Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[Alex22]

I believe He agrees with me and that is his spiritual presence and not a story.

Nonsense, all you have is something that someone wrote down in your Bible, so that is not evidence in the least.

 

[samtonga43]

Nonsense, all you have is something that someone wrote down in your Bible, so that is not evidence in the least.

I once said the same thing when I was an atheist, Alex. So I do know where you're coming from.
However, the Holy Spirit made His presence known to me before I ever read the Bible.

 

[Alex22]

I once said the same thing when I was an atheist, Alex. So I do know where you're coming from.
However, the Holy Spirit made His presence known to me before I ever read the Bible.

How were the shrooms man?

 

[samtonga43]

How were the shrooms man?

I say to Alex22..
Is this the best you can do?

 

[Alex22]

I say to Alex22..
Is this the best you can do?

You just aren't very convincing, that's all. I've never experienced your "holy spirit"

 

[samtonga43]

You just aren't very convincing, that's all. I've never experienced your "holy spirit"

Yes, I do realize this.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me, Tb, what makes you believe this was not a loss of touch with reality, a symptom of a not uncommon mental illness?

Everything that happened after that.

We do? I think not.

I know and the other Baha’is know. Why would I care if you know?

He got this one right! ‘We’ do know this.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Three Persons, One God.

“We” do not know this.

Yes, I really do think that the B.man was in a crisis situation.

Is that the best insult you can dish out? Manifestations of God do not have “crisis situations.”

Nope. The comforter is the Holy Spirit of God, Second Person of the Trinity. He is eternal, so a substitute would be surplus to requirements.

Dream on. There is no “Person” of the Trinity, except in your imagination.

The Holy Spirit, not the B.man

Yes! The Holy Spirit not the B.man.

Yes. The Holy Spirit, not the B.man.

Repeating yourself over and over is not going to change reality. You cannot change the reality that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth that Jesus sent from the Father by denying it.

Yep, the Comforter/Spirit of truth was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised the Father would send, and Jesus kept His promise. The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha’u’llah in the Black Pit Prison where He received the Holy Spirit, and after that Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God, shed the splendor of His Glory upon all created things, just as Jesus, the Son of God, had done 2000 years before.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Christians do not ‘own’ the Holy Spirit; it is God’s Holy Spirit and it belongs to everyone.

Again, correct. Nothing whatsoever to do with the B.man.

It has everything to do with Baha’u’llah, since He was the Spirit of truth.

You omitted “These three are one”. Now why would you do this?

Because those three are not one, they are three.

All things were made by the Triune God since the Triune God created the heavens and the earth.

All things were made by God since God created the heavens and the earth. There is no Triune God except in your imagination.

“Divine perceptions”? Sounds like the B.man’s invention.

No. The Word IS Jesus.

No, actually it was Abdu’l-Baha’s invention, since it came from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha.

No, the Word was God, not Jesus. That is what the verse says.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Muffled]

I agree that God's Word is true and not imaginary, but God's Word does not say that Jesus is coming in the sky, it says that Jesus is coming in the 'clouds of heaven.'

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30-31 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

What does that mean to say "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds?"

Why would Jesus keep it a secret if He had been planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say His work was finished here (John 17:4) and He was no more in the world (John 17:11) if He was planning to return to earth? Why did Jesus say “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36) if He was planning to come back and build a kingdom on earth? When asked if He was a king, why did Jesus say explain to Pilate “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth” (John 18:37) if Jesus was coming back to rule as a king, as Christians believe?

Jesus fulfilled His purpose by bearing witness to the truth about God, so there is no reason for Jesus to return to earth a second time. These verses are clues that tell us that Jesus was never planning to return to earth to rule and build the Kingdom of God, and that means that the Messiah who would accomplish this has to be another man.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

To explain in brief, I believe that ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ. Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

Much of this is explained in Thief in the Night by William Sears, who researched the Bible prophecies for seven years and explained exactly how they were fulfilled by the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

I believe that is equivalent to sky.

I believe both of those men were born and did not come in the sky. Not only that they didn't fight in the battle of Armageddon with a fiery sword.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is equivalent to sky.

I believe both of those men were born and did not come in the sky. Not only that they didn't fight in the battle of Armageddon with a fiery sword.

I do not believe that "clouds" in the Bible refers to clouds in the sky. I believe it refers to veils, which means things that cloud our ability to see the Sun of Truth, which was the return of Christ.

Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah were all born on earth, they did not come in the sky, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus will return in the sky. I believe all that language such as "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" is metaphorical, not literal.

 

[samtonga43]

samtonga43 said:
Tell me, Tb, what makes you believe this was not a loss of touch with reality, a symptom of a not uncommon mental illness?

Everything that happened after that.

Exactly. A perfect example of confirmation bias.

I know and the other Baha’is know. Why would I care if you know?

No, you don’t KNOW. You believe.

Is that the best insult you can dish out? Manifestations of God do not have “crisis situations.”

That's not an insult. I would never insult a person with an obvious mental aberration. But you are correct about authentic manifestations of God. There are no crisis situations there..

Dream on. There is no “Person” of the Trinity, except in your imagination.

On the contrary, there are Three.

Repeating yourself over and over is not going to change reality. You cannot change the reality that Baha’u’llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth that Jesus sent from the Father by denying it.

What I am denying is not reality.

Yep, the Comforter/Spirit of truth was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised the Father would send, and Jesus kept His promise. The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Baha’u’llah in the Black Pit Prison where He received the Holy Spirit, and after that Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. Baha’u’llah, the Glory of God, shed the splendor of His Glory upon all created things, just as Jesus, the Son of God, had done 2000 years before.

The B.man SAID that the Father sent the Holy Spirit to the B.man.

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

Jesus did all of this 2000 years earlier. It’s all in that Book you want to burn.

Christians do not ‘own’ the Holy Spirit; it is God’s Holy Spirit and it belongs to everyone.

He; never ‘it’.

Because those three are not one, they are three.

(You know what they say about people who can’t stop rolling their eyes around...)
Anyway, I believe you omitted the words “These three are one” because you know that they can refer to nothing else than the Trinity.

No, actually it was Abdu’l-Baha’s invention, since it came from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha.

'Invention' is the correct appellation.

No, the Word was God, not Jesus. That is what the verse says.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God was with God?

 

[Trailblazer]

Exactly. A perfect example of confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias,[Note 1] is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.[1]It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia

No, it is not an example at all.

‘Everything that happened after that' (after Baha'u'llah first heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison) is the history of the Baha’i Faith, which is what Baha’u’llah did on His mission from God.

That is not confirmation bias, it is history. There is nothing to interpret or favor, just stuff to read. History is history.

There was also nothing to confirm since I had no pre-existing beliefs before I read the history of the Baha’i Faith.

No, you don’t KNOW. You believe.

No, I know. Some people believe, some people know.

That's not an insult. I would never insult a person with an obvious mental aberration. But you are correct about authentic manifestations of God. There are no crisis situations there.

No, there were no crisis situations for any of the authentic Manifestations of God such as Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

On the contrary, there are Three.

There is not even one Person, let alone three.

What I am denying is not reality.

It is, but you will never know it because you live in a fantasy.

The B.man SAID that the Father sent the Holy Spirit to the B.man.

Wrong. Jesus said that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to the Comforter, who was Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah did not say anything about that.

Trailblazer said: ↑
“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

Jesus did all of this 2000 years earlier. It’s all in that Book you want to burn.

You are right, Jesus did all these things 2000 years ago. That passage is Baha’u’llah writing about Jesus, it is not Baha’u’llah writing about Himself. Baha’u’llah did not do any of those things in that passage since that was not His mission from God. Baha’u’llah came to unite mankind.

Sorry for the mix-up. What I was trying to point out is that Baha’u’llah also brought the Holy Spirit to humanity and shed the splendor of His Glory upon all created things, just as Jesus had done 2000 years earlier.

I do not want to burn the Bible just because I said that once. I tell my husband all kinds of awful things I never meant but I won’t repeat those here.

He; never ‘it’.

There is no He because there is no Person. This is not just a Baha’i belief, if you look at all the Christians on this forum most do not believe in a Trinity, and I am not only referring to JWs. Yet these Christians are all reading the same Bible as you are reading…. Hmmmm.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Because those three are not one, they are three.

(You know what they say about people who can’t stop rolling their eyes around...)

Anyway, I believe you omitted the words “These three are one” because you know that they can refer to nothing else than the Trinity.

Correction: Because the three that you believe are one are not one, they are three entities.

The only Trinity that exists is the three that are separate but working together.

God is one entity, Jesus is one entity, and the Holy Spirit is one entity. They all work together as a team to get the message of God out and God is the head of the team.

Jesus cannot be God because Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Jesus cannot be greater than Himself. You cannot make it work so why not just throw in the towel and join the other non-Trinitarian Christians who think logically?

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God was with God?

They are your scriptures so I will leave it to you to figure out what the verse means. I am sure all Christians do not interpret that verse the same way.

 

[samtonga43]

‘Everything that happened after that' (after Baha'u'llah first heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison) is the history of the Baha’i Faith, which is what Baha’u’llah did on his mission from God. That is not confirmation bias, it is history. There is nothing to interpret or favor, just stuff to read. History is history.

Just to be clear, are you saying that it is an historical fact that Baha'u'llah heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison?

There was also nothing to confirm since I had no pre-existing beliefs before I read the history of the Baha’i Faith.

Did you not believe that Baha'u'llah heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison?
***
Mark10:18
Within the complete context of Jesus interactions with questioners of this kind it can be seen that Jesus is not denying that He is God. He is, in fact, doing the opposite. His question “Why do you call me good?” is a prompt to encourage the young man to think about what he has said. "Why are you calling me good? Are you calling me God? If you are, are you ready to listen to me?"
It seems likely to me that Jesus is showing the man the logical consequence of God alone being good:
1. Only God is good.
2. Therefore the young man cannot be good.
3. So how can he (the young man) earn eternal life?

Matthew, in his Gospel, says:
"He said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good'" (Matthew 19:17)

 

[samtonga43]

They are your scriptures so I will leave it to you to figure out what the verse means. I am sure all Christians do not interpret that verse the same way.

Here is your interpretation, based on your belief that the Word was God:
If you are correct, then God was with God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Therefore you say that, according to this verse, God was with God.

This interpretation of yours makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

 

[Trailblazer]

Just to be clear, are you saying that it is an historical fact that Baha'u'llah heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison?

That Baha’u’llah was in the Black Pit Prison is a historical fact. It is not a historical fact that anyone ever heard the Voice of God at any time or anywhere, and that includes Jesus. It is a religious belief that Jesus and Baha’u’llah heard the Voice of God, it can never be proven as a fact.

Did you not believe that Baha'u'llah heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit in the Black Pit Prison?

No, not until I read about it. How else could I know?

Mark10:18
Within the complete context of Jesus interactions with questioners of this kind it can be seen that Jesus is not denying that He is God. He is, in fact, doing the opposite. His question “Why do you call me good?” is a prompt to encourage the young man to think about what he has said. "Why are you calling me good? Are you calling me God? If you are, are you ready to listen to me?"
It seems likely to me that Jesus is showing the man the logical consequence of God alone being good:
1. Only God is good.
2. Therefore the young man cannot be good.
3. So how can he (the young man) earn eternal life?

Jesus is clearly differentiating Himself from God in this verse. Me and God. That does not mean Jesus was not good, Jesus was just saying He is not good compared to God.

KJ21
And Jesus said unto him, “Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but One, that is, God.

ESV
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

NASB
But Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

NIRV
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good except God.

NIV
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

NRSV
Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.

Matthew, in his Gospel, says:
"He said to him, 'Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good'" (Matthew 19:17)

No, that logic does not fly. Jesus is clearly differentiating Himself from God in this verse. Me and God, meaning Jesus and God are separate entities.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is your interpretation, based on your belief that the Word was God:
If you are correct, then God was with God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Therefore you say that, according to this verse, God was with God.

This interpretation of yours makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

I'm in luck because I just found the authoritative Baha'i interpretation of that verse.

“As it is said in the Gospel of John, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”; 1 then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality—that is to say, its light and heat—were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, “It is the sun.” Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: “The Word was with God, and the Word was God”; 2 for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness.” Some Answered Questions, p. 206

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, God is just a word. It has no meaning beyond that, unless you make it up yourself as religious luminaries and charlatans do.

 

[samtonga43]

No, I know. Some people believe, some people know.

WOW! You know! Get the proof on here soon as you can. The world awaits…

There is not even one Person, let alone three.

What do you mean by the word ‘Person’ in this context? Are you sure that you are not visualizing a human-type 'person'?

Wrong. Jesus said that the Father would send the Holy Spirit to the Comforter, who was Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah did not say anything about that.

Jesus said nothing of the sort. Now, this IS fantasy.

Jesus cannot be greater than Himself.

It’s all about the nature of the incarnation. Jesus was fully man, fully God. He subjected Himself to the will of the Father while on earth. Again, context is extremely important. You will get nowhere until you grasp this fact.

 

[samtonga43]

Yeah, God is just a word. It has no meaning beyond that, unless you make it up yourself as religious luminaries and charlatans do.

Lol! Let’s be rational here, Aupmanyav. Because God has no meaning for you, does it follow that God has no meaning for others?

 

[Aupmanyav]

All people write their own opinions. That is mine. If your belief is other than that, you are welcome.

History is history.

History without proof is belief, story, myth, legend, etc. - like 'Bahaollah heard the voice of Allah'. It becomes history if there is proof.
God has a voice, he has divine vocal chords, and lungs to push air through the vocal chords and a nose to breathe air in.
Surely, man made God in his own image.
How old were you at the time when you read about Bahais? I am a bit surprised that at that time you had no pre-existing belief.

 

[samtonga43]

All people write their own opinions. That is mine. If your belief is other than that, you are welcome.

Here is my question again. How about answering it, if you can.
Lol! Let’s be rational here, Aupmanyav. Because God has no meaning for you, does it follow that God has no meaning for others?