Jesus - First Born?

[Soapy]

Well I guess humans are made from dust and when that dust is animated it is a living soul, so when the life has left that living soul, the body remains and it is called a dead soul.

Haven’t you gotten things backwards????

When God proposes to create Adam, a man, did he FIRST CREATE the body …. And then THINK ABOUT the Spirit that would animate it???

No, Brian2, the SPIRIT comes first in thought… the Spirit is what is important, not the flesh.

Think about designing any system, any device… Do you design the ‘body’ of the thing AND THEN THINK HOW IT IS TO BE FUNCTIONED?

No! You think about what the FUNCTION (the Spirit) is to do and THEN build a structure (the ‘Body’) to accommodate it.

The fact that the scriptures says that God created the body of Adam and THEN put the Spirit into it to animate it does not change the fact that God proposed the Spirit first: ‘Let us create man in our image’… So the Spirit of Adam was created in God (it’s not a physical creation! God created by his thought and his word), the body was then made, and then the Spirit was put into it to animate the inert body.

BUT of course the body is not the only thing that comprises the soul. There is the spiritual part also, the part that leaves the body at its death. This part, the life, cannot be called dead really when it is the life of the body.

Why are you reluctant to say ‘Spirit’. You have already CORRECTLY STATED:

• ‘The Soul is the Spirit and body’

IMO the soul is the totality of a person, whether the body is alive or not.

Yes, absolutely and I agree… no need to restate it. I know ‘living body’ can be an everyday common term but as a debate topic or in a debate ‘body is alive’ needs to be explained (of best avoided!!) as ‘ENSPIRITED’ (with a Spirit in it), just in case anyone should think the body can be ‘alive’ by its own ability! Better to say, ‘whether fallen to decay or fully intact’.

When alive the soul includes the body.
When the body dies, the soul is the other spiritual parts of a person that have left the body.

‘OTHER SPIRITUAL PARTS’. Did you mean ‘PART’? Ipso facto, the Spirit!!

If a person is resurrected into a body again, the soul again includes a body,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and actually a human is not complete without a body.

‘WHEN’ a Person…. YESSSSS…. When a Soul…. YESSSSS…. is resurrected (All Souls (all People (plural of Person) who have died) will be resurrected and then judged….!)

Yes, a human is not complete without a body exactly because God did not create his image as man to have the Spirit dormant, inert, sleeping, uncommunicative, latent, …. He created man to be active, energetic, acting as rulers over the animal kingdom - who are not made in His image.

Yes that's the point, we don't earn our salvation through our works, we show our salvation through our works.
All those in Christ through faith are the elect.
How do you define the elect?

I’m not sure what you are saying here… seems like a totally different topic. Were you responding to some other person, some other soul in this forum?

But to your previous statement: Just call yourself a Christian and you are saved????
In the UK the predominant CLAIMED belief is ‘Christian’… yet I would say as much as 75% of such souls do not have evidential knowledge of ‘Christianity’… it is just a ‘safe’ claim without conviction!!!

The Elect… These are a special group of souls / people who (scripture says) have been ‘Chosen from before creation….’!) and also chosen from subsequent lives throughout the history of mankind, who hold to the glory of the only true God and latterly also to Jesus Christ and who carry the doctrine of both (of Jesus Christ as consequence of God teaching Jesus and empowering him to spread the word about God:

• ‘As I hear [from God] so I speak… as I see [from God] so also I do’… (paraphrased)
• ‘For He [God] has ANOINTED ME [Jesus Christ] to bring the good news …’

These people of God are not prominent in the world. They don’t STAND OUT in the crowded world of preaching, they don’t ‘Belong’ to any established ‘Earthly’ Church so as for anyone to say, ‘Go to this church of that church…’ Jesus showed by the example of the ‘Seven churches of Asia Minor’ that no established earthly church teaches the FULL TRUTH… yes, many are ‘close’ but ultimately fail. The TRUE CHURCH is not in an earthly structure (in a temple or on the mountain!) but in oneself: In Spirit and in Truth!!!

Don’t chase me here, but JW (I’m not a JW, just saying!) badly and very wrongfully declared themselves as THE ELECT and claimed the Revelational number of 144,000 members of the Elect of God… something quickly destroyed after more than 144,000 JW members were made so!! …and the world didn’t end in 1944 as they declared!!!

So NO ONE PERSON can point to another person and say: ‘He is one of the elect’… In fact, so humble are these ELECT that they would never glorify themselves nor allow anyone to glorify them.

 

[Brian2]

Haven’t you gotten things backwards????

When God proposes to create Adam, a man, did he FIRST CREATE the body …. And then THINK ABOUT the Spirit that would animate it???

No, Brian2, the SPIRIT comes first in thought… the Spirit is what is important, not the flesh.

Think about designing any system, any device… Do you design the ‘body’ of the thing AND THEN THINK HOW IT IS TO BE FUNCTIONED?

No! You think about what the FUNCTION (the Spirit) is to do and THEN build a structure (the ‘Body’) to accommodate it.

The fact that the scriptures says that God created the body of Adam and THEN put the Spirit into it to animate it does not change the fact that God proposed the Spirit first: ‘Let us create man in our image’… So the Spirit of Adam was created in God (it’s not a physical creation! God created by his thought and his word), the body was then made, and then the Spirit was put into it to animate the inert body.

Personally I don't think the spirit of man was created first. I see the initial spirit of a person as being life force from the breathe of God.
Zechariah 12:1 This is the burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:

To me this means that the life force from God was set up inside the body, it was joined to the body in various ways so that it supplied life to the body and operated as the main controlling part of a human. It is the highest part of a person and is there to oversee things and to lead the way.
This however was not what happened and because of A@E, our carnal mind and body became the things that humans followed more than their spirit. So God ended communion with our spirit and it's influence waned.
Jesus has brought back the supremacy of the spirit with the New Creation and our spirits have been born again through His Holy Spirit in us. We are spiritually joined to Jesus (1Cor 6:17) with our spirit and His Spirit being joined. We have the Spirit of adoption and are adopted children of God.
At the resurrection our bodies also are adopted.
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

‘OTHER SPIRITUAL PARTS’. Did you mean ‘PART’? Ipso facto, the Spirit!!

I suppose I did, but I see the spirit (life force) as going to God at death of the body and the soul (the totality/essence of the person after the death of the body) as going to hades with those who are not in Christ, but with those who are in Christ I imagine the spirit and soul remain the one thing and it goes to be with the Lord.
Our spirit has been united to the Lord and we are one spirit with Him. That Spirit of Christ in us is not going to die and our spirit is united to the Spirit.

‘WHEN’ a Person…. YESSSSS…. When a Soul…. YESSSSS…. is resurrected (All Souls (all People (plural of Person) who have died) will be resurrected and then judged….!)

Yes, a human is not complete without a body exactly because God did not create his image as man to have the Spirit dormant, inert, sleeping, uncommunicative, latent, …. He created man to be active, energetic, acting as rulers over the animal kingdom - who are not made in His image.

Yes,,,,,,,WHEN.

I’m not sure what you are saying here… seems like a totally different topic. Were you responding to some other person, some other soul in this forum?

But to your previous statement: Just call yourself a Christian and you are saved????
In the UK the predominant CLAIMED belief is ‘Christian’… yet I would say as much as 75% of such souls do not have evidential knowledge of ‘Christianity’… it is just a ‘safe’ claim without conviction!!!

Well I was answering this: Wow, so easy!!! Just call yourself a Christian and you are one of the Elect….!?
This is something that you said and it is a different topic, and my answer also is on that topic.
I'm not sure about the UK and how many of those who claim to be Christians are actually Christians.

 

[amazing grace]

But Jesus Christ died … and he did not sin nor was he a descendent of Adam, through whom all mankind sinned.

That's true.

I need to amend my response . . . Jesus Christ died. Jesus Christ did not sin. Jesus was a descendent of Adam - genealogy: Luke 3 through Mary. All have sinned with the EXCEPTION of Jesus Christ.

 

[Brian2]

The Elect… These are a special group of souls / people who (scripture says) have been ‘Chosen from before creation….’!) and also chosen from subsequent lives throughout the history of mankind, who hold to the glory of the only true God and latterly also to Jesus Christ and who carry the doctrine of both (of Jesus Christ as consequence of God teaching Jesus and empowering him to spread the word about God:

• ‘As I hear [from God] so I speak… as I see [from God] so also I do’… (paraphrased)
• ‘For He [God] has ANOINTED ME [Jesus Christ] to bring the good news …’

These people of God are not prominent in the world. They don’t STAND OUT in the crowded world of preaching, they don’t ‘Belong’ to any established ‘Earthly’ Church so as for anyone to say, ‘Go to this church of that church…’ Jesus showed by the example of the ‘Seven churches of Asia Minor’ that no established earthly church teaches the FULL TRUTH… yes, many are ‘close’ but ultimately fail. The TRUE CHURCH is not in an earthly structure (in a temple or on the mountain!) but in oneself: In Spirit and in Truth!!!

Don’t chase me here, but JW (I’m not a JW, just saying!) badly and very wrongfully declared themselves as THE ELECT and claimed the Revelational number of 144,000 members of the Elect of God… something quickly destroyed after more than 144,000 JW members were made so!! …and the world didn’t end in 1944 as they declared!!!

So NO ONE PERSON can point to another person and say: ‘He is one of the elect’… In fact, so humble are these ELECT that they would never glorify themselves nor allow anyone to glorify them.

You must have made an edit while I was answering and so here is an answer to your edit.
I see the elect as all those who have the Truth in them and follow it. The Truth is Jesus, the exact image of His Father, who is Love and so it is not so much about pure doctrine as it is about loving our neighbour.
The Jews were God's chosen but only a remnant were true Jews in their faith and actions.
The elect also probably includes all those from other faiths who love God and their neighbour.
But of course I am not the one who can judge and I suppose there may be a certain part of the saved, those in the Kingdom, who stand our above the others.

 

[Soapy]

Okay.

Yes, the dead in Christ are those who have died believing in Christ.
Yes, "fallen asleep" or "sleep" is a metaphor for death.
Yes, the dead are sleeping in the grave, no longer conscious. When I lay down to sleep at night (and yes, I am aware that there are different stages of sleep) but I am talking about the state of deep sleep, I know nothing. I have no concept of time. It's the same in death, I am laid in the grave and my next waking thought or consciousness is being in the presence of God and Christ at the resurrection.
The dead are dead, i.e. lifeless.

Again, the body is lifeless therefore no more life force, i.e. soul, the soul that gives life to the body is gone which results in a dead body. Yes, resting and at peace in the grace awaiting the resurrection.

The SOUL does not GIVE LIFE???. How are you saying such nonsense!

No! It is THE SPIRIT that gives life…

That’s why your definition is WRONG!!!

God blew the SPIRIT into the BODY… and ‘together’ the Spirit and body is a LIVING SOUL. But the body without the Spirit is not a ‘DEAD SOUL’… there is no such thing as a ‘Dead Soul’, since being ‘Dead’ would first mean having previously been alive! And the Soul was not previously ALIVE so as to be dead AND THEN ALIVENED AGAIN (we are talking about Adam, here!). The STATE BEFORE Adam’s body was Enlivened is ‘NON-LIVING’. That DOES NOT MEAN ‘DEAD’!!! Stop thinking BINARY… !!!!
The Spirit of Adam was WITH GOD in thought but had not yet been put into the lifeless body…

I ask you: ‘Is the egg in a woman considered “DEAD” and then is ‘Made alive by the SPIRIT which is the Sperm?’

Or would you say that the egg is non-living and then was made living…???

You keep thinking in pure binary: ‘not Living’ must mean ‘Dead’ but that is not so… There most certainly is another state: ‘Non-Living’ is neither DEAD nor Alive!!

In the case of the egg in a woman, the egg is non-living. It is not dead but is not alive either. It becomes ‘Dead’ after it is flushed out WITHOUT being ‘ENSPIRITED’ by the sperm. While it is still in the uterus it is ‘Capable of being inspirited’… capable of being ‘Enlivened’.

The body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Yes, that is what scriptures tells us. And we say that in that state if is Alive… but in sleep state of non consciousness. It cannot interact, communicate, act, since it can only do so in the world through the mechanism of a BODY… which, has decayed to dust…. Until God creates a new body or reconstitutes the old one and PUTS THE SPIRIT back into that body!

As for the "spirit returns to God who gave it" - what meaning do you apply here? the spirit of man? the breath of man? the gift of holy spirit which was given to man when they repented and were baptized? ETC.

You are stressing the point here! There is only ONE SPIRIT of man and no one has spoken of any other spirit from the beginning of this part of the debate!!! And, the Spirit of man IS the Breathe of man… The Spirit is ‘The Breathe’… I’ve been saying time after time after time so if you are still not understanding then it can only be because you are refusing to believe the truth!! You are still trying to hold to your wrongful belief and that has led to your confusion when the truth is presented to you! Even Brian2 has shown you are wrong and I agree with him (Whooweee!!’):

• The SOUL is ‘Spirit and Body’

A concept so simple that it flummox the mind as to how you could think anything other!!!
‘A SOUL’ is just a DIFFERENT WORD (by language) for ‘A PERSON’.

I have you several examples and asked you about this but you don’t appear to want to engage so that you’d understanding aligns with reality.

The Hebrews says ‘SOUL’, the GREEK/LATIN/ENGLISH says ‘PERSON’.

Do you argue about ‘MESSIAH’ and ‘CHRIST’?

I know you do not agree and we probably will not come to an agreement on this subject so we can just move on to something else. It has been interesting.

I tried to stop before, remember, but so great was the error of thinking in your argument, and with Brian2 bordering so closely (on the truth on this topic) I stepped back in to try to show you both the full truth - but though Brian2 is struggling to find ways to claim against me - and strangely, even against HIMSELF - he nevertheless still hold to : Soul is Spirit and Body… and a Soul is still a Soul even if the body is decayed… since the Spirit of the Soul is only resting with God… if is not DEAD.
It is “DEAD” TO THE WORLD… oh wow… do we not even say that about someone in a deep sleep: ‘Leave him; Let him sleep it off. He’s dead to the world after that heavy drinking session’.

 

[Soapy]

I need to amend my response . . . Jesus Christ died. Jesus Christ did not sin. Jesus was a descendent of Adam - genealogy: Luke 3 through Mary. All have sinned with the EXCEPTION of Jesus Christ.

@amazing grace, Jesus Christ died because he took the sins of the world onto himself.

He was ‘Son of Adam’ by Genealogy…
He was ‘Son of David’ by genealogy…
He was Son of Abraham by genealogy…

But remember that he was a type of Melkizedek with no knowledge of his parentage. He had NO HUMAN PARENTAGE… GOD created him in the same manner as He created the first man, Adam.
That is why Jesus Christ is called, ‘The SECOND ADAM’ and ‘THE LAST ADAM’.

Why was there such a strong reference to ‘the first Adam’. Was it that the first Adam was created SINLESS by means of the Spirit of God…. And the second Adam was created in the SAME WAY… when God ‘blew the Breathe of life into the non-living egg (the body of a potential child before fertilisation) of the Virgin Mary’?

 

[Soapy]

Personally I don't think the spirit of man was created first. I see the initial spirit of a person as being life force from the breathe of God.
Zechariah 12:1 This is the burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD, who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth, who forms the spirit of man within him:

To me this means that the life force from God was set up inside the body, it was joined to the body in various ways so that it supplied life to the body and operated as the main controlling part of a human. It is the highest part of a person and is there to oversee things and to lead the way.
This however was not what happened and because of A@E, our carnal mind and body became the things that humans followed more than their spirit. So God ended communion with our spirit and it's influence waned.
Jesus has brought back the supremacy of the spirit with the New Creation and our spirits have been born again through His Holy Spirit in us. We are spiritually joined to Jesus (1Cor 6:17) with our spirit and His Spirit being joined. We have the Spirit of adoption and are adopted children of God.
At the resurrection our bodies also are adopted.
Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.



I suppose I did, but I see the spirit (life force) as going to God at death of the body and the soul (the totality/essence of the person after the death of the body) as going to hades with those who are not in Christ, but with those who are in Christ I imagine the spirit and soul remain the one thing and it goes to be with the Lord.
Our spirit has been united to the Lord and we are one spirit with Him. That Spirit of Christ in us is not going to die and our spirit is united to the Spirit.



Yes,,,,,,,WHEN.



Well I was answering this: Wow, so easy!!! Just call yourself a Christian and you are one of the Elect….!?
This is something that you said and it is a different topic, and my answer also is on that topic.
I'm not sure about the UK and how many of those who claim to be Christians are actually Christians.

It’s sad that I have come to the end of this debate thread. I saw you (despite our differences elsewhere) as being in tune with the truth but always having a fringe denial and even a jocular presence when you see the truth but don’t wish to admit it… it’s not a good way and only frustrates the truth speaker - Though it is not my truth but God’s. I need to learn not to take it to heart and be ‘aggressively responsive’ but always remember whom I represent!

 

[amazing grace]

The SOUL does not GIVE LIFE???. How are you saying such nonsense!

No! It is THE SPIRIT that gives life…

That’s why your definition is WRONG!!!

God blew the SPIRIT into the BODY… and ‘together’ the Spirit and body is a LIVING SOUL. But the body without the Spirit is not a ‘DEAD SOUL’… there is no such thing as a ‘Dead Soul’, since being ‘Dead’ would first mean having previously been alive! And the Soul was not previously ALIVE so as to be dead AND THEN ALIVENED AGAIN (we are talking about Adam, here!). The STATE BEFORE Adam’s body was Enlivened is ‘NON-LIVING’. That DOES NOT MEAN ‘DEAD’!!! Stop thinking BINARY… !!!!
The Spirit of Adam was WITH GOD in thought but had not yet been put into the lifeless body…

I don't believe I ever said Adam was DEAD or non-living from Gen 2:7. What I said is in Post #516. Although the word "spirit" is not directly used in Gen. 2:7 it is within the definition for the breath of life (nesama: breath, spirit; hay: life, sustenance) and Adam became a living soul (nephesh - the manifestation of life; the sign of life through that "breath") which is why scripture refers to the complete man as body and soul and spirit - the whole of a person. When the body no longer has breath, the whole being is dead. According to scripture a "dead person (nephesh)", a "dead body (nephesh)" is a "dead soul" (nephesh). “Whoever touches the dead body (nephesh - soul) of any person shall be unclean seven days." [Num. 19:11] "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." [James 2:26] - the body without evidence of breath is dead just as faith without evidence, manifested in someone's life is dead.
I do not believe my definition is wrong and as shown above I will include - soul and spirit, both relating to breath, breathe, life, that which gives life to the body and without either one - the body is dead which is a dead soul (nephesh).
As I said we will just have to agree to disagree.

I ask you: ‘Is the egg in a woman considered “DEAD” and then is ‘Made alive by the SPIRIT which is the Sperm?’

Or would you say that the egg is non-living and then was made living…???

You keep thinking in pure binary: ‘not Living’ must mean ‘Dead’ but that is not so… There most certainly is another state: ‘Non-Living’ is neither DEAD nor Alive!!

In the case of the egg in a woman, the egg is non-living. It is not dead but is not alive either. It becomes ‘Dead’ after it is flushed out WITHOUT being ‘ENSPIRITED’ by the sperm. While it is still in the uterus it is ‘Capable of being inspirited’… capable of being ‘Enlivened’.

The egg is not "non-living" - it is a living cell. If there is no sperm to unite with the egg - it is flushed out and is dead.
"For the life (nephesh - soul) of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given if for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls (nephesh), for it is the blood that makes atonement for life (nephesh). [Lev. 17:11]

Yes, that is what scriptures tells us. And we say that in that state if is Alive… but in sleep state of non consciousness. It cannot interact, communicate, act, since it can only do so in the world through the mechanism of a BODY… which, has decayed to dust…. Until God creates a new body or reconstitutes the old one and PUTS THE SPIRIT back into that body!

The spirit that animates the dead body comes from God - prophecy concerning Israel and how God will raise them from the dead, speaking of the resurrection.
'Behold, I will cause breath (ruach - spirit) to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath (ruach - spirit) in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am Yahweh." . . . Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people . . . And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live . . . [Ezekiel 37:5, 6, 12, 14] Of course we learn in the NT that this will be done through His Son, Jesus Christ - "For as the Father has life in himself he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. . . all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. [John 5:26, 28]

You are stressing the point here! There is only ONE SPIRIT of man and no one has spoken of any other spirit from the beginning of this part of the debate!!! And, the Spirit of man IS the Breathe of man… The Spirit is ‘The Breathe’… I’ve been saying time after time after time so if you are still not understanding then it can only be because you are refusing to believe the truth!! You are still trying to hold to your wrongful belief and that has led to your confusion when the truth is presented to you! Even Brian2 has shown you are wrong and I agree with him (Whooweee!!’):

• The SOUL is ‘Spirit and Body’

A concept so simple that it flummox the mind as to how you could think anything other!!!
‘A SOUL’ is just a DIFFERENT WORD (by language) for ‘A PERSON’.

I have you several examples and asked you about this but you don’t appear to want to engage so that you’d understanding aligns with reality.

The Hebrews says ‘SOUL’, the GREEK/LATIN/ENGLISH says ‘PERSON’.

Do you argue about ‘MESSIAH’ and ‘CHRIST’?

It is both the spirit and soul that gives life to the body. [pnuema: spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated; the rational spirit, i.e. the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides, the soul; wind, breath of nostrils or mouth - psuche: soul - breath, the breath of life; that in which there is life, i.e. a living being, a living soul; the seat of the feelings, desires, affections.]
Do you not see that BOTH give life to the body? That is why man consists of body and soul and spirit - [1 Thess. 5:23] and a dead body would be one without either spirit or soul - that which gives life to the body - BREATH.

Man has a spirit called the "spirit of man" [1 Cor. 2:11 "For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." clearly contrasting man's spirit and the Spirit of God] and when man is born again, he receives the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ via the gift of holy spirit.

I tried to stop before, remember, but so great was the error of thinking in your argument, and with Brian2 bordering so closely (on the truth on this topic) I stepped back in to try to show you both the full truth - but though Brian2 is struggling to find ways to claim against me - and strangely, even against HIMSELF - he nevertheless still hold to : Soul is Spirit and Body… and a Soul is still a Soul even if the body is decayed… since the Spirit of the Soul is only resting with God… if is not DEAD.
It is “DEAD” TO THE WORLD… oh wow… do we not even say that about someone in a deep sleep: ‘Leave him; Let him sleep it off. He’s dead to the world after that heavy drinking session’.

As I have said we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[amazing grace]

@amazing grace, Jesus Christ died because he took the sins of the world onto himself.

He was ‘Son of Adam’ by Genealogy…
He was ‘Son of David’ by genealogy…
He was Son of Abraham by genealogy…

But remember that he was a type of Melkizedek with no knowledge of his parentage. He had NO HUMAN PARENTAGE… GOD created him in the same manner as He created the first man, Adam.
That is why Jesus Christ is called, ‘The SECOND ADAM’ and ‘THE LAST ADAM’.

Why was there such a strong reference to ‘the first Adam’. Was it that the first Adam was created SINLESS by means of the Spirit of God…. And the second Adam was created in the SAME WAY… when God ‘blew the Breathe of life into the non-living egg (the body of a potential child before fertilisation) of the Virgin Mary’?

Yes, I know why Jesus died.

NO KNOWLEDGE of his parentage!!!!! God formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed life into him!!!!!
Adam was a type of the one to come, i.e. a human being.
The first Adam WAS created sinless because sin and death through sin did not enter the world until he sinned.
The last Adam was created sinless in the womb of Mary with her egg, a living cell by His power. Jesus grew and developed within the womb of his mother until he took his first breath at birth as all human beings - the difference being he was created in the womb by God.

 

[Soapy]

Yes, I know why Jesus died.

NO KNOWLEDGE of his parentage!!!!! God formed him from the dust of the ground and breathed life into him!!!!!
Adam was a type of the one to come, i.e. a human being.

I would be careful here as if is not an absolute what ‘A type of the one to come’ means:

• Adam became a ‘type of Satan’ (an Opposer! A defiant one against God!)

Adam was already a Human Being from the inception of his being made a Living Soul.

The first Adam WAS created sinless because sin and death through sin did not enter the world until he sinned.

Yes. This is what we agree on.

The last Adam was created sinless in the womb of Mary with her egg, a living cell by His power.

I see elsewhere that you say the same error that an egg is LIVING while it is in the Filopian tube. You change the context by stating the egg was in the WOMB.

For sure, if the egg gets fertilised it then BECOMES AN ACTIVE DIVIDING CELL and travels to the WOMB. But if it has not been fertilised it never starts dividing and NEVER REACHES the Womb!!!

Jesus grew and developed within the womb of his mother until he took his first breath at birth as all human beings - the difference being he was created in the womb by God.

That part is not part of the discussion - we don’t disagree that Jesus was developed as all foetus develop in the womb of a woman.

The difference is in HOW THE EGG WAS MADE TO BE A LIVING EGG… Scriptures says it was by ‘The overshadowing of the Spirit of God’ - which simply means ‘By the intervention of God’ and not by the sinful ‘sperm’ of Man.

THEREFORE it is a fertilisation from a PURE sinless source tantamount to God breathing the Breathe of life into the unliving body of Adam.

 

[amazing grace]

I would be careful here as if is not an absolute what ‘A type of the one to come’ means:

• Adam became a ‘type of Satan’ (an Opposer! A defiant one against God!)

Adam was already a Human Being from the inception of his being made a Living Soul.

Adam was a type of the one to come: Romans 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type (typos - the pattern or model after which a thing is made) of the one who was to come. (a human being) Romans 5 is the comparison of one man, Adam and another man, Jesus.
I'm still wondering about Jesus having no knowledge of his parentage.

Yes. This is what we agree on.

I see elsewhere that you say the same error that an egg is LIVING while it is in the Filopian tube. You change the context by stating the egg was in the WOMB.

For sure, if the egg gets fertilised it then BECOMES AN ACTIVE DIVIDING CELL and travels to the WOMB. But if it has not been fertilised it never starts dividing and NEVER REACHES the Womb!!!

The ovum is a living cell released once a month from the ovaries. It travels down the fallopian tubes and into the uterus (womb). If that ovum is fertilized it attaches to the wall of the uterus (womb) and starts developing into a new organism - if that ovum is not fertilized it is released with the menstrual flow and it dies.
By the way, I am a "she" and I understand fully how this works.

That part is not part of the discussion - we don’t disagree that Jesus was developed as all foetus develop in the womb of a woman.

The difference is in HOW THE EGG WAS MADE TO BE A LIVING EGG… Scriptures says it was by ‘The overshadowing of the Spirit of God’ - which simply means ‘By the intervention of God’ and not by the sinful ‘sperm’ of Man.

THEREFORE it is a fertilisation from a PURE sinless source tantamount to God breathing the Breathe of life into the unliving body of Adam.

I never said that Jesus was created "by the sinful 'sperm' of man".
Exactly what I said: "The Holy Spirit (God) will come upon you and the power of the Most High (God) will overshadow you; therefore, the child to be born will be called holy----the Son of God" only I condensed it into "The last Adam was created sinless in the womb of Mary with her egg, a living cell by His power.
The fertilization occurred by the power of the Most High. I don't think it is tantamount to God breathing into Adam - Adam was created as a man, a fully developed man - Jesus Christ was created in the womb of Mary. Although both were created, I think there is a difference here.
The thing is we are really close in our understanding.

 

[Brian2]

I'm still wondering about Jesus having no knowledge of his parentage.

Certainly at the age of 12 Jesus knew about God being His Father when He remained in the Temple discussing things with the learned teachers.
At 12 years old Jesus was able to discuss the scriptures with them as if He knew them well.

 

[Brian2]

It’s sad that I have come to the end of this debate thread. I saw you (despite our differences elsewhere) as being in tune with the truth but always having a fringe denial and even a jocular presence when you see the truth but don’t wish to admit it… it’s not a good way and only frustrates the truth speaker - Though it is not my truth but God’s. I need to learn not to take it to heart and be ‘aggressively responsive’ but always remember whom I represent!

Yes I also need to learn that, among other things.

 

[Brian2]

But remember that he was a type of Melkizedek with no knowledge of his parentage. He had NO HUMAN PARENTAGE… GOD created him in the same manner as He created the first man, Adam.
That is why Jesus Christ is called, ‘The SECOND ADAM’ and ‘THE LAST ADAM’.

In both cases the body was formed (in Jesus case, a tiny undeveloped body) and life was life was put in the body (in Jesus case the life was not just the generic life force put into Adam, but was the life force that was that of the uncreated, unbegotten Son of God from His Father in heaven--the life force of a person, the essence of that person)
The first Adam became a living soul.
The second Adam was a life giving spirit.

Why was there such a strong reference to ‘the first Adam’. Was it that the first Adam was created SINLESS by means of the Spirit of God…. And the second Adam was created in the SAME WAY… when God ‘blew the Breathe of life into the non-living egg (the body of a potential child before fertilisation) of the Virgin Mary’?

The egg was living and had life from Mary in it.
All babies are sinless of course, but all have a potential for sin.

 

[Brian2]

The judgment of death, i.e. physical death was passed on to all men, because all have sinned even to those who sinned without the law DIED "physically". "for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given" - before the law showed them what sin was - but sin is not counted where there is no law YET death reigned from Adam to Moses (those before the law was given) . . . YET men died PHYSICALLY.

They died physically, they were prone to sin and all sinned apart from the law and God could not allow them to live forever in that state, so He stopped their access to the tree of life so they would not live forever, physically.

Yes, Adam and Eve lost their intimate relationship with God. God clothed them with animal skins to "cover their sin". So, could we relate that to a spiritual death . . . I don't want to speculate . . . I will have to say that I am not sure.
Did Adam and Eve have "the inner man"; i.e. new birth?

I would say that A and E did lose their intimate communion with God, who used to walk in the garden and talk with them.
They certainly lost that when they sinned. They also lost access to the tree of life and so could not live forever and would die, physically.
The physical part of death was a part that was added later even though it was a result of their sin.
The spiritual death, losing relationship with God, happened as a direct result of their sin and happened on the same day that they sinned.

Gen 2:16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Certainly reading Gen 2:16,17 at face value, the spiritual death had to be what was spoken of even if we can probably avoid that by interpreting "in that day" in another way. But it is good to take things at face value if that is possible and works imo even if the physical death came later and was a part of the judgement on A and E.

I don't see A and E as having the new birth, which came with Jesus. Their spirits were not joined with the Spirit of Christ.
They did have their inner man however imo since that is something that all people have.

From this site: What is the inner man? | GotQuestions.org
Paul uses the term inner man several times in his epistles (2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16). Romans 7:22–23 says, “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body.” The “inner man” is another way of describing the spiritual aspect of a person. The “outer man,” by contrast, would be the visible, external aspect of a person.

This is an interesting article to read all the way through.

We have been adopted and are God's children now (Rom. 8:15, Eph. 1:5, 1 John 3:2) just not yet in full possession of all the things promised us as God's children - yes, we await the redemption our body and our being born from above at the resurrection ------
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body
. . . we shall be like him because we shall see him as he is.

We are born from above (born again) because we have the Spirit of God and are children of God.
It is the spirit that is born of the Spirit. Our spirits are united with the Lord.
From then on, in this life our inner man is being changed into the image of Christ, from glory to glory, as we kill the deeds of the flesh and renew our mind with the Truth from God.
When we are resurrected, our bodies also are adopted, redeemed, and are no longer enemies of the Spirit. Our resurrection bodies, the spiritual bodies we get, are bodies that our spirits can control, as it was meant to have been from the beginning.
But our carnal desires took control and our spirit became the part of us that was controlled more than in control.

 

[Brian2]

Consider this: in Revelation 21:4 after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How could saved believers possible enjoy the riches of eternity if they were constantly hearing burning people shouting up at them for water?!?

Since people are resurrected from hades for the final judgement, I don't see the state of those in hades as being permanent. I believe the end is either eternal life or destruction in Gehenna.
However I do believe that those who are destroyed in Gehenna go through a time of torment before they are finally destroyed. (see Rev 14:9-11)

I think that you are applying "the inner being of man" with this verse in Ephesians 3:16 "he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being (man)." This refers to the new birth, the new man, being IN Christ, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling within the believer via the gift of holy spirit.

Nevertheless the inner man is something that is just there in all humans and the Spirit works in it to change it to the image of Christ.

Why would the translators translate dead "body" from the Hebrew word "nephesh" if it didn't mean "soul"? If the body is dead and the body is considered "soul" then the "soul/body" is dead.

It means a dead person. But that does not mean that there are no other parts of that person which survive the death of the body.
Why would Jesus say that someone can kill your body but not your soul, of the body is the soul?

Do you believe that the OT prophets and believers immediately went to heaven upon their death?
Paul quotes this psalm of triumph about God ascending to Mount Zion and establishing His Temple and receiving gifts from people in Ephesians and applies it to the triumph of Christ ascending into heaven and giving gifts to people to Christ reigning from heaven over his heavenly people, the Church, and gives gifts to them so they are equipped to help him with his work on earth of reconciling people to God.
I still see no reason for the dead in Christ "those who have fallen asleep in him" to rise first if we are already in heaven and brought back with Christ. I think there is more contained within that verse and it's something that I haven't explored fully.

The going to be with the Lord happened after Jesus. He ascended and took prisoners with Him (from hades to heaven imo) But that doesn't mean they were then complete. They did not have a body.
The same with those in Christ who go to be with the Lord after their death, they are not complete and they probably are in a similar state of consciousness etc as when in Hades.
This is a reason that they need to be brought back with Jesus when He returns, so that they can be resurrected into their resurrection bodies. (1Thess 4:13-18) The whole person is redeemed. Our spirit has been reborn and adopted but our bodies also await that redemption and adoption (Romans 8:23)

 

[amazing grace]

They died physically, they were prone to sin and all sinned apart from the law and God could not allow them to live forever in that state, so He stopped their access to the tree of life so they would not live forever, physically.

They were not created "prone to sin" - everything in the garden was "good" - there was no sin or death.
Correct, God sent them out of the garden.

I would say that A and E did lose their intimate communion with God, who used to walk in the garden and talk with them.
They certainly lost that when they sinned. They also lost access to the tree of life and so could not live forever and would die, physically.
The physical part of death was a part that was added later even though it was a result of their sin.
The spiritual death, losing relationship with God, happened as a direct result of their sin and happened on the same day that they sinned.

Gen 2:16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

Certainly reading Gen 2:16,17 at face value, the spiritual death had to be what was spoken of even if we can probably avoid that by interpreting "in that day" in another way. But it is good to take things at face value if that is possible and works imo even if the physical death came later and was a part of the judgement on A and E.

Actually, all we can say is that A and E lost their intimate communion with God, but I still am not sure about a "spiritual death" occurring since it is not specifically stated. What we do know from Romans 5 is that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men". The judgment to all mankind . . .
"In that day" - can mean the same day or a period of time - we see that from Gen. 2:4 - "in that day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens" - we know that God's creating was over a period of 6 days. It was the judgment of sin and death that entered THAT DAY.

I don't see A and E as having the new birth, which came with Jesus. Their spirits were not joined with the Spirit of Christ.
They did have their inner man however imo since that is something that all people have.

From this site: What is the inner man? | GotQuestions.org
Paul uses the term inner man several times in his epistles (2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16). Romans 7:22–23 says, “For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body.” The “inner man” is another way of describing the spiritual aspect of a person. The “outer man,” by contrast, would be the visible, external aspect of a person.

This is an interesting article to read all the way through.

Yes, I can see that all men have an "inner man" - the inner part of yourself that you talk to at times, where your thoughts originate, the "real you", so to speak - as we can see from Romans 7:22,23 - "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."
In Rom 7:22-23 we learn that our mind is part of “inner self,” and although our mind delights in the law of God and wants to be obedient, there are members of our flesh body that war against our mind and bring us captive to sin (which is why we sin although we don’t want to).
2 Cor 4:16 shows us that our mind can experience a renewal every day. Paul’s body was getting older and weaker, but his “inner self” was being renewed every day, and committed Christians can experience that same daily renewal.
And, Ephesians 3:16 we learn that the “inner self” is strengthened by the gift of holy spirit as it works in us.

We are born from above (born again) because we have the Spirit of God and are children of God.
It is the spirit that is born of the Spirit. Our spirits are united with the Lord.
From then on, in this life our inner man is being changed into the image of Christ, from glory to glory, as we kill the deeds of the flesh and renew our mind with the Truth from God.
When we are resurrected, our bodies also are adopted, redeemed, and are no longer enemies of the Spirit. Our resurrection bodies, the spiritual bodies we get, are bodies that our spirits can control, as it was meant to have been from the beginning.
But our carnal desires took control and our spirit became the part of us that was controlled more than in control.

Are you now relating the "inner man" to the "spirit" given to us at the new birth in the above?
Our resurrection completes our new birth. We are born again now but the process of fully realizing our new birth results in the resurrection - we will fully reflect the image of the risen Christ for we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

 

[amazing grace]

Since people are resurrected from hades for the final judgement, I don't see the state of those in hades as being permanent. I believe the end is either eternal life or destruction in Gehenna.
However I do believe that those who are destroyed in Gehenna go through a time of torment before they are finally destroyed. (see Rev 14:9-11)

sheol means the state of death, or the state of the dead, of which the grave is evidence of and why the majority of usages for sheol refer to the grave. hades usage is connected with death and never for life and in death, we are place in a grave - both usgaes refer to those in the grave.
The dead will not live again until they are raised from the dead otherwise, we negate the purpose of a resurrection altogether.
So, yes, people are resurrected from their graves for the final judgment to either eternal life or to destruction in Gehenna where they are burned up, i.e. destroyed.

Nevertheless the inner man is something that is just there in all humans and the Spirit works in it to change it to the image of Christ.

Yes, I understand that and may have made an error in my thinking when I related it to the new birth - see previous post.

It means a dead person. But that does not mean that there are no other parts of that person which survive the death of the body.
Why would Jesus say that someone can kill your body but not your soul, of the body is the soul?

If it means a dead person, then the soul is dead. Man is not created in "parts" - he is a complete whole person of body and soul and spirit.
I'm not sure why Matt. has "kill the body but not the soul" and Luke 12:4 just has "kill the body" but bottom line, Jesus is teaching his disciples to not fear man who can only kill the body but not DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna. In one of my books (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E.W. Bullinger), he references Isa. 53:10b with Matt. 10:28 concerning Jesus's crucifixion "when his soul makes an offering for guilt" - in the death of Jesus's body, i.e. Jesus's soul made an offering for our guilt.
Nothing survives the death of the body - if anything survives then the person is NOT DEAD and so death doesn't really mean death and death is no longer an enemy.

The going to be with the Lord happened after Jesus. He ascended and took prisoners with Him (from hades to heaven imo) But that doesn't mean they were then complete. They did not have a body.
The same with those in Christ who go to be with the Lord after their death, they are not complete and they probably are in a similar state of consciousness etc as when in Hades.
This is a reason that they need to be brought back with Jesus when He returns, so that they can be resurrected into their resurrection bodies. (1Thess 4:13-18) The whole person is redeemed. Our spirit has been reborn and adopted but our bodies also await that redemption and adoption (Romans 8:23)

1 Thess. 4:13 could be read in this manner: For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised, so also, we believe that through Jesus, God will bring to life those who have fallen asleep so that they will be with him - which fits with John 5:26, 28.

The same thing is written here: But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (died) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 1 Cor. 15:20-23

 

[Brian2]

They were not created "prone to sin" - everything in the garden was "good" - there was no sin or death.
Correct, God sent them out of the garden.

But I was talking about those people between Adam and the giving of the Law.

Actually, all we can say is that A and E lost their intimate communion with God, but I still am not sure about a "spiritual death" occurring since it is not specifically stated. What we do know from Romans 5 is that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men". The judgment to all mankind . . .
"In that day" - can mean the same day or a period of time - we see that from Gen. 2:4 - "in that day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens" - we know that God's creating was over a period of 6 days. It was the judgment of sin and death that entered THAT DAY.

I have used the argument in the past that Gen 2:17 was equivalent to something like 1Kings 2:37, a judicial statement that did not mean that he would die on that same day. But of course the wording is different and Gen 2:17 doesn't say "know that you will surely die" it says, "on that day you will die".
Interestingly it does not say what sort of death it would be, spiritual or physical.
Physical would be the obvious one but that was not the same day, unless you want to do something like say "day" can be more vague than that.
Physical certainly had to be part of it but that seems to have been more of an after thought and is probably there because they had already died spiritually and living on physically forever after having died spiritually was not a good thing for anyone.

Are you now relating the "inner man" to the "spirit" given to us at the new birth in the above?
Our resurrection completes our new birth. We are born again now but the process of fully realizing our new birth results in the resurrection - we will fully reflect the image of the risen Christ for we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Well I think that everyone, whether born again or not, has an inner being.
For those born again, the inner man is probably the new creation, our spirit joined to the Spirit of Christ. That changes us into being like Him as the Spirit works in our life.
Basically the inner man would be the spiritual part of man as opposed to the outer man, the flesh and carnal mind.

 

[Brian2]

sheol means the state of death, or the state of the dead, of which the grave is evidence of and why the majority of usages for sheol refer to the grave. hades usage is connected with death and never for life and in death, we are place in a grave - both usgaes refer to those in the grave.
The dead will not live again until they are raised from the dead otherwise, we negate the purpose of a resurrection altogether.
So, yes, people are resurrected from their graves for the final judgment to either eternal life or to destruction in Gehenna where they are burned up, i.e. destroyed.

The grave and sheol are used interchangeably in places but studies of useage seem to show that the grave is specifically for the body but sheol encompassed more.
The body dies and the whole of man dies, but it is what this first death means that is the question, not if it happens.
Resurrection is needed for the dead to live again, true, but as I keep saying, the first death does not mean a going out of existence. The destruction of the second death seems to be where that happens, and there cannot be a resurrection from that because it would be God making a copy of the original person. The original person is gone.
But there can be a resurrection if the essence of the original person is there to join to another body or even a reconstituted body.

If it means a dead person, then the soul is dead. Man is not created in "parts" - he is a complete whole person of body and soul and spirit.
I'm not sure why Matt. has "kill the body but not the soul" and Luke 12:4 just has "kill the body" but bottom line, Jesus is teaching his disciples to not fear man who can only kill the body but not DESTROY both body and soul in Gehenna. In one of my books (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E.W. Bullinger), he references Isa. 53:10b with Matt. 10:28 concerning Jesus's crucifixion "when his soul makes an offering for guilt" - in the death of Jesus's body, i.e. Jesus's soul made an offering for our guilt.
Nothing survives the death of the body - if anything survives then the person is NOT DEAD and so death doesn't really mean death and death is no longer an enemy.

I would say that man has parts (body spirit) but a living person is there only when the parts are together. It is only then that a human is a full human.
The body dies and rots and the spirit goes off to God to care for untill the resurrection.

1 Thess. 4:13 could be read in this manner: For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised, so also, we believe that through Jesus, God will bring to life those who have fallen asleep so that they will be with him - which fits with John 5:26, 28.

The same thing is written here: But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (died) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 1 Cor. 15:20-23

We can read 1Thess 4:14 to say something else, but it actually says that God brings back with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in Him.
It is natural to want to see a different meaning in a passage if the passage does not agree with what we believe and we don't want to have to change beliefs and go through the process of bringing all our beliefs into line again.
However it is not a good idea to change the meaning of the scripture for that reason.