Jesus - First Born?

[Jimmy]

I think Jesus was born at the same time everything else was.

 

[Soapy]

They were not created "prone to sin" - everything in the garden was "good" - there was no sin or death.
Correct, God sent them out of the garden.

Actually, all we can say is that A and E lost their intimate communion with God, but I still am not sure about a "spiritual death" occurring since it is not specifically stated. What we do know from Romans 5 is that "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin and so death spread to all men". The judgment to all mankind . . .
"In that day" - can mean the same day or a period of time - we see that from Gen. 2:4 - "in that day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens" - we know that God's creating was over a period of 6 days. It was the judgment of sin and death that entered THAT DAY.

Yes, I can see that all men have an "inner man" - the inner part of yourself that you talk to at times, where your thoughts originate, the "real you", so to speak - as we can see from Romans 7:22,23 - "So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."
In Rom 7:22-23 we learn that our mind is part of “inner self,” and although our mind delights in the law of God and wants to be obedient, there are members of our flesh body that war against our mind and bring us captive to sin (which is why we sin although we don’t want to).
2 Cor 4:16 shows us that our mind can experience a renewal every day. Paul’s body was getting older and weaker, but his “inner self” was being renewed every day, and committed Christians can experience that same daily renewal.
And, Ephesians 3:16 we learn that the “inner self” is strengthened by the gift of holy spirit as it works in us.

Are you now relating the "inner man" to the "spirit" given to us at the new birth in the above?
Our resurrection completes our new birth. We are born again now but the process of fully realizing our new birth results in the resurrection - we will fully reflect the image of the risen Christ for we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

‘Mind’, ‘Spirit’, ‘Body’, ‘Soul’, ‘Inner man’….

How many parts to a human?

“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

Paul is saying that his SPIRIT (His ‘inner being’) delights in the law of God but his BODY (His ‘members’… like a ‘body of believers’ means ‘members of a congregation’) desires to do war against the law his Spirit subscribes to. In other words:

• His spirit desires to do what is right but his body desires to do what is sinful - war between his inner being and his outer being

By the way, I forgot to ask you, if God is three and man is three, and God is ‘Father, Son, and Spirit’, and man is ‘Soul, Spirit, and Body’, what is each in association (‘God’):

1. Father
2. Son
3. Spirit

with (‘Man’):

1. Soul
2. Body
3. Spirit

Which of ‘God’ is ‘Man’?

 

[amazing grace]

But I was talking about those people between Adam and the giving of the Law.

You said:

They died physically, they were prone to sin and all sinned apart from the law and God could not allow them to live forever in that state, so He stopped their access to the tree of life so they would not live forever, physically.

Those people weren't in the garden, so I figured you were talking about Adam and Eve.

I have used the argument in the past that Gen 2:17 was equivalent to something like 1Kings 2:37, a judicial statement that did not mean that he would die on that same day. But of course the wording is different and Gen 2:17 doesn't say "know that you will surely die" it says, "on that day you will die".
Interestingly it does not say what sort of death it would be, spiritual or physical.
Physical would be the obvious one but that was not the same day, unless you want to do something like say "day" can be more vague than that.
Physical certainly had to be part of it but that seems to have been more of an after thought and is probably there because they had already died spiritually and living on physically forever after having died spiritually was not a good thing for anyone.

'for in the day" that you eat of it you shall surely die' - "in the day" that they ate the sentence/judgment of death through sin was initiated and so death spread to all men. Also something did die that day, the first death to occur, the first "animal sacrifice" when God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin and clothed them - symbolically covering their sin. As a I said and referred to Gen. 2:4 - in the day can mean the same day or a period of time - God did not create "in the day" but over a period of 6 days.

Well I think that everyone, whether born again or not, has an inner being.
For those born again, the inner man is probably the new creation, our spirit joined to the Spirit of Christ. That changes us into being like Him as the Spirit works in our life.
Basically the inner man would be the spiritual part of man as opposed to the outer man, the flesh and carnal mind.

Agreed, everyone has an inner being which is what those verses Romans 7:22, 23; 2 Corinthians 4:16; and Eph. 3:16 related to. These verses are not referring to the new birth because EVERYONE is not born again.
For those born again, the new creation is the "new man" in contrast to the "old man".
Eph. 4:24) . . . to put off your old self (man) which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds - be made new in one's thoughts, attitudes, emotions (renew the thinking in your mind [NIV]). .
24) and to put on the new self (man) created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. - the new birth, the new creation

 

[Brian2]

Those people weren't in the garden, so I figured you were talking about Adam and Eve.

I guess I was talking about A and E. But after they sinned they showed they would sin and after learning something about good and evil they would be even more prone to sin than before that.

'for in the day" that you eat of it you shall surely die' - "in the day" that they ate the sentence/judgment of death through sin was initiated and so death spread to all men. Also something did die that day, the first death to occur, the first "animal sacrifice" when God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin and clothed them - symbolically covering their sin. As a I said and referred to Gen. 2:4 - in the day can mean the same day or a period of time - God did not create "in the day" but over a period of 6 days.

OK, interesting interpretation.

 

[amazing grace]

The grave and sheol are used interchangeably in places but studies of useage seem to show that the grave is specifically for the body but sheol encompassed more.
The body dies and the whole of man dies, but it is what this first death means that is the question, not if it happens.
Resurrection is needed for the dead to live again, true, but as I keep saying, the first death does not mean a going out of existence. The destruction of the second death seems to be where that happens, and there cannot be a resurrection from that because it would be God making a copy of the original person. The original person is gone.
But there can be a resurrection if the essence of the original person is there to join to another body or even a reconstituted body.

There are just too many verses where sheol is translated as "grave" for me to list them all.
death = the cessation of life; the end of the life of a person or organism
life = the existence of an individual human being or animal; the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body - either one is dead or one is alive - not both.
If I picture the resurrection, I see God gathering the molecules of each individual body, no matter their amount of decay, rising them up out of their graves and breathing life into them.

I would say that man has parts (body spirit) but a living person is there only when the parts are together. It is only then that a human is a full human.
The body dies and rots and the spirit goes off to God to care for untill the resurrection.

I do not divide a human being into parts but one whole being consisting of body and soul and spirit. Paul was encouraging the Thessalonians to be holy in every area of their life in 1 Thess. 5:23.
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, - make you completely holy = becoming more like Christ allowing God to work in you to eliminate sinful behavior in EVERY AREA OF YOUR LIFE - body and soul and spirit. Paul was concerned about the whole person, his attitude, his mental and emotional life and his physical well being.
Yes, the spirit goes back to God who gave it - When the body dies, there is nothing left to sustain the life, so the life, whether called “soul” or “spirit,” just goes back to God who will reanimate the body later by causing breathe to enter the body resurrected from the grave - just as Ezekiel 37 plainly lays out.

We can read 1Thess 4:14 to say something else, but it actually says that God brings back with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in Him.
It is natural to want to see a different meaning in a passage if the passage does not agree with what we believe and we don't want to have to change beliefs and go through the process of bringing all our beliefs into line again.
However it is not a good idea to change the meaning of the scripture for that reason.

The "meaning" of the verse was not changed. God will bring to life through Christ those that are dead - is that not true?

 

[amazing grace]

‘Mind’, ‘Spirit’, ‘Body’, ‘Soul’, ‘Inner man’….

How many parts to a human?

“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."

Paul is saying that his SPIRIT (His ‘inner being’) delights in the law of God but his BODY (His ‘members’… like a ‘body of believers’ means ‘members of a congregation’) desires to do war against the law his Spirit subscribes to. In other words:

• His spirit desires to do what is right but his body desires to do what is sinful - war between his inner being and his outer being

With his mind he delights in the law of God but in his members, in his body dwells sin, i.e. the sin nature. He has the desire in his heart and mind (his inner self) to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out and he ends up doing the things he does not want to do. Then when he ends up doing what he does not want, it is not him doing it but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in him. Therefore, he has this conflict, this war going on against his "inner being", (law of my mind) but being captive to the law of sin (the sin nature) that dwells in his members (body). That is how I read the verse - you don't have to agree nor does Brian2.

By the way, I forgot to ask you, if God is three and man is three, and God is ‘Father, Son, and Spirit’, and man is ‘Soul, Spirit, and Body’, what is each in association (‘God’):

1. Father
2. Son
3. Spirit

with (‘Man’):

1. Soul
2. Body
3. Spirit

Which of ‘God’ is ‘Man’?

I don't believe God is three nor do I believe man is three. God is ONE being, man is ONE being, wholly comprised of a body and soul and spirit - NOT AS 3 SEPARATE PARTS nor ENTITIES but combining to form a WHOLE.
I don't understand your last question. Man is NOT God nor is GOD a man.

 

[Soapy]

With his mind he delights in the law of God but in his members, in his body dwells sin, i.e. the sin nature. He has the desire in his heart and mind (his inner self) to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out and he ends up doing the things he does not want to do. Then when he ends up doing what he does not want, it is not him doing it but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in him. Therefore, he has this conflict, this war going on against his "inner being", (law of my mind) but being captive to the law of sin (the sin nature) that dwells in his members (body). That is how I read the verse - you don't have to agree nor does Brian2.

I don't believe God is three nor do I believe man is three. God is ONE being, man is ONE being, wholly comprised of a body and soul and spirit - NOT AS 3 SEPARATE PARTS nor ENTITIES but combining to form a WHOLE.
I don't understand your last question. Man is NOT God nor is GOD a man.

Clever response… We have been discussing and debating ‘Man’ as ‘BODY and SOUL’… two parts to man… But all of a sudden because you are asked something that shows your idea of ‘Soul’ as another part of man you suddenly don’t agree that there are two parts to man.

God created THE BODY (the physical part of man) and then blew the breathe of life (the Spirit part, the enlivener) into his lifeless body.

@amazing angel, that is TWO PARTS…
The SPIRIT part is immortal and can only be DESTROYED by God or God’s designated and appointed Servant. The BODY part can, however, be killed by man.

Since you deny that ‘SOUL’ is just another word for ‘PERSON’ I had to ask you those questions. So how do you read 1 Peter 3:20:

• “to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,”
• “because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water
• “who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”

(The above quotes taken from the many versions of the Bible illustrated in ‘Bible Hub’ but no doubt found EVERYWHERE since the translations are all the same whichever version is chosen from wherever it us translated.)

The Greek reads:

• ‘ …. ὀκτὼ ψυχαί διεσώθησαν … ‘
• ‘ …. eight Souls were saved …. ‘

Would you say the Greek meant ‘eight Spirits were saved…’ (‘Spirits’ being translated as ‘People / Persons’?)

Since you are not trinitarian then you rightly say you cannot justify three parts of God BUT SOMEHOW you CAN justify three parts to MAN???….

Which all of a sudden means that man is only ONE PART : ‘Body, Spirit, and Soul’!!!

Sounds no different to Trinitarians saying that God is three parts BUT IS ONE PART!

It doesn’t add up!!!

• “I don't understand your last question. Man is NOT God nor is GOD a man.”

I never says that…!!! I have no idea where you are getting that idea from!!! The only connection I can think of is that ‘Man is IMAGE OF GOD’…

 

[amazing grace]

Clever response… We have been discussing and debating ‘Man’ as ‘BODY and SOUL’… two parts to man… But all of a sudden because you are asked something that shows your idea of ‘Soul’ as another part of man you suddenly don’t agree that there are two parts to man.

I don't believe that man is divided into parts at all. I have been saying that man is comprised of body and soul and spirit this whole time. Post #322, #331, #496, #512, #519 with reference to 1 Thess. 5:23 in #512, #519, #548, #565.

God created THE BODY (the physical part of man) and then blew the breathe of life (the Spirit part, the enlivener) into his lifeless body.

I have even gone through this verse #516, #548.

@amazing angel, that is TWO PARTS…
The SPIRIT part is immortal and can only be DESTROYED by God or God’s designated and appointed Servant. The BODY part can, however, be killed by man.

Since you deny that ‘SOUL’ is just another word for ‘PERSON’ I had to ask you those questions. So how do you read 1 Peter 3:20:

• “to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,”
• “because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water
• “who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”

(The above quotes taken from the many versions of the Bible illustrated in ‘Bible Hub’ but no doubt found EVERYWHERE since the translations are all the same whichever version is chosen from wherever it us translated.)

The Greek reads:

• ‘ …. ὀκτὼ ψυχαί διεσώθησαν … ‘
• ‘ …. eight Souls were saved …. ‘

Would you say the Greek meant ‘eight Spirits were saved…’ (‘Spirits’ being translated as ‘People / Persons’?)

It's "amazing grace".
Within the definition of the phrase "breath of life" here is the definition of breath - nesama 1. breath, spirit A. breath (of God), B. breath (of man) C. every living thing, D. spirit (of man). I have bolded what I believe it to mean in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
of life - hay [masculine noun] relatives, life A. that which breathes, A. life B. sustenance, maintenance I have bolded what I believe it to mean in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
and man became a living soul - nepash 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood) D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions. I believe all are applicable in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
In the context of 1Peter 3:20, I agree that eight Souls means eight persons/people.

Since you are not trinitarian then you rightly say you cannot justify three parts of God BUT SOMEHOW you CAN justify three parts to MAN???….

Which all of a sudden means that man is only ONE PART : ‘Body, Spirit, and Soul’!!!

Sounds no different to Trinitarians saying that God is three parts BUT IS ONE PART!

It doesn’t add up!!!

• “I don't understand your last question. Man is NOT God nor is GOD a man.”

I never says that…!!! I have no idea where you are getting that idea from!!! The only connection I can think of is that ‘Man is IMAGE OF GOD’…

It seems it's all in one's use of words - I have never said that body and soul and spirit are "parts" of man. I said that they comprised the whole, the complete man. Do you believe that 1 Thess. 5:23 is separating man into "parts" or is speaking of man as a whole?

In fact I said "I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. I probably should have said that "some people seem to separate a person into three parts - I do not."

I didn't say you SAID that! I said I didn't understand your question which was: "Which of ‘God’ is ‘Man’?" To which I replied "Man is NOT God nor is God a man.

 

[Soapy]

I don't believe that man is divided into parts at all. I have been saying that man is comprised of body and soul and spirit this whole time. Post #322, #331, #496, #512, #519 with reference to 1 Thess. 5:23 in #512, #519, #548, #565.

I have even gone through this verse #516, #548.

It's "amazing grace".
Within the definition of the phrase "breath of life" here is the definition of breath - nesama 1. breath, spirit A. breath (of God), B. breath (of man) C. every living thing, D. spirit (of man). I have bolded what I believe it to mean in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
of life - hay [masculine noun] relatives, life A. that which breathes, A. life B. sustenance, maintenance I have bolded what I believe it to mean in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
and man became a living soul - nepash 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion; A. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man; B. living being, C. living being (with life in the blood) D. the man himself, self, person or individual, E. seat of the appetites, F. seat of emotions and passions. I believe all are applicable in the context of this verse, if you disagree that's fine.
In the context of 1Peter 3:20, I agree that eight Souls means eight persons/people.

It seems it's all in one's use of words - I have never said that body and soul and spirit are "parts" of man. I said that they comprised the whole, the complete man. Do you believe that 1 Thess. 5:23 is separating man into "parts" or is speaking of man as a whole?

In fact I said "I believe some of the problem lies in separating a person into three parts, i.e. three entities. I probably should have said that "some people seem to separate a person into three parts - I do not."

I didn't say you SAID that! I said I didn't understand your question which was: "Which of ‘God’ is ‘Man’?" To which I replied "Man is NOT God nor is God a man.

Ok, my apology for the misunderstanding of your misunderstanding.
The question was to ask (again), which part of the definitions I gave you (1,2,3) about God, is aligned with the three parts (1,2,3) of man…. It seemed quite simple to me like:

• Is ‘(1) the Father’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…
• Is ‘(2) Son’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…
• Is (3) Spirit’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…

There was/is/and never will be a question of ‘Is man, God’ from me to you.

and man became a living soul - nepash 1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion;

You have quoted that ‘Nephesh’ (Nepesh’) means ‘Soul’ (Hebrew) and ‘Person’ (Greek) but are denying it at the same time… how is that?

• and man became a living soul … a living Person…

A Person is ‘Body and Spirit’
A Soul is ‘Body and Spirit’

In the context of 1Peter 3:20, I agree that eight Souls means eight persons/people.

Yes… Eight People… Eight Souls ….

 

[amazing grace]

Ok, my apology for the misunderstanding of your misunderstanding.
The question was to ask (again), which part of the definitions I gave you (1,2,3) about God, is aligned with the three parts (1,2,3) of man…. It seemed quite simple to me like:

• Is ‘(1) the Father’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…
• Is ‘(2) Son’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…
• Is (3) Spirit’: ‘(1) the Soul’, or ‘(2) the Body’ or ‘(3) the Spirit’…

There was/is/and never will be a question of ‘Is man, God’ from me to you.

I can't answer the question because a do not believe man is divided into parts any more than I believe God is divided into parts.

You have quoted that ‘Nephesh’ (Nepesh’) means ‘Soul’ (Hebrew) and ‘Person’ (Greek) but are denying it at the same time… how is that?

• and man became a living soul … a living Person…

A Person is ‘Body and Spirit’
A Soul is ‘Body and Spirit’


Yes… Eight People… Eight Souls ….

A person is comprised of a body and soul and spirit.

I'm not denying that "soul" [nepesh/psuche] can be translated "person" but that nepesh/psuche is not always translated person. IOW, that is not the only definition those words carry. "Soul" is also translated "life" in many verses. (just a few from Matt. 2:20, 6:25, 10:39, 16:25, etc.) "Soul" is also where emotions arise from within a person: Job 6:3 My soul also is greatly troubled. . .,(I am greatly troubled); Job 30:25 Was not my soul grieved for the needy? (Was I not grieved. . .); Job 7:11 I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. . . (bitterness within myself); Mark 14:34 My soul is very sorrowful . . (I am very sorrowful. . .), etc., so I don't know why you drew a line through "appetite, desire, emotion, passion" within that definition.

 

[Soapy]

I can't answer the question because a do not believe man is divided into parts any more than I believe God is divided into parts.

A person is comprised of a body and soul and spirit.

I'm not denying that "soul" [nepesh/psuche] can be translated "person" but that nepesh/psuche is not always translated person. IOW, that is not the only definition those words carry. "Soul" is also translated "life" in many verses. (just a few from Matt. 2:20, 6:25, 10:39, 16:25, etc.) "Soul" is also where emotions arise from within a person: Job 6:3 My soul also is greatly troubled. . .,(I am greatly troubled); Job 30:25 Was not my soul grieved for the needy? (Was I not grieved. . .); Job 7:11 I will complain in the bitterness of my soul. . . (bitterness within myself); Mark 14:34 My soul is very sorrowful . . (I am very sorrowful. . .), etc., so I don't know why you drew a line through "appetite, desire, emotion, passion" within that definition.

That is amazing… With one hand you wrote the truth … and with the other hand you destroy the truth…. How do you do that???

It is better to just sticking to the truth … say no more: “Soul” is the Hebrew translated word for what the Greeks translated as ‘Pnuema’ or the Latin termed as ‘Persona’ which the English set as ‘Person’… nothing more than that!!!
It is no different to the Hebrews saying ‘Messiah’ and the Greeks / Latin saying ‘Christus’ and the English saying ‘Christ’…

 

[amazing grace]

That is amazing… With one hand you wrote the truth … and with the other hand you destroy the truth…. How do you do that???

It is better to just sticking to the truth … say no more: “Soul” is the Hebrew translated word for what the Greeks translated as ‘Pnuema’ or the Latin termed as ‘Persona’ which the English set as ‘Person’… nothing more than that!!!
It is no different to the Hebrews saying ‘Messiah’ and the Greeks / Latin saying ‘Christus’ and the English saying ‘Christ’…

Truthfully, at this point, I have no idea what you are going on about!
Hebrew: nephesh = soul; Greek: pusche = soul
Hebrew: ruach = spirit; Greek: pnuema = spirit

 

[Soapy]

Truthfully, at this point, I have no idea what you are going on about!
Hebrew: nephesh = soul; Greek: pusche = soul
Hebrew: ruach = spirit; Greek: pnuema = spirit

That’s great…. Thanks!! I did mean to say ‘Psuché as Greek for ‘Soul’ and ‘Person’… typo…

So you just answered exactly what you’ve been trying to deny.,.. WHY???

 

[amazing grace]

That’s great…. Thanks!! I did mean to say ‘Psuché as Greek for ‘Soul’ and ‘Person’… typo…

So you just answered exactly what you’ve been trying to deny.,.. WHY???

Sheesh . . . What is it that you think I have been trying to deny?
Since this conversation isn't going anywhere at this point, I see no reason to continue.

 

[Brian2]

There are just too many verses where sheol is translated as "grave" for me to list them all.
death = the cessation of life; the end of the life of a person or organism
life = the existence of an individual human being or animal; the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body - either one is dead or one is alive - not both.

A dead human being is a lifeless body. It's spirit has gone, but it's spirit is still in existence and carries the life of the body and essence of the person.

If I picture the resurrection, I see God gathering the molecules of each individual body, no matter their amount of decay, rising them up out of their graves and breathing life into them.

If I picture a resurrection, I see our spirits (including the essence of the person) animating a body, whether it is exactly the same body or a transformed and glorified body does not matter.

The "meaning" of the verse was not changed. God will bring to life through Christ those that are dead - is that not true?

No, it says that when Jesus returns He will being with Him the dead Christians. IOW they need to be brought back to earth to be resurrected. . Then they will be resurrected and after that the living Christians will be transformed and go to be with the Lord.

1Thess 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Physical death is when our spirit leaves our body and we die, we are no longer living humanbeings.
Spiritual death is when we lose communion with God, God leaves us.

 

[Betho_br]

Is Revelation 3:14 saying that Christ was created by God?

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Revelation 3:14 (KJV)

Antiquities of the Jews 4:220 Flavius Josephus 1890 Niese edition

Ἂν δὲ πραχθέντος φόνου ἔν τινι χώρᾳ μὴ εὑρίσκηται ὁ δράσας μηδ᾽ ὑπονοῆταί τις ὡς διὰ μῖσος ἀπεκτονηκώς ζητείτωσαν μὲν αὐτὸν μετὰ πολλῆς σπουδῆς μήνυτρα προθέμενοι μηδενὸς δὲ μηνύοντος αἱ ἀρχαὶ τῶν πόλεων τῶν πλησίον τῇ χώρᾳ ἐν ᾗ ὁ φόνος ἐπράχθη καὶ ἡ γερουσία συνελθόντες μετρείτωσαν ἀπὸ τοῦ τόπου ὅπου κεῖται ὁ νεκρὸς τὴν χώραν

Antiquities of the Jews 4:220 Flavius Josephus 1828 Whiston

``If a murder be committed in any place, and he that did it be not found, nor is there any suspicion upon one as if he had hated the man, and so had killed him, let there be a very diligent inquiry made after the slayer, and rewards proposed to anyone who will discover him; but if still no information can be procured, let the magistrates and elders of those cities that lie near the place in which the murder was committed, assemble together, and measure the distance from the place where the dead body lies;

In the quoted passage from Josephus, the word "archai" (ἀρχαί) is used to refer to the authorities of neighboring cities in a legal and governance context. The word "archai" is typically translated as "authorities" or "chiefs" of the cities. This demonstrates that the word "arche" (ἀρχή) can, in some contexts, refer to leaders or authorities.

The traditional interpretation of Revelation 3:14 considers the word "arche" as "beginning" or "principle," which implies an idea of creation or origin. However, based on the use of related words in other parts of ancient literature, such as Josephus, one could argue that "arche" can be interpreted more broadly.

Therefore, one could argue that Revelation 3:14 does not necessarily imply that Christ is the first creation of God, but instead, it could suggest that he is the supreme authority over God's creation. In this sense, the word "arche" could be interpreted as "leader" or "chief," in line with the use of "archai" in Josephus.

 

[Eli G]

Jesus himself said that he obtained life from his Father:

John 6:57 ... the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father ...

So, he had an origin.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus himself said that he obtained life from his Father:

John 6:57 ... the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father ...

So, he had an origin.

The source of the life of the Son is His Father. That does not mean that the Son had a beginning in time.

 

[Eli G]

The source of the life of the Son is His Father. That does not mean that the Son had a beginning in time.

Then you should understand better what means the expression "I live because of the Father" in Jesus' mouth ... they are not just words without meaning.

 

[Brian2]

Then you should understand better what means the expression "I live because of the Father" in Jesus' mouth ... they are not just words without meaning.

John 6:56 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.”…

Yes they are words with meaning. Jesus source of life is His Father, His life comes from His Father, just as the eternal life of a Christian comes from Jesus.