Jesus Failed Right?

[IndigoChild5559]

Where did you get your number from?

Acts 21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

So many thousands would mean at least 3000, but less than 10,000.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Acts 21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.
So many thousands would mean at least 3000, but less than 10,000.

I recall Jesus fed thousands with bread and fish.
Being used to the old law many were still zealous for it. Only time would pass for them to adjust to the new.
Even Peter had to learn to adjust - Galatians 2:11-13 - think how hurt at first those Gentile converts must have felt.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I recall Jesus fed thousands with bread and fish.

Well, yes, that is what the legend is. And they were all Jews, not Christians.

Being used to the old law many were still zealous for it. Only time would pass for them to adjust to the new.

It wasn't "a matter of time." It is directly due to the ideas and missionary activities of Paul.

The animosity between the Paul camp and the James camp was palpable. When Paul was imprisoned in Rome, he lamented about how all the churches had abandoned him. But once he allowed the entrance of Hellenized Gentiles who did not keep the laws into the church, it avalanched into a new religion.

 

[metis]

That is just not the case. Judaism progresses. We have a long history of entertaining possibilities that we then rule out and discard.

Many people are unfamiliar with the commentary system used within Judaism that dates back long before Jesus' time and which Jesus used himself when he spoke out at shul. He operated within the Pharisee paradigm, thus often giving his own take on Torah.

 

[metis]

The animosity between the Paul camp and the James camp was palpable.

Ya, and it make me wonder whether they ever kissed & made up?

 

[Kenny]

Well "circumcision of the heart" ALWAYS matters, so Paul must have been speaking to physical circumcision. But I haven't anything to say, as I was just answering your request for NT text on the other posters position.
Namaste

That is correct.

Ultimately, as decided by those of leadership position and after the baptism of the Holy Spirit o to the family and friends of Cornelius, it was determined by all that circumcision was not a required act for salvation.

Think of it this way, what did it matter to God if one circumcised their flesh but offered sacrifices to Baal? Or, visa versa, if you followed all of God’s desires and never circumcised your flesh, is it the outward part that God is looking at or the heart.

It was the circumcision of the heart that God wanted.

Blessings!

 

[Kenny]

And why do you think Paul circumcised Timothy? Especially after he bragged about NOT circumcising Titus. Do you think it was because he supported Jewish law for believers?

Because he was seeking peace… blessed are the peacemakers.

I think the adjective of “bragging” was an interpretive statement but not what he was doing. Titus was Goyim..

 

[Kenny]

Your whole approach is based on a false assumption, that being that you think if any Jew espoused a view in the past, that this makes it a Jewish view. That is just not the case. Judaism progresses. We have a long history of entertaining possibilities that we then rule out and discard.

I gave you the REASONS why you are mistaken. I suggest you address those verses.

Absolutely… and I agree that your view has an application.

I think the two goats, one that is sacrificed and one that is led into the wilderness, also has an application that you would subscribe to. I believe that you would have another good viewpoint on the sacrifice of Isaac that also would be correct. The ram that substituted Isaac is on the same mountain where Jesus was our substitute perhaps even a stone throws away.

But it doesn’t detract that all of these point to Jesus Christ of whom the Moses, the prophets and the Psalms spoke about. At least according to my signature.

That being said, I am not requiring that those of Jewish decent agree with me. They are God’’s chosen people whom I bless and support.

 

[Kenny]

Acts 21:20
When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.

So many thousands would mean at least 3000, but less than 10,000.

I’m not sure how you set the parameters of what they were meaning of which, logically, I don’t believe because of what is written in Acts… but that being said:

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

That was just in Jerusalem.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Ya, and it make me wonder whether they ever kissed & made up?

I'm not an expert in it, but I seem to recall that the Jewish bishops and Ebionites were excluded from the council of Nicea. You don't really hear much more about them after that. They simply died out.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because he was seeking peace… blessed are the peacemakers.

So, NOT becuase he believed in believers observing Jewish law. That's my point.

I think the adjective of “bragging” was an interpretive statement but not what he was doing.

I would say bragging is very much the appropriate word.

Titus was Goyim..

Just nitpicking here, but you should know that the singular is goy, and the plural is goyim;

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I’m not sure how you set the parameters of what they were meaning of which, logically, I don’t believe because of what is written in Acts… but that being said:

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

That was just in Jerusalem.

Basically, if it had been 1000, that is expressed as a thousand. If it had been 2000, that is expressed by saying a couple of thousand. On the other side, if it had been over 10,000, it would have been expressed by saying "tens of thousands." Thus, my understanding that "many thousands" is somewhere between 3000 and 10000.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

That was just in Jerusalem.

Acts 21
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you.

Basically the scheme to have Paul participate with the offering of a sacrifice in the temple was designed to placate the believers who were angry at him for preaching against the law.

 

[Kenny]

So, NOT becuase he believed in believers observing Jewish law. That's my point.

That would be correct. It was a New Covenant that, for believers in Yeshua Hamashiach, wasn’t a requirement any more. One could do it, even I am circumcised, but it isn’t a requirement.

I would say bragging is very much the appropriate word.

OK… we can have differing viewpoints.

Just nitpicking here, but you should know that the singular is goy, and the plural is goyim;

Thank you!! I always am open for learning.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That would be correct. It was a New Covenant that, for believers in Yeshua Hamashiach, wasn’t a requirement any more. One could do it, even I am circumcised, but it isn’t a requirement.

And that would be the teachings of... Paul. Like I said, he undermined observance of the Law in a big way.

 

[Kenny]

Basically, if it had been 1000, that is expressed as a thousand. If it had been 2000, that is expressed by saying a couple of thousand. On the other side, if it had been over 10,000, it would have been expressed by saying "tens of thousands." Thus, my understanding that "many thousands" is somewhere between 3000 and 10000.

Yes… if it were 10’s of thousands, technically speaking, it would probably be 30 thousand or more, otherwise it would be a couple of ten’s of thousands.



It certainly was more than 10 thousand in my calculation.

 

[Kenny]

Acts 21
21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you.

Basically the scheme to have Paul participate with the offering of a sacrifice in the temple was designed to placate the believers who were angry at him for preaching against the law.

Actually, that was a ruse created by those who were against Paul.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

 

[Kenny]

And that would be the teachings of... Paul. Like I said, he undermined observance of the Law in a big way.

I guess you could look at it as “undermining”. I don’t think that The Law undermined the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant simply became fulfilled in Yeshua Hamashiach in the New Covenant.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I guess you could look at it as “undermining”. I don’t think that The Law undermined the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant. The Abrahamic Covenant simply became fulfilled in Yeshua Hamashiach in the New Covenant.

I'm not sure I understand you. The Law IS the covenant, or at least, the major part of it.

Yes, I realize that Paul taught the new covenant had come. It was part of his plan to undermine the law.

 

[Kenny]

I'm not sure I understand you. The Law IS the covenant, or at least, the major part of it.

Yes, I realize that Paul taught the new covenant had come. It was part of his plan to undermine the law.

I don’t believe so. They are separate covenants. One for the Jews, the other for the nations. Do you see the Mosaic law for the Goyim? (I got it right this time!)