Jesus Failed Right?

[IndigoChild5559]

What law do you preach or believe should be kept?

For Jews or for non-Jews?

 

[Nakosis]

He doesn't look to me like a good example to follow, but not for those reasons. It's because of his attitude and behavior in the gospel stories.

What behavior if I may ask?

 

[Nakosis]

Correct. Jesus cannot be the messiah because he did not do the things the Messiah is to do. For example, this:

Isaiah 2:4
He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Then who was Jesus?

 

[blü 2]

The issue was humanism. It connects to Rome via the Church and Paul's doctrine of original sin. There is an implicit disconnect between humans and the divine that is evident in the writings of Cicero and Blackstone.

Yes, most but not all forms of humanism don't devote much time to the supernatural.

While I'm grateful to the schoolmen of Paris ─ Aquinas, Abelard and friends ─ for the acknowledgement that the reality of God can't be demonstrated merely by assertions in a book, and for their embracing of scholasticism, and for their heirs, including some churchmen who explored reality with the early version of objectivity, it seems to me that the Enlightenment marks a further major turning point in educated Western thought, which has created today's world, and is allowing you and me to communicate at this moment.

This separation has a parallel in the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine is defective because of Paul's misrepresentation of David's sin. Romans 3, Psalm 51.

The David of Psalm 51 may have been morally discomforted for unstated reasons or he may have been ill (hyssop &c).

What do you say was David's sin there referred to?

In any event, modern scholarship is better placed to research an understanding of the psalms than Paul was.

And as far as original sin goes, plainly Ezekiel has ruled it out, which may be taken to demonstrate Paul's inability to understand , and / or lack of familiarity with, the Tanakh.

 

[Niatero]

What behavior if I may ask?

For example, he often insults his followers. He goes around preaching at people. He's disrespectful to his mother. I don't see any warmth or kindness in any of his interactions with people, Even when he washes the feet of the apostles, it's only to use it as an analogy for a sermon. When he has a child brought to him, it's only to use the child as a prop for another sermon.

(later) There might be some actual kindness in the healing that he does, and of course in teaching people about the kingdom, but do you see anything in his personal interactions with people that looks to you like a good example to follow?

 

[YoursTrue]

You speak of these things, YoursTrue, as if they are absolute truth and not just your personal religious beliefs.

Politics will not "save the world." War obviously will not save the world from its injustices and disasters. Yes, I believe the human race needs redemption by God. Thank you. If you don't believe that, that's your right.

 

[blü 2]

For example, he often insults his followers. He goes around preaching at people. He's disrespectful to his mother. I don't see any warmth or kindness in any of his interactions with people, Even when he washes the feet of the apostles, it's only to use it as an analogy for a sermon. When he has a child brought to him, it's only to use the child a a prop for another sermon.

And disrespectful to the other members of his family (Mark 3:31-35).

And there's this charming policy statement ─

Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.​

Not to mention his assault on the money-changers at the Temple who were lawfully going about their traditional business ─ people who couldn't change the rules anyway, but he seems to have failed to notice that his real disagreement was with the Temple authorities.

And there was his petulant destruction of the olive tree (Mark 11:12-14).

And did he ever pay compensation to the owner of the Gadarene swine? (Mark 5:1-20; Matthew 8:28-34; Luke 8:26-39)

 

[YoursTrue]

So… we are talking about two Covenants. Paul was preaching the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant - the New Covenant - that was before the Mosaic Law and supersedes it. But I think you already know how Paul applied it. Gal 3 - He didn’t say the Law was bad…
Romans 7:12
So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
I didn’t say the New Covenant of Jeremiah, I said the New Covenant of Abraham. That being said, the New Covenant, as added by Jeremiah, simply includes Israel for God has no exception of people. In Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) will all the nations be blessed. Israel first, and then the world. Both are included in the Abrahamic Covenant.
I love the image of the sacrifice of Isaac:
As Jesus said, “Abraham saw my day”.

Hi, Kenny. If I recall, there is the "Israel of God." I looked it up and see the following: at Galatians 6. I appreciate reading it again.

Paul wrote, "Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ. For the circumcised do not even keep the law themselves, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.
16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God."
(Berean Standard Bible)

 

[YoursTrue]

For example, he often insults his followers. He goes around preaching at people. He's disrespectful to his mother. I don't see any warmth or kindness in any of his interactions with people, Even when he washes the feet of the apostles, it's only to use it as an analogy for a sermon. When he has a child brought to him, it's only to use the child as a prop for another sermon.

(later) There might be some actual kindness in the healing that he does, and of course in teaching people about the kingdom, but do you see anything in his personal interactions with people that looks to you like a good example to follow?

I've heard these arguments before. They don't stand up. Jesus was a great teacher and a healer. Mary, his mother, did not get offended when he called her 'woman.' In fact, she responded favorably to his direction. A good teacher always leads by example and illustration. You don't have to appreciate these things, just as the nation itself did not appreciate what God did for them many times.

 

[blü 2]

I've heard these arguments before. They don't stand up. Jesus was a great teacher and a healer. Mary, his mother, did not get offended when he called her 'woman.' In fact, she responded favorably to his direction. A good teacher always leads by example and illustration. You don't have to appreciate these things, just as the nation itself did not appreciate what God did for them many times.

Just above (#447) I've added a number of other less than lovely things the NT says about Jesus. For instance, in Matthew 10:34+ he says out loud that he has come to start fights and split loving relationships and that anyone who doesn't like that can just suck it up.

As for assaulting the moneychangers in the Temple who were trading lawfully and had no power to change the rules anyway, that must have been just for show since his real argument was with the temple authorities and there's no record of his ever approaching them.

 

[Ebionite]

What do you say was David's sin there referred to?

The same language is used in Romans 3:4 as in Psalms 51:4.

And as far as original sin goes, plainly Ezekiel has ruled it out, which may be taken to demonstrate Paul's inability to understand , and / or lack of familiarity with, the Tanakh.

The doctrine of original works against the presumption of innocence. It can be used by the religious elite to sell their doctrineof salvation.

 

[Ebionite]

As for assaulting the moneychangers in the Temple who were trading lawfully and had no power to change the rules anyway, that must have been just for show since his real argument was with the temple authorities and there's no record of his ever approaching them.

The account of the whip from the gospel of John is an outlier. Whenever John disagrees with the synoptics John's account favours the Pharisees.

 

[blü 2]

The account of the whip from the gospel of John is an outlier. Whenever John disagrees with the synoptics John's account favours the Pharisees.

Still, if the story be true, it was really dumb of Jesus to assault the money changers and not the people at the Temple in charge of policy.

 

[Ebionite]

Still, if the story be true, it was really dumb of Jesus to assault the money changers and not the people at the Temple in charge of policy.

Also hypocritical if the accounts from the synoptics of the condemnation of violence are true as well.

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge [things] that I knew not.
Psalms 35:11

 

[Niatero]

Jesus was a great teacher and a healer.

Yes, I added that to my post. Now I'm looking for examples of his personal interactions with people that are good examples for us to follow.

 

[Ajax]

Why would you conclude Jesus forgot what he said ?
Yes, Jesus meant what he said because when Jesus was alive on Earth was only only only to Israel.

That's exactly my point, thank you. When Jesus was alive on Earth he was only sent to preach to Jews.
So later on, must have changed his mind.
Can a God change his mind?
Well, the writers certainly could...because when the Acts were written roughly between 90-100 AD, Paul had already established a gentile Christian movement, and obviously the writers, having witnessed the rejection by the Jews, had to support the idea that Jesus came for all the people of the world. The same applies to all the gospels too.

 

[Ajax]

I disagree by what is written.

Rejection of Jesus - Wikipedia

 

[Kenny]

You may be. I'm not.

I'm only talking about one covenant -- the one between God and Israel, version 1.0 with Abraham, and version 2.0 with Moses.

There is no "new covenant" mentioned in Genesis. There is only the covenant with Abraham. The only mention of any "new covenant" is in Jeremiah,, and has not yet taken place.

You have basically become incomprehensible to me. I have no clue what you mean.

Any time there is blood shed and promises are given… it is a Covenant.

Nothing is mentioned about a Noahic Covenant - but it was a Covenant.

There is a Covenant beyond the Priesthood of Aaron - that which is after the order of Melchizedek of which Abraham paid - two Covenants. IMV and in the view of the Jewish writers of the New Covenant.

 

[Kenny]

Hi, Kenny. If I recall, there is the "Israel of God." I looked it up and see the following: at Galatians 6. I appreciate reading it again.

Paul wrote, "Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ. For the circumcised do not even keep the law themselves, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.
16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God."
(Berean Standard Bible)

Very interesting… it is given me pause to Selah on this scripture.

 

[Kenny]

Rejection of Jesus - Wikipedia

I’m sure you have a point to this. Have I said that there were not Jews who rejected Jesus?