innocent man was tortured and put to death 2000 years ago. Now, this is the hight of mercy and justice!

 

[Colt]

That's not what the evidence is now showing, but that's another discussion for another day.

BTW, why didn't you answer my question?

Evidence??? Did you not know that the region that Abraham was called to was Canaan? Thats where the Canaanites lived.

31 Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there.

Thats not even debatable.

I don't know what you mean by BAR? Is that a book or an author?

 

[InChrist]

Doesn't everyone still pay this price for sin? Why was additionally that killing needed?

The greatest Christian mental gymnastics (to transform the failure of their Messiah candidate into victory) is the teaching that one innocent man had to be killed so that God can forgive us our sins.

I was lazy today. That's a sin. But God forgives me because one innocent man was tortured and put to death 2000 years ago. Now, this is the hight of mercy and justice!

Physical death in this temporal world is just a physical picture or reminder of a far worse spiritual death. Death in the scriptures refers to eternal separation from God, the Source of life, love, beauty, joy, and all goodness.

According to the scriptures, Jesus paid for the sins of the world, but that payment is not applied your sins until you trust Jesus as your Savior and accept His forgiveness and payment personally.

 

[Kenny]

Sergio DellaPergola, one of the leading scholars of Jewish demography, estimates the Jewish population in the first century BCE at 4.5 million and in the first century CE at a number between 4 and 5 million. Other scholars talk for about 7 million.
So you don't call successful a conversion of 5,000 or even 10-20,000...

How do you know how many have converted?

By the statements of that time:

Acts 17:6
But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too.

Doesn’t sound like a few to me.

It is evident therefore that Jesus didn't know that the Jewish people will not accept him.. which is strange for a God. And at least his Father should have told him that he wouldn't have any luck with them and not to mention (twice) that he came for the people of Israel only.

It is only evident to you because it is your position that he failed. I have given evidence that he didn’t. Now, if you are dogmatic in your position then we can agree to disagree. But you certainly haven’t given any evidence of your position.

 

[Ebionite]

There is no way anyone can have a logical discussion with fundamentalists.

It's about being able to support your position with facts and reason, not some weak inuendo.

 

[blü 2]

Your reference was about the other son of man.

Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith YHWH of armies: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zechariah 13:7


No, the assumption that he is referring to himself leads to the conclusion that his father was unjust. That's what condemning the guiltless was about.

But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7


No, the death cult doesn't get a break.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 28:18


It's the immediate context of a verse that Jesus refers to in relation to the crucifixion. Who else would it be about?


You've been told.

Your error, in my view, is a common Christian one, to think that the Tanakh refers at any point to Jesus.

Jesus is not recognizable as a Jewish messiah,since he was neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish people nor anointed by the priesthood, which as you know is what 'messiah' means. It's plain that the authors of the gospels thought it strengthened their narratives to model their stories on quotes from here and there in the Tanakh, as prophecies. In the real world there are not, and never have been authentic prophecies, which as I understand it were used as part of Jewish politics rather than as guides to the future.

For example, the author of Mark has Jesus "predict" the destruction of Jerusalem (Mark 13:2). What that tells us is that Mark was written after 70 CE. (Indeed, he models his trial scene of Jesus on Josephus' account of the trial of Jesus son of Ananias aka Jesus of Jerusalem in Wars VI.5.3, which wasn't available till 75 CE.)

 

[Ebionite]

Your error, in my view, is a common Christian one, to think that the Tanakh refers at any point to Jesus.

Your error is assuming that the Tanak refers to him as a messiah. He is referred to as the righteous servant.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

Psalm 35 is one of the fulfilment verses of John 15.

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
Psalms 35:19

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11

One notable false witnesses was Paul:
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:15-18

What was actually said on the road to Damascus was:

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:6

 

[blü 2]

That’s your view and that’s fine, but I think the scriptures reveal ONE God comprised of three co-eternal Persons.

No, with respect, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly denies that he's God and never claims to be God. The Trinity notion is a solution to a political problem that arose in the early church in the second century CE, how to make the central character of Christianity God. Various versions were proposed but were unsuccessful ─ that God was a partnership of two or three entities, that God was corporation with two or with three directors, and so on.

And the Trinity solution adopted in the 4th century is not only incoherent, a logical nonsense, but officially so, as I mentioned >here<.

It does work that way since God’s desire and plan was to create beings with freedom to choose. God is Love; there can be no real love without choice.

Not according to eg

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?

“Not only skeptics and atheists but also many who call themselves Christians often complain, “Why didn’t God make a perfect world without sin, suffering, or death? If He is all-powerful, surely He could have done that if He had so desired!” This common protest rests upon a very simple misunderstanding: the failure to recognize that God has given to all mankind the power of choice.

That argument doesn't account for God sitting on [his] hands and doing nothing while a child drowns in a pool, or innocent people are killed in an accident.

And it doesn't account for the observation that God is on the side of the big battalions. In your view, whose side is God on in Gaza or Ukraine right now?

 

[blü 2]

Your error is assuming that the Tanak refers to him as a messiah. He is referred to as the righteous servant.

He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:11

Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let YHWH be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant.
Psalms 35:27

Psalm 35 is one of the fulfilment verses of John 15.

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: [neither] let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause.
Psalms 35:19

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11

One notable false witnesses was Paul:
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:15-18

What was actually said on the road to Damascus was:

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Acts 9:6

Nothing in the Tanakh foretells Jesus. Nothing distinguishes him as a Jewish messiah ─ he was never a civil, military or religious leader of the Jewish nation nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood.

 

[Ebionite]

Nothing in the Tanakh foretells Jesus.

Ignoring the facts about the righteous servant only serves to show that your position is religious, not rational.

 

[blü 2]

Ignoring the facts about the righteous servant only serves to show that your position is religious, not rational.

Ignoring the ordinary procedures of historians only serves to show that your position is religious, not rational.

Prophecy is a political tool, not a source of information.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Doesn't everyone still pay this price for sin? Why was additionally that killing needed?
The greatest Christian mental gymnastics (to transform the failure of their Messiah candidate into victory) is the teaching that one innocent man had to be killed so that God can forgive us our sins.
I was lazy today. That's a sin. But God forgives me because one innocent man was tortured and put to death 2000 years ago. Now, this is the hight of mercy and justice!

.... and we can't stop sinning. Sin=Death. We can't resurrect oneself or another.
So, we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Rev. 1:18
Unlike Adam, sinless Jesus did Not start sinning.
Sinless Jesus could balance the Scales of Justice for us by dying faithful to God.
Where Adam failed under excellent conditions Jesus succeeded under very adverse conditions.
Sinner Satan challenges all of us: ' Touch our flesh...' (loose physical health) and No one would serve God. - Job 2:4-5
So, more than just forgiveness of sins but a returning to life for the dead sinners.
The Bible is about LIFE. A resurrection back to life on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day governing over Earth in righteousness for a thousand years - John 6:40,44)
Without a future life there is no lasting reason for anything one does .
That is why the world's expression is to eat, drink and be merry because tomorrow we die.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ignoring the ordinary procedures of historians only serves to show that your position is religious, not rational.
Prophecy is a political tool, not a source of information.

I find false clergy often are political tools especially during war times.
They have used the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their sons on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God which it is not.
What Jesus prophesied about is Not a political tool but forewarning us so that we are forewarned.
As the old adage goes that it is 'darkest before the dawn' is proving true.
The information found at 1st Thess. 5:2-3 informs us that when the powers in charge are saying, " Peace and Security....." that Rosy saying can lead people down that old Primrose Path to destruction.
Instead of Peace that saying will prove to be the precursor to the coming Great Tribulation of Rev. 7:14
Jesus with angelic armies will rid the earth of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15.
Jesus will separate the figurative humble sheep from the haughty goats - Matthew 25:31-34,37
Then through Jesus, as Prince of Peace, there will be Peace on Earth for persons of goodwill.

 

[Ebionite]

Ignoring the ordinary procedures of historians

Why do you think I'm doing that, and how would it affect your denial of the facts about the righteous servant?

Prophecy is a political tool, not a source of information.

You don't know what you're talking about. The connection between Balaam's vision of the star and sceptre and Michael Molnar's astrological solution for the Star of Bethlehem is beyond coincidence.

 

[InChrist]

No, with respect, each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly denies that he's God and never claims to be God. The Trinity notion is a solution to a political problem that arose in the early church in the second century CE, how to make the central character of Christianity God. Various versions were proposed but were unsuccessful ─ that God was a partnership of two or three entities, that God was corporation with two or with three directors, and so on.

And the Trinity solution adopted in the 4th century is not only incoherent, a logical nonsense, but officially so, as I mentioned >here<.

The concept of the Deity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit was already well established and understood by the early churches before the 4th century. It only became politicized when the doctrine was challenged and the Roman Church had become aligned with government.

“First, the doctrine of the Trinity was a widely held belief prior to the Council of Nicea. Since baptism is a universal act of obedience for new believers, it is significant that Jesus uses Trinitarian language in Matthew 28:19 when He gives the Great Commission to make disciples and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Didache, an early manual of church life, also included the Trinitarian language for baptism. It was written in either the late first or early second century after Christ. We find Trinitarian language again being used by Hippolytus around 200 A.D. in a formula used to question those about to be baptized. New believers were to asked to affirm belief in God the Father, Christ Jesus the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit.”

The Council of Nicea and the Doctrine of the Trinity

Don Closson argues that Constantine did not impose the doctrine of the Trinity on the church, demonstrating the role of church leaders and Constantine.

probe.org

Not according to eg

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city / and the people are not afraid? / Does evil befall a city / unless the LORD has done it?


That argument doesn't account for God sitting on [his] hands and doing nothing while a child drowns in a pool, or innocent people are killed in an accident.

And it doesn't account for the observation that God is on the side of the big battalions. In your view, whose side is God on in Gaza or Ukraine right now?

The scriptures you posted are in reference to temporal conditions on this fallen planet.”, as well as specific situations. They do not show or prove that individuals do not have the freedom to respond to God in one way or another. God is not sitting doing nothing. Jesus entered the world to live among us, go to the cross and rise In victory over death and sin to offer eternal life. This is a fallen, condemned world which will be destroyed. A new heaven and earth is coming free of sin and suffering for all who want and choose trust God and be there.

 

[blü 2]

The concept of the Deity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit was already well established and understood by the early churches before the 4th century.

There are hints of it early in the 2nd century, just none in the gospels or Paul, where those express denials I mentioned can be found.

It only became politicized when the doctrine was challenged and the Roman Church had become aligned with government.

No, as I mentioned, the form it should take was much disputed beforehand.

“[...] it is significant that Jesus uses Trinitarian language in Matthew 28:19

No, that's just an attempt at retrofit. What the author of Matthew did was mention Father, Jesus and Ghost in one sentence. Nothing in Matthew suggests they only have one identity.

The scriptures you posted are in reference to temporal conditions on this fallen planet.”

They're the words of the Tanakh. As I may have mentioned, in my view the Jewish religion has the Tanakh as its book, and if you want to know what it means theologically you should ask a Jewish authority.

,They do not show or prove that individuals do not have the freedom to respond to God in one way or another. God is not sitting doing nothing.

What is God sitting in [his] chair doing, in fact? As I may have asked you, is [he] cheering for the Israelis and approving the grotesque toll of Gazan citizens? Does [he] prefer Russian or Ukrainian Orthodoxy? Why is there no sign of divine will in either of those places (not to mention the rest of the world)?

Jesus entered the world to live among us, go to the cross and rise In victory over death and sin to offer eternal life.

I keep on asking what dying on the cross has to do with it, but I never seem to get a clear answer. An omnipotent God making a human sacrifice to [him]self is found in both the Tanakh and the NT, but I simply fail to understand why.

This is a fallen, condemned world which will be destroyed. A new heaven and earth is coming free of sin and suffering for all who want and choose trust God and be there.

By what means will that new world by any more free of human vices, moral or genetic, than the present one is?

 

[InChrist]

There are hints of it early in the 2nd century, just none in the gospels or Paul, where those express denials I mentioned can be found.


No, as I mentioned, the form it should take was much disputed beforehand.


No, that's just an attempt at retrofit. What the author of Matthew did was mention Father, Jesus and Ghost in one sentence. Nothing in Matthew suggests they only have one identity.


They're the words of the Tanakh. As I may have mentioned, in my view the Jewish religion has the Tanakh as its book, and if you want to know what it means theologically you should ask a Jewish authority.

Paul was Jewish, a Pharisee who knew and believed in the Tanakh and ONE God, yet he came to know and worship Jesus Christ.
I have listened to numerous accounts by Jewish people who have also…

I MET MESSIAH (Jewish Testimonies)

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What is God sitting in [his] chair doing, in fact? As I may have asked you, is [he] cheering for the Israelis and approving the grotesque toll of Gazan citizens? Does [he] prefer Russian or Ukrainian Orthodoxy? Why is there no sign of divine will in either of those places (not to mention the rest of the world)?

I’m not getting off on the wars taking place in this world or what side God is on or not. No doubt God is simply letting humans sin play out, the consequences are evident everywhere.

I keep on asking what dying on the cross has to do with it, but I never seem to get a clear answer. An omnipotent God making a human sacrifice to [him]self is found in both the Tanakh and the NT, but I simply fail to understand why.


By what means will that new world by any more free of human vices, moral or genetic, than the present one is?