Jesus Failed Right?

[IndigoChild5559]

I'm not talking about what might have actually happened. I'm talking about what happens in the stories. In the stories, the authorities don't dare make any move against Jesus in public. Also, there's nothing in the story saying that there was any havoc. That's a popular image in people's minds, but considered in the larger context, nothing in the story is actually any reason for thinking that, not even the whip.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that it happened the way described in the gospel.

It was VIOLENT. It says he OVERTURNED the tables. It says he took a WHIP and DROVE them out. We are talking not only vandalism, but also assault. It is clearly the scene of a vigilante. Let's assume he had a genuine beef, which is doubtful He needed to take it to the courts, not take the law into his own hands.

 

[Niatero]

Of course there was havoc according to scripture... John 2:15 "And making a whip of cords, he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables."
I think the gospels enlarge Jesus image by far, making him look indestructible from the authorities (the authorities didn't dare make any move against Jesus in public). Under normal circumstances, he would have been arrested, if not killed.

On another note, I have the impression that most Jesus acts which were connected with "prophecies", were invented by the gospel writers, and this particular one was based on Jeremiah 7:11-15. The reasons are obvious.

I think that people are reading things into the story that aren't there. If it happens the way I think it happens, then I think that calling it "havoc" is overdramatizing it. I'll try to fill in my picture of what's happening. Jesus is telling a story using words and actions. Part of the story is that he has all of the authority of God, including authority over what happens in the temple. His authority is above the authority of the temple authorities. In fact, the authority that they claim is from him. He comes to the temple to teach and heal people for a few days. In preparation for his teaching and healing, he calmly and confidently tells the shopkeepers to leave, and they do. He calmly pours out the coins and turns the tables and seats on their sides to make it clear that they are not to do any selling as long as he is there teaching. He makes a whip and holds it while he's herding the sheep and cattle out of the square, because that's what people do when they are herding cattle. You can call that "havoc" if you want to, but that looks to me like overdramatizing it.

(later) I don’t remember how that idea came to me. Until a few days ago I always imagined it as a fit of rage like other people were saying. Somehow when I was thinking about whether or not that would be a sin according to his teachings, I started wondering “Wait. Is that actually what’s happening here?” I took another look at what all the gospels say about it, and decided not. In the larger context of the story, it makes more sense to me to see it as a part of his story and what he intended to do when he came to the temple.

 

[Ajax]

I think that people are reading things into the story that aren't there. If it happens the way I think it happens, then I think that calling it "havoc" is overdramatizing it. I'll try to fill in my picture of what's happening. Jesus is telling a story using words and actions. Part of the story is that he has all of the authority of God, including authority over what happens in the temple. His authority is above the authority of the temple authorities. In fact, the authority that they claim is from him. He comes to the temple to teach and heal people for a few days. In preparation for his teaching and healing, he calmly and confidently tells the shopkeepers to leave, and they do. He calmly pours out the coins and turns the tables and seats on their sides to make it clear that they are not to do any selling as long as he is there teaching. He makes a whip and holds it while he's herding the sheep and cattle out of the square, because that's what people do when they are herding cattle. You can call that "havoc" if you want to, but that looks to me like overdramatizing it.

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but the problem with scripture however, is that many of its possible interpretations (including most of the literal ones) can be used to justify falsehoods, contradictions and atrocities, in defense of the faith.

May I ask you, why the shopkeepers would leave if someone unknown tells them calmly so, when they had permission from the Temple authorities to stay and sell animals for sacrifices or to exchange money to shekels, that was used for the payment of the annual temple tax?

Jesus did not object to sacrifices. He claimed boldly that nothing will change in the Law. And nothing could be more central to the law than the sacrifices.

 

[Niatero]

Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, but the problem with scripture however, is that many of its possible interpretations (including most of the literal ones) can be used to justify falsehoods, contradictions and atrocities, in defense of the faith.

May I ask you, why the shopkeepers would leave if someone unknown tells them calmly so, when they had permission from the Temple authorities to stay and sell animals for sacrifices or to exchange money to shekels, that was used for the payment of the annual temple tax?

Again, I’m talking about what the story says, not what might have actually happened. In the story, at this time he is a prophet in popular thinking, so much that the highest authorities in the kingdom don’t dare move against him in public. Also, he has an aura of authority that inspires obedience. People say that about him, that he speaks with authority. The shopkeepers might already know him and about his popularity, or even consider him a prophet themselves. Even if they don’t, the power of his presence moves them to obey without any second thoughts. Maybe they think that he could be some higher authority that they haven’t seen before, or maybe they don’t think about it at all.

 

[Muffled]

Ok, so Jesus had to give himself over to the plan of the spirit. Not act according to his own plan.

I believe the mind was well informed by the Spirit of the plan.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, not at all, by far (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people) was most successful Israelite Messenger/Prophet as was Jonah before him, this he himself claimed even as per the Pauline NT- Bible , please, right?

Regards

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, not at all, by far (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people) was most successful Israelite Messenger/Prophet as was Jonah before him, this he himself claimed even as per the Pauline NT- Bible , please, right?

Regards

(I don't even understand what you are saying, so that's ok.)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Zionism people nor to the Judaism people

Horrible English. Fix it. please right?

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, not at all, by far (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people) was most successful Israelite Messenger/Prophet as was Jonah before him, this he himself claimed even as per the Pauline NT- Bible , please, right?
Who say's that Yeshua was not a successful person, and on what basis/reasons/arguments, please, right??

Regards

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Zionism people nor to the Judaism people)

Bad English. Fix it. right please?

 

[firedragon]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

The problem is, you don't know what his mission exactly was. So only God would know if he failed or succeeded in his mission.

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples.

Bollocks. Apostle and disciple are different words.

 

[YoursTrue]

The problem is, you don't know what his mission exactly was. So only God would know if he failed or succeeded in his mission.

You know in a way that's true, because -- (1) he was resurrected, (2) he appeared to his disciples, (3) he ascended to heaven, and (4) he was made King. That's what I read, understand and believe.

 

[Nakosis]

Bollocks. Apostle and disciple are different words.

Ok, if that is your only argument.

 

[Nakosis]

The problem is, you don't know what his mission exactly was. So only God would know if he failed or succeeded in his mission.

You don't believe the Bible? Jesus stated what his mission was.

 

[Spice]

Bollocks. Apostle and disciple are different words.

I believe at his death he had 11 Apostles and 70 disciples. Not a bad core group.

 

[firedragon]

You know in a way that's true, because -- (1) he was resurrected, (2) he appeared to his disciples, (3) he ascended to heaven, and (4) he was made King. That's what I read, understand and believe.

Yes. From the Christian point of view, what you say could be absolutely true. Also, Jesus is to come back. And his mission is still not over. If we think we know better than God, that's self worship. A problem with many.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

You don't believe the Bible? Jesus stated what his mission was.

I don't believe the Bible. I am taking a methodological approach here.

1. Luke 4:18-19: Jesus reads from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth, proclaiming his mission:
   

   “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

2. Mark 10:45: Jesus explains the purpose of his coming:
   

   “For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

3. John 3:16-17: In his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus summarizes his mission:
   

   “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

4. John 10:10: Jesus speaks about his mission to bring abundant life:
   

   “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.”

5. John 12:46-47: Jesus speaks about his mission as the light of the world:
   

   “I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.”

Also Nakosis, Jesus is coming back in the Christian faith. Thus, his mission is not over yet.

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus Failed Right?

No, not at all, by far (Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ( who was neither a Zealot, nor he belonged to the Zionism people nor to the Judaism people) was most successful Israelite Messenger/Prophet as was Jonah before him, this he himself claimed even as per the Pauline NT- Bible , please, right?
Who say's that Yeshua was not a successful person, and on what basis/reasons/arguments, please, right??

Bad English. Fix it. right please?

One means that one agrees with the contents of the rest of the post and has understood the message therein , excepting the bad English of the term "Zionism people " please, right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't believe the Bible. I am taking a methodological approach here.

1. Luke 4:18-19: Jesus reads from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth, proclaiming his mission:
2. Mark 10:45: Jesus explains the purpose of his coming:
3. John 3:16-17: In his conversation with Nicodemus, Jesus summarizes his mission:
4. John 10:10: Jesus speaks about his mission to bring abundant life:
5. John 12:46-47: Jesus speaks about his mission as the light of the world:

Also Nakosis, Jesus is coming back in the Christian faith. Thus, his mission is not over yet.

" (@firedragon said in the post) Also Nakosis, Jesus is coming back in the Christian faith. "

That is not the case, Yeshua is not to come in the Pauline-Christianity people, he is to come in the followers of Muhammad, please, right?

Regards