Jesus - First Born?

[Brian2]

No, Brian2, the better option is that God is ONE BEING and was alone in Heaven as that one being. And He, and He alone, spread out the heavens and the earth is the work of His hands.

That would be the better and easier option if that is what the scriptures told us, but they don't.

How can Jesus Christ be Heir to God if he, Jesus, IS GOD?

"Heir to God" what does that mean exactly? The Son became a man, the only begotten of the Father and emptied Himself to be the servant of God but does also inherit all back as the risen Lord.

The purpose of the messiah being foretold and foreknown in the mind of God is that he should come into being, live an exemplary life, perform all that God sent him to do, put himself into the way of the sacrificial lamb, die for the salvation of mankind (‘You must name him, ‘Jesus’, for he shall save his people: the spiritual Israelites), be raised up again, taken up to Heaven, be seated NEXT TO GOD at His right hand - the right hand of power, be made to rule over creation until all creation is brought back under the power of God whence he, Jesus, HANDS BACK THE RULERSHIP TO GOD.

He hands back the Kingdom, not the rulership. He rules forever over the one Kingdom, the Kingdom of God and the fullness of Deity will dwell bodily in Him.
All things in heaven and earth, both visible and invisible were created through and for Him. (Col 1)

 

[Soapy]

That would be the better and easier option if that is what the scriptures told us, but they don't.



"Heir to God" what does that mean exactly? The Son became a man, the only begotten of the Father and emptied Himself to be the servant of God but does also inherit all back as the risen Lord.



He hands back the Kingdom, not the rulership. He rules forever over the one Kingdom, the Kingdom of God and the fullness of Deity will dwell bodily in Him.
All things in heaven and earth, both visible and invisible were created through and for Him. (Col 1)

Brian2, should I keep answering you so that if forces you to be even more irreverent?

 

[Soapy]

The Angel of the LORD, sometimes referenced as the Angel of God is just that - the Angel of the LORD/God - An angel sent by God. I agree that sometimes in the OT scripture the Angel of the LORD spoke in the first person AS God so there seems to be a blending together of when God was speaking, and His angel was speaking.
God chose to speak through or by the prophets because of the fear the Israelites had when He spoke to them giving the Ten Commandments. The Israelites asked for God not speak to them lest they die so from that point on God chose prophets to speak FOR Him - the words were FROM Him so in that sense - they spoke FOR God AS God, in God's stead.

And that is your mistake - "all" carries the meaning of either "all with distinction"(in a limited sense) or "all without distinction".
There is also a figure of speech used in this verse 16 called "encircling" - the verse begins with "For by him all things were created" and ends with "all things were created through him and for him" indicating the context of the things that were created "in heaven and earth, visible (earth) or invisible (heaven) whether thrones, dominions, rulers or authorities". (E.W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible)
There are strong parallels in this verse with Ephesians 1:21, 22 - "that he (God) worked in Christ when he (God) raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church which is his body"

If anything, Mark 10 distinguishes Jesus from God.

Those verses in Isaiah about "who is comparable to God" is in relation to idols. . . . . Isaiah 40:18 To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him? AN IDOL! A craftsman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold and casts for it silver chains.
Isaiah 46:1 Bel bows down; Nebo stoops; their idols are on beasts and livestock; . . . 5) To whom will you liken me and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be alike? 6) Those who lavish gold from the purse, and weigh out silver in the scales, hire a goldsmith and he makes it into a god; then the fall down and worship.

For the Father (God) judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, (John 5:22) And he (God) has given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. (5:27)
Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father (God) who sent me. (John 8:16) Again, Jesus is clearly distinguished from God.

Jesus became a life giving spirit after his resurrection - he was "sown a natural body", i.e. "the natural" first, and "raised a spiritual body", i.e. then the "spiritual". Adam is awaiting the resurrection from the dead. If Adam has been resurrected, then Jesus is not the "firstborn from the dead" or the "firstfruits of them that sleep".
The first man was of the dust of the earth (flesh), the second man from heaven, i.e. from God. "from heaven" is synonymous with from God who is in heaven. And as Jesus is in heaven in his resurrected body so will all those bear that image upon resurrection -
(1 Cor. 15:52b) For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable; and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality - there is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body.

Nobody has seen the invisible God - Jesus Christ came to declare Him, i.e. make him known.
The second statement is a lie - Jesus was totally human and started his existence in the womb of Mary.
1 Cor. 15 is totally about the resurrection!!!
Jesus is the man from heaven - He came from God who is in heaven. God sent him in that he came into existence in the womb of Mary via the power of the Most High.

John 3:2: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God.”

I, too, agree that this is what Jesus told the Jews… that he “Came from God” and not what trinitarian translators chose to claim (‘came from Heaven’).

Jesus told us in the last book of Revelation that there would be those who would add or remove (modify) the word of God. Trinitarians do not bemused that anything in the scriptures had been modified since it is they themselves (their founding members) who did the modifications.

Without the claim that Jesus ‘Came from Heaven’ they would have more rapidly lost their false arguments. But Satan is not sleeping and certainly saw to it that false claims were set I place. But hear the thing: God is not sleeping either, and he makes sure NOT ALL SCRIPTURES is modified such that the truth could not be rectified to discerning believers.
The verse I gave you was happily missed by the translators and upholds the clsim that if is rightly that Jesus ‘Came from God’.

Additionally, Jesus always said that he was ‘Sent by God’. This SENDING was certainly after Jesus had been anointed by God. Jesus read from the scroll in the synagogue where it was written in prophesy about him… he ended with: ‘This day that prophesy had been fulfilled in me’.

And note that it was only after this event that he started his mission: 30 years after he was born. Are we to believe that ‘God hid himself in the body of a man for 30 years before acquiring the power to perform the acts of God’?

It’s more than likely that God waited to see if Jesus would live as a man in holiness before testing him. I had a notion that this 30 years was the same amount of time before Adam sinned.

Trinity says that Jesus said:

• ‘I was sent from Heaven’
• ‘I came from Heaven’
• ‘No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.’

We that Jesus said:

• ‘I was sent by God’
• ‘I was sent from God’
• ‘I came from God’
• ‘No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from God —the Son of Man.’

Isn’t it funny that the trinity claim is that Jesus came from Heaven as God and went back up and is there now AS A MAN!!!???

And also, Jesus says that no one can enter Heaven unless they have been reborn. Well, Jesus was certainly REBORN as he was raised up from the grave… He tells that a seed cannot grow and produce fruit unless it FIRST DIES and is buried in the ground. It must die before it can be reborn as a new plant.

And, again, the Manna from Heaven’… ‘Heaven’, really???

No! Heaven is the realm of Spirit. There is no matter in Heaven. You are right that the verse properly reads:

• ‘Manna that came from God’

God created Manna out of matter in the material world. If anything else it could mean would be:

• ‘Manna from the Heavens’

which means:

• ‘Manna from the skies’

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, should I keep answering you so that if forces you to be even more irreverent?

I don't want you to feel guilty about my irreverence. But it is up to you. And really you aren't forcing me to be anything.

 

[amazing grace]

Ex 24:9 Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness. 11 And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.
Yes the one sent is not the one who sends. It is in a trinitarian sense of a 3 persons in the one God that this is possible and the Father and Son are both called YHWH.

What gets exhausting in this type of discussion is the repetition. I read the scriptures you quoted in your previous post. The difficulty comes from what God told Moses when Moses asked to see his glory and told him "'But, he said, 'you cannot see my face, for man shall not see my face and live.'" So, did Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders of Israel actually SEE thr God of Israel or His glory in the cloud or did God lie to Moses or did God contradict Himself?

If Jesus was "good" then He is God. Isn't that what Jesus said, just like saying that if someone kills the body they cannot kill the soul means that the soul lives on after the death of the body.

So if someone is good they are God or at least equivalent to God? Jesus was good as well as others are good but God is the ultimate good and no one is as good as God Himself.

Maybe you should read the Psalms in the 11 verse I gave.

I apologize but no, I did not read them although NOW I can say that I have. And after reading each of them I am wondering why? I agree that God is the Almighty and that there is no one who can be compared to His aweome greatness.

So saying "YHWH is coming to judge the earth" is the same as saying "Jesus is coming to judge the earth". Hmmm we agree.

Nope, Yahweh is going to judge the earth THROUGH His Son, His Christ His anointed King because He has GIVEN that authority to His Son, His Christ, His anointed king.

All I was asking was about Matt 10:28, and specifically the bit that you refuse to even mention.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
So at the death of the body of Jesus, His soul was not killed,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, iow His soul was still living.
Is it that you think that for us humans the only thing that is alive is the body and to soul is a non living thing?
I see the soul (as spoken about in the NT esp) as being the essence of a person, the part that preserves the person so that a body can be revived by the soul re entering the body, or any body for that matter. If the soul of a person made a wooded body alive, that would be a resurrection into a wooded body. Without this soul (the continuance of the person) to enter and make the body alive again, there cannot be a resurrection of the person,,,,,,,,,,, all there can be is making a copy of the person. It will be the actual person who is judge when Jesus returns however and then both the body and the soul might be destroyed in Gehenna. That is the second death and is the final stage in the dying of a person.

And I gave you what I believed Jesus was teaching. I believe God and His Christ are very capable of knowing us and reviving our "dry bones/dust" and giving us life in the resurrection. That revived resurrected person will be judged righteous and given eternal life or judged unrighteous and their body/soul destroyed in the second death.

One means One of course but One can mean a compound one, meaning 2 or more things united to make the one.

One means one as when you look at one individual you see one person.
One can also be one in unity and purpose as in the body of Christ being one body with many members working together in unity and purpose of reconciling people to God. One as in a husband and wife, two individuals, in unity and purpose in the running of their household and raising their children.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes God knew that Jesus would be delivered up.

That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point is that something or someone can pre-exist in God's foreknowledge which is not a literal pre-existence.

Since the word "became" does not exist in relation to the second Adam (Jesus) so it is good to not interpret the passage as needing it, and so adding it. It changes the meaning.
The passage is not talking about a resurrection of the first Adam so why say it is talking about a resurrection of the second Adam?

Adam is included in the 1 Cor. 15 for a reason. You are right that one passage is not about the resurrection of Adam but the whole context of this section is and we shouldn't take a single verse out of a context for understanding.
It is being used as a comparison between the first man Adam and the last Adam - two men . . . Even without inserting "became" the meaning within the context is the same - Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit - and it was in the resurrection of Jesus that he is a life-giving spirit. It specifically indicates that it is NOT the spiritual that is first but the natural THEN the spiritual which is why it says "the man from heaven" = the one raised from the dead and given a new spiritual body by God.

Jesus humility was to God, His equal. That is how Jesus is a good example of humility with our equals. Jesus could have said, "No, I think it best if I don't become a man and suffer" but no, He bowed to the will of God and became a man and servant of God.

Paul addressed the Corinthian church: "So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests but also to the interest of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus." THEN he goes into Jesus's example of humility - He did not draw upon his status as a Son, as the Christ, as the anointed king but humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point os death, even death on the cross. Now does this specifically point out his obedience to God - yes, it does, but it also draws upon the fact that Jesus could have relied upon his status and considered himself above others as the context in the beginning of Phil. 2 is saying. Did Jesus wash the disciples' feet? Did Jesus put others needs before his? And does this humility toward others just extend to our equals? I don't believe so. Jesus showed that in serving those who were poor, needy, physically disabled, etc.

If the Word was like God then the Word was alive with the God. His existence was therefore real. The Word could not be qualitatively like God if the Word was not alive.
This means that it is best to get our definition of the Word and what/who it is, from the text and not make up our mind beforehand and allow that to blind us to what the text tells us.
The text is telling us that the Word is qualitatively like God and so is alive, is a real person and not a thing or plan only existing in the mind of God.

The above sounds good and applicable if the word is a person. The word is not a person and was not a person until John 1:14 when "the word became flesh". OT believers knew the Messiah would be a man, a prophet like Moses sent from/by God. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the apostles all knew that the Messiah would be a man, a prophet like Moses sent from/by God because that is what was prophesied through God's word. They never would have thought God was coming to earth as a man (which I believe was Gnostic but I am not sure). God's logos became flesh; what God promised via His spoken and written word became flesh.

Nope, Jesus decided to obey when God sent Him.

Nope, God sent His only Son to become a man and He obeyed and came and was begotten on earth as a man.

That is not what John 3:16 says.

The living Word was with God and was God from eternity and the living Word, the Son of God who comes from God, was sent to become a Jewish man and when the fulness of time had come, God sent His only begotten Son, the spotless Lamb, to be baptised and to then redeem those under the law. (Gal 4:4,5)

The word was with God - of course, His words are with Him in his mind, his thoughts, his intentions. Those words within God; in God's foreknowledge came to fruition when the word became flesh in and through the life of his Son. The Son is not God - God is the not the Lamb - God has no need to be baptized and it takes the shedding of blood for remission of sins, redemption - God is immortal, cannot die.

 

[Brian2]

What gets exhausting in this type of discussion is the repetition. I read the scriptures you quoted in your previous post. The difficulty comes from what God told Moses when Moses asked to see his glory and told him "'But, he said, 'you cannot see my face, for man shall not see my face and live.'" So, did Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders of Israel actually SEE thr God of Israel or His glory in the cloud or did God lie to Moses or did God contradict Himself?

Yes there is a lot of repetition and it can be hard to understand the scriptures at times.
God said to Moses that Moses could not see His face and live, but Moses spoke to God face to face.
People no doubt understand it is different ways and my way is to say that God did not appear to Moses in the form and glory He had from eternity. It was still God but with the glory covered up somehow. The invisible God was in disguise.

So if someone is good they are God or at least equivalent to God? Jesus was good as well as others are good but God is the ultimate good and no one is as good as God Himself.

Only Jesus was sinless. Only Jesus has the same nature as God His Father, the Divine Nature that is not overcome by the darkness, and does not sin.

I apologize but no, I did not read them although NOW I can say that I have. And after reading each of them I am wondering why? I agree that God is the Almighty and that there is no one who can be compared to His aweome greatness.

Jesus has the same nature, Jesus has the same glory, Jesus can do what the Father does and does do all that the Father does.
Even as a man it was like this but just as God hides His true glory etc Jesus did that for a start so that we could look on Him and not die and also so that He would be living as the man He was and not using His Divine attributes.

Nope, Yahweh is going to judge the earth THROUGH His Son, His Christ His anointed King because He has GIVEN that authority to His Son, His Christ, His anointed king.

Yes that is true. But it is not going to be the Father who comes to earth to judge it even though the OT tells us that it will be YHWH. It is going to be the Son, and it is the Son whome we wait for.

And I gave you what I believed Jesus was teaching. I believe God and His Christ are very capable of knowing us and reviving our "dry bones/dust" and giving us life in the resurrection. That revived resurrected person will be judged righteous and given eternal life or judged unrighteous and their body/soul destroyed in the second death.

If, as the scriptures tell us, we sleep in death, then we can be revived, woken up. Our soul can be returned to a body and we will live again, because our soul is what carries the essence of what we are.
1Kings 17:22 Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.
The word is 'soul' even though most translations have 'life'. The soul of the boy did not die with the death of his body and so could return to the boy.
If the soul, the essence of who he was, did not survive then God would have to make a copy of that soul and put it in the body. God could do that and the boy probably would think he was the original, same memories etc, but would be a copy only.
In fact God could do that with you or I at the moment. He could make a copy of our soul/essence and put it in a body and it would think it was you or I but would be just a copy, and you and I would be alive to know that it would be just a copy.
It all boils down to "Whoever told you that humans do not exist after the death of the body, is mistaken in their interpretation of the scriptures".
We find passages that show that the soul survives but no passages say that the soul goes out of existence.
There are passages that tell us the state of the dead, but not that the dead do not exist.
I cannot find any.

One means one as when you look at one individual you see one person.
One can also be one in unity and purpose as in the body of Christ being one body with many members working together in unity and purpose of reconciling people to God. One as in a husband and wife, two individuals, in unity and purpose in the running of their household and raising their children.

Being in unity and purpose hopefully is part of being part of the body of Christ and also with a husband and wife, and with the Father and Son also.
It is more than being in unity and purpose however.

1Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined4 to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

We do not become one with God, we are creatures. We taste of the Divine nature through the Spirit in us and we grow into the fullness of the man Jesus Christ.
So many spirits become one spirit with Christ and so are joined spiritually to each other in the body of Christ, which is being led by the Spirit.
And a those who have sex become one body with each other. 2 people one body.
With God it is more than one person, but one God.
Ephes 5:31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.…

If it is a mystery then it is also imo, a mystery how God can be more than one (person) but one (God).

 

[Brian2]

That really wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point is that something or someone can pre-exist in God's foreknowledge which is not a literal pre-existence.

Yes, we all pre exist in God's foreknowledge, which is not a literal pre-existence. So we could all say that we came from heaven and came from God and shared God's glory before the foundation of the world. And that makes what Jesus said and what others said about Jesus pre existence as just something that means nothing special about Jesus and ends up just confusing people who read it with it's plain meaning.

Adam is included in the 1 Cor. 15 for a reason. You are right that one passage is not about the resurrection of Adam but the whole context of this section is and we shouldn't take a single verse out of a context for understanding.
It is being used as a comparison between the first man Adam and the last Adam - two men . . . Even without inserting "became" the meaning within the context is the same - Adam became a living being; the last Adam a life-giving spirit - and it was in the resurrection of Jesus that he is a life-giving spirit. It specifically indicates that it is NOT the spiritual that is first but the natural THEN the spiritual which is why it says "the man from heaven" = the one raised from the dead and given a new spiritual body by God.

Yes I suppose Jesus resurrection body was from heaven (2Cor 5:1-10) but I don't think that is what makes Jesus a life giving spirit. It is also that He came from heaven and was a life giving spirit and has gone back to that role now also, as the Son of God who was in the form of God. He is more than we are and went back to that but at the same time has the resurrection body from heaven. But as I said this resurrection body is not what made Him a life giving spirit and afaik, we also do not become spirits or life giving spirits at the resurrection.
Eph 4:9What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the very One who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.
He is different to what we will be and was in eternity but we will be like Him and don't know exactly what that will be like yet.

Paul addressed the Corinthian church: "So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from rivalry or conceit but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests but also to the interest of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus." THEN he goes into Jesus's example of humility - He did not draw upon his status as a Son, as the Christ, as the anointed king but humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point os death, even death on the cross. Now does this specifically point out his obedience to God - yes, it does, but it also draws upon the fact that Jesus could have relied upon his status and considered himself above others as the context in the beginning of Phil. 2 is saying. Did Jesus wash the disciples' feet? Did Jesus put others needs before his? And does this humility toward others just extend to our equals? I don't believe so. Jesus showed that in serving those who were poor, needy, physically disabled, etc.

Jesus example of humility is this. He emptied Himself and took the form of a servant, a man, and then became obedient to the death. But the first thing He did was to decide to become a servant and a man, then He did that. I find it hard to see how you can say that all this happened after He became a human when it tells us that He emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born a man.
Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

The above sounds good and applicable if the word is a person. The word is not a person and was not a person until John 1:14 when "the word became flesh". OT believers knew the Messiah would be a man, a prophet like Moses sent from/by God. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the apostles all knew that the Messiah would be a man, a prophet like Moses sent from/by God because that is what was prophesied through God's word. They never would have thought God was coming to earth as a man (which I believe was Gnostic but I am not sure). God's logos became flesh; what God promised via His spoken and written word became flesh.

Nope, in order to be God qualitatively He needed to be alive, iow He was already a person.
But yes the Jews weren't expecting the real Son of God who has the same nature as God. That is the reason they wanted to stone Him on occasion. That is the reason that they saw was blasphemy and condemned Him to death.
It is Jesus, the chief cornerstone that they rejected and stumbled on and He was the rock of offense, they were offended as whom He said He was. We can see a human Messiah but can also see a divine Messiah in the OT.

The word was with God - of course, His words are with Him in his mind, his thoughts, his intentions. Those words within God; in God's foreknowledge came to fruition when the word became flesh in and through the life of his Son. The Son is not God - God is the not the Lamb - God has no need to be baptized and it takes the shedding of blood for remission of sins, redemption - God is immortal, cannot die.

If the Divine Son, the Word who had to be alive, became a man then He can be the Lamb and shed blood, and at the death of His body, His soul lived on and was not dead (Matt 10:28) That is just like the rest of us, and does not mean that our souls are immortal.
And it is intresting that Jesus did not claim to be God, but to be the Son of God who came from heaven, from His Father. This is the Son of God John wants us to believe in and through Him have eternal life.
The Son who is in His Father and His Father is in Him and is one with His Father (in more ways that unity and harmony.)
He did not need to be baptised for the forgiveness of sins by John true but said that He would do it anyway. He was a man, living as a man, and needed the Holy Spirit to preach and do miracles etc and that is what He got.
He was Lord and Christ from His birth (Luke 2:11)

 

[amazing grace]

Yes there is a lot of repetition and it can be hard to understand the scriptures at times.
God said to Moses that Moses could not see His face and live, but Moses spoke to God face to face.
People no doubt understand it is different ways and my way is to say that God did not appear to Moses in the form and glory He had from eternity. It was still God but with the glory covered up somehow. The invisible God was in disguise.

When I take into consideration what God told Moses - I believe that when Moses spoke to God "face to face", it just means that Moses was in the presence of God.

Only Jesus was sinless. Only Jesus has the same nature as God His Father, the Divine Nature that is not overcome by the darkness, and does not sin.

So, you equate being good as sinless? I don't.

Jesus has the same nature, Jesus has the same glory, Jesus can do what the Father does and does do all that the Father does.
Even as a man it was like this but just as God hides His true glory etc Jesus did that for a start so that we could look on Him and not die and also so that He would be living as the man He was and not using His Divine attributes.

Jesus is a human being. Jesus was given glory. Jesus did what God his Father did because it was God his Father working in him.
Again, if Jesus was not a true human being that could actually die for our sins we are in bad shape!
No sense in going over this further because you perception will remain the same and so will mine.

Yes that is true. But it is not going to be the Father who comes to earth to judge it even though the OT tells us that it will be YHWH. It is going to be the Son, and it is the Son whome we wait for.

The Father judges NO ONE but has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:22) And he (God) has GIVEN him (the Son) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. (John 5:27) I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him (God) who sent me. (John 5:30) IOW - God is the power behind the judgment, which is actually done by Jesus Christ. Thus, it is God’s judgment seat because it has His ultimate authority. However, it is Christ’s judgment seat because he does the actual judging.

If, as the scriptures tell us, we sleep in death, then we can be revived, woken up. Our soul can be returned to a body and we will live again, because our soul is what carries the essence of what we are.
1Kings 17:22 Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.
The word is 'soul' even though most translations have 'life'. The soul of the boy did not die with the death of his body and so could return to the boy.
If the soul, the essence of who he was, did not survive then God would have to make a copy of that soul and put it in the body. God could do that and the boy probably would think he was the original, same memories etc, but would be a copy only.
In fact God could do that with you or I at the moment. He could make a copy of our soul/essence and put it in a body and it would think it was you or I but would be just a copy, and you and I would be alive to know that it would be just a copy.
It all boils down to "Whoever told you that humans do not exist after the death of the body, is mistaken in their interpretation of the scriptures".
We find passages that show that the soul survives but no passages say that the soul goes out of existence.
There are passages that tell us the state of the dead, but not that the dead do not exist.
I cannot find any.

Yes, in scripture the metaphor of "sleep" is used for death.
The child was dead - the child had quit breathing - no part of him was alive. If any part of him was alive - he was not dead. The child came back to him when he was revived, when he began to breathe.

Being in unity and purpose hopefully is part of being part of the body of Christ and also with a husband and wife, and with the Father and Son also.
It is more than being in unity and purpose however.

1Cor 6:12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined4 to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

We do not become one with God, we are creatures. We taste of the Divine nature through the Spirit in us and we grow into the fullness of the man Jesus Christ.
So many spirits become one spirit with Christ and so are joined spiritually to each other in the body of Christ, which is being led by the Spirit.
And a those who have sex become one body with each other. 2 people one body.
With God it is more than one person, but one God.
Ephes 5:31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.…

If it is a mystery then it is also imo, a mystery how God can be more than one (person) but one (God).

Yep, as I said: One means one as when you look at one individual you see one person.
One can also be one in unity and purpose as in teh body of Christ being one body with many members working together in unity and purpose of reconciling people to God. One as in a husband and wife, two individuals, in unity and purpose in the running of their household and their children.

A "mystery" how God can be more than one (person) but one (God) is not a "mystery" but an absurdity. Something is either three or one, but not both.
Jesus cannot be both God and man simultaneously.

 

[amazing grace]

Yes, we all pre exist in God's foreknowledge, which is not a literal pre-existence. So we could all say that we came from heaven and came from God and shared God's glory before the foundation of the world. And that makes what Jesus said and what others said about Jesus pre existence as just something that means nothing special about Jesus and ends up just confusing people who read it with it's plain meaning.

I think I know but what is your scripture reference?
We can "say" we came from heaven, came from God and shared God's glory but actually, we came from our parents through the reproduction process. We will share in the glory promised us when we are glorified.
There is nothing that confuses critical thinking more than God who is 3 persons but one God.

Yes I suppose Jesus resurrection body was from heaven (2Cor 5:1-10) but I don't think that is what makes Jesus a life giving spirit. It is also that He came from heaven and was a life giving spirit and has gone back to that role now also, as the Son of God who was in the form of God. He is more than we are and went back to that but at the same time has the resurrection body from heaven. But as I said this resurrection body is not what made Him a life giving spirit and afaik, we also do not become spirits or life giving spirits at the resurrection.
Eph 4:9What does “He ascended” mean, except that He also descended to the lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the very One who ascended above all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.
He is different to what we will be and was in eternity but we will be like Him and don't know exactly what that will be like yet.

Talk about confusion! When was Jesus a life-giving spirit before his resurrection? Jesus has never been a "spirit" even after his resurrection. He is a life giving spirit in that he gives spiritual life in the resurrection. God has given Christ the power to raise the dead - "For as the Father (God) has life in himself, so he has given the Son also to have life in himself . . .an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out; those who have done good to resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." (John 5:21, 29, also John 6:39,40)
Yes, Jesus descended into the lower regions of the earth; his death and burial. He also ascended far above all the heavens exalted to the right hand of God. Thus he descended into the earth and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

Jesus example of humility is this. He emptied Himself and took the form of a servant, a man, and then became obedient to the death. But the first thing He did was to decide to become a servant and a man, then He did that. I find it hard to see how you can say that all this happened after He became a human when it tells us that He emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born a man.
Phil 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

If you want to believe that Jesus emptied himself of being God, of his deity ----- okay.

Nope, in order to be God qualitatively He needed to be alive, iow He was already a person.
But yes the Jews weren't expecting the real Son of God who has the same nature as God. That is the reason they wanted to stone Him on occasion. That is the reason that they saw was blasphemy and condemned Him to death.
It is Jesus, the chief cornerstone that they rejected and stumbled on and He was the rock of offense, they were offended as whom He said He was. We can see a human Messiah but can also see a divine Messiah in the OT.

The Jews were expecting a conquering Messiah to come and deliver Israel not a suffering servant Messiah - that is why they did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. And they sure weren't expecting God Himself to come in the flesh.
Yep, "therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’"

If the Divine Son, the Word who had to be alive, became a man then He can be the Lamb and shed blood, and at the death of His body, His soul lived on and was not dead (Matt 10:28) That is just like the rest of us, and does not mean that our souls are immortal.
And it is intresting that Jesus did not claim to be God, but to be the Son of God who came from heaven, from His Father. This is the Son of God John wants us to believe in and through Him have eternal life.
The Son who is in His Father and His Father is in Him and is one with His Father (in more ways that unity and harmony.)
He did not need to be baptised for the forgiveness of sins by John true but said that He would do it anyway. He was a man, living as a man, and needed the Holy Spirit to preach and do miracles etc and that is what He got.
He was Lord and Christ from His birth (Luke 2:11)

The logos, the word became flesh - God did NOT.

Jesus Christ shed his blood for the remission of sins. Jesus Christ was crucified and died and was dead for three days and three nights. God raised him from the dead, not abandoning His soul to Hades (the grave, the place of the dead), or letting His Holy One see corruption. (Acts 2) Again, God cannot die - He is immortal.

Correct, Jesus NEVER claimed to be God (that in itself should tell us something!) John's Jesus, the Son of God, was totally dependent upon God his Father - God is dependent on no one. Jesus told us that his Father was the only true God and Jesus said he was going to his Father and our Father, his God and our God.

Correct, Jesus needed to be baptized to receive Holy Spirit, aka the Spirit of God and God gave the spirit without measure ( gives - didomi in the present tense, active voice, a continuous giving) to him to empower Jesus His Son to live a sinless life. God at work in and through His Son.
Jesus was recognized by the angel of the Lord as "Christ the Lord" at his birth but God "made" him both Lord and Christ after his death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 2)

 

[Soapy]

I don't want you to feel guilty about my irreverence. But it is up to you. And really you aren't forcing me to be anything.

Oh, so you are being irreverent of your own free Will?

Each time I post a truth to you, you CHOOSE to reply with deceitful, deceptive, irreverent responses?

And you feel comfortable doing that?

You don’t fear GOD whom you are ’drawing down’ into creation, Jesus Christ whom you are ‘raising up’ to the throne of God, and grieving the Spirit of God?

 

[Brian2]

When I take into consideration what God told Moses - I believe that when Moses spoke to God "face to face", it just means that Moses was in the presence of God.

As he was at the burning bush where the ground was holy and YHWH spoke from the bush.

So, you equate being good as sinless? I don't.

You no doubt see the Father as having a goodness that is better than anything that Jesus has/had.
I see Jesus as being as good as any man could be and as being identical in nature to His Father, iow as good as His Father.

The Father judges NO ONE but has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:22) And he (God) has GIVEN him (the Son) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. (John 5:27) I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him (God) who sent me. (John 5:30) IOW - God is the power behind the judgment, which is actually done by Jesus Christ. Thus, it is God’s judgment seat because it has His ultimate authority. However, it is Christ’s judgment seat because he does the actual judging.

It is Jesus who is coming to earth to judge in the NT.
It is YHWH who is coming to earth to judge in the OT.
If only Jesus is coming to judge, that means that YHWH who is coming to judge is Jesus who is coming to judge.
If the presence of YHWH is in Jesus then Jesus can be identified as YHWH and speak as if He is YHWH,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just like the Angel of YHWH and Angel of His Presence in the OT.
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
John 20:28 "My Lord and my God"

Yes, in scripture the metaphor of "sleep" is used for death.
The child was dead - the child had quit breathing - no part of him was alive. If any part of him was alive - he was not dead. The child came back to him when he was revived, when he began to breathe.

The child came back to life when his soul came back to his body. (the soul that is not killed at the death of the body).
Why do I bother giving Bible quotes when you do not believe them. You think that the soul is killed when the body is killed.

Yep, as I said: One means one as when you look at one individual you see one person.
One can also be one in unity and purpose as in teh body of Christ being one body with many members working together in unity and purpose of reconciling people to God. One as in a husband and wife, two individuals, in unity and purpose in the running of their household and their children.

During sex we can see 2 people but one flesh.
In the body of Christ there is one body and many members joined in spirit because we all share the same Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit.

A "mystery" how God can be more than one (person) but one (God) is not a "mystery" but an absurdity. Something is either three or one, but not both.
Jesus cannot be both God and man simultaneously.

A rope can be one rope with many fibres.

 

[Brian2]

Correct, Jesus needed to be baptized to receive Holy Spirit, aka the Spirit of God and God gave the spirit without measure ( gives - didomi in the present tense, active voice, a continuous giving) to him to empower Jesus His Son to live a sinless life. God at work in and through His Son.

So in your theology Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure so that Jesus would not sin. God at work in and through His Son.
So why say that Jesus was just a man like the first Adam? who did not have the Spirit of God without measure etc.
In my theology Jesus was a man who resisted temptation on His own merits.

Jesus was recognized by the angel of the Lord as "Christ the Lord" at his birth but God "made" him both Lord and Christ after his death, resurrection and ascension. (Acts 2)

Yes Jesus is identified as Lord and Christ at His birth and when it says that God made him both Lord and Christ, it means that through the resurrection God confirmed who Jesus was all along, Lord and Christ.
I don't think you should use Acts 2:36 to show that Luke 2:11 is untrue.

 

[Soapy]

What gets exhausting in this type of discussion is the repetition. I read the scriptures you quoted in your previous post. The difficulty comes from what God told Moses when Moses asked to see his glory and told him "'But, he said, 'you cannot see my face, for man shall not see my face and live.'" So, did Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders of Israel actually SEE thr God of Israel or His glory in the cloud or did God lie to Moses or did God contradict Himself?

So if someone is good they are God or at least equivalent to God? Jesus was good as well as others are good but God is the ultimate good and no one is as good as God Himself.

I apologize but no, I did not read them although NOW I can say that I have. And after reading each of them I am wondering why? I agree that God is the Almighty and that there is no one who can be compared to His aweome greatness.

Nope, Yahweh is going to judge the earth THROUGH His Son, His Christ His anointed King because He has GIVEN that authority to His Son, His Christ, His anointed king.

And I gave you what I believed Jesus was teaching. I believe God and His Christ are very capable of knowing us and reviving our "dry bones/dust" and giving us life in the resurrection. That revived resurrected person will be judged righteous and given eternal life or judged unrighteous and their body/soul destroyed in the second death.

One means one as when you look at one individual you see one person.
One can also be one in unity and purpose as in the body of Christ being one body with many members working together in unity and purpose of reconciling people to God. One as in a husband and wife, two individuals, in unity and purpose in the running of their household and raising their children.

You can directly replace ‘Soul’ with ’Person’ because the first is an ancient word for the second… language-wise, just as Messiah is a directly substitution for ‘Christ’ by different languages (Hebrew and Greek/English).

Brian2 is just messing with you and his explanation of ‘Soul’, read it again. You will see it makes little to no sense except that the soul does not die at death … of course it doesn’t because the SPIRIT is what is not dead.

A Soul, a Person,,, their Spirit rests with God even though the body decays. Brian2 did not refer to the non-dead spirit resting with God … he deliberately didn’t because it would screw up his already screwed up thinking on the matter.

Thank you for posting the truth - it helps me also!

 

[Soapy]

The child came back to life when his soul came back to his body. (the soul that is not killed at the death of the body).
Why do I bother giving Bible quotes when you do not believe them. You think that the soul is killed when the body is killed.

The SPIRIT was put back into the child - not the Soul:

• The Spirit was blown into the body of the child and the child came back to be a LIVING SOUL. Before the soul was put back in the body, the Soul was a non-living - an inert soul

You have been told enough times that the Soul is not ‘Killed’ when the body is killed. Yet you keep repeating it as if you never heard it before.

The Soul is THE PERSON. As long as the person’s SPIRIT is not DESTROYED the person is an existing Soul.

The body is just a vessel for the Spirit. Together these two parts are the SOUL. The Spirit can only be destroyed (that is meaning ‘Utterly removed from remembrance’). And that only happens to the wicked at the end of time by Jesus Christ. When the Soul is destroyed it means BOTH the body and the Spirit are destroyed.

 

[Soapy]

So in your theology Jesus had the Spirit of God without measure so that Jesus would not sin. God at work in and through His Son.
So why say that Jesus was just a man like the first Adam? who did not have the Spirit of God without measure etc.
In my theology Jesus was a man who resisted temptation on His own merits.



Yes Jesus is identified as Lord and Christ at His birth and when it says that God made him both Lord and Christ, it means that through the resurrection God confirmed who Jesus was all along, Lord and Christ.
I don't think you should use Acts 2:36 to show that Luke 2:11 is untrue.

God made Jesus to be Christ after he was raised up?

What does ‘Christ’ mean… and when did the event that made him so occur? See Acts 10:37-38.

 

[Brian2]

God made Jesus to be Christ after he was raised up?

What does ‘Christ’ mean… and when did the event that madd him so occur? See Acts 10:37-38.

That does not say that Jesus became the Christ at His baptism. It says nothing about that. It is saying that Jesus earthly ministry started then. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit then and with power to do His ministry,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but He was the Lord and Christ at His birth (Luke 2:11)
That means that He was anointed before that to be the Christ.

 

[Soapy]

It is speaking about what the first Adam became and what the last Adam was. We, in our earthly body, take after the first Adam and we in our resurrection take after the last Adam, who came from heaven and was a life giving spirit there.

No, Brian2. God granted Jesus to have life in him… that is a future event at the end of time when Jesus raises the dead at the resurrections.

Tell me: What do you understand about these two sentences:

• ‘Saul killed 1000 men; David, 10,000 men
• ‘Adam became a living spirit; Jesus Christ, a life giving Spirit

 

[Soapy]

That does not say that Jesus became the Christ at His baptism. It says nothing about that. It is saying that Jesus earthly ministry started then. He was anointed with the Holy Spirit then and with power to do His ministry,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but He was the Lord and Christ at His birth (Luke 2:11)
That means that He was anointed before that to be the Christ.

Brian2:

1. how is an anointing carried out?
2. Give another example of an anointing in the Scriptures.
3. Who anointed Jesus at his birth?
4. What exactly does Acts 10:37-38 say about Jesus’ anointing?

 

[Brian2]

The SPIRIT was put back into the child - not the Soul:

• The Spirit was blown into the body of the child and the child came back to be a LIVING SOUL. Before the soul was put back in the body, the Soul was a non-living - an inert soul

You have been told enough times that the Soul is not ‘Killed’ when the body is killed. Yet you keep repeating it as if you never heard it before.

You have just contradicted yourself. You just said that the soul was not living when the boy died and then you went on to say that the soul is not killed when the body is killed.
Not only that, but you are misrepresenting what I have told you since I am the one who has been pointing to Jesus words at Matt 10:28 as meaning that the soul does not die when the body dies.