Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[samtonga43]

Sure start with I am the only way the truth and the life. no one comes to God except through me. Pure propaganda.

I look forward to reading the evidence which leads to your belief that Jesus' claim is propaganda.

 

[samtonga43]

By all rights, you could test the ideas in the scriptures of other religions, not just the New Testament, and come up with the same outcome, so what does that tell you?

I was also an atheist, and as an atheist I looked into each of the world religions and I found them all to be strangely interesting but easily dismissed as wishful thinking, myth, irrational etc.
Forward several years, and I had become involved with a University atheist group. I re-read the Bible in order to arm myself with the facts needed to discuss theology with Christians.
As I was reading, something remarkable happened. I very slowly began to see, as I read on, and on and on, that what I had dismissed as nonsense, was now imbued with a sense of Truth.
The very last thing I wanted was to experience this volte-face, and I fought against it all the way, before I submitted.
There was no moment of “Hallelujah, I am saved!!” Rather, it was a long process of being drawn (unwillingly at times) to the Son by the Father.

Everything turned upside down. My life changed. I cannot say that it was easier, that problems were erased, that doubts fled, but I can say that the Truth set me free.
It was my first experience of the active Presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[samtonga43]

That is separate from faith. One can have faith without love.

Now there is an interesting (and astonishing) response, Tb. I can’t imagine having faith in God without loving Him. How does that work?

No, Jesus is not God, only in your imagination is Jesus God. This is how Christians try to claim superiority over every other religion but it won’t work because Jesus is not God, and Jesus is not “better” than any other Manifestation of God.

Oh, it works, Tb. You too may see one day that it works... perfectly.

Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is not God
I see that no Trinitarians showed up to try to refute what was said in the video.

I have better things to do, I looked at maybe ten minutes, and I would rather stick pins in my eyes than watch any more.

No, people did not speak that way, but Baha’u’llah was not a person.

Really? Are you sure about this?

He was a Manifestation of God, and they tend to speak differently than ordinary people.

So Jesus cannot be a 'manifestation of God', since He spoke the language of the marketplace. Isn’t this what I’ve been telling you, Tb? Time to connect the dots.

The Holy Spirit is not a person so it did not have a ministry. Jesus was a person who had a ministry. The Holy Spirit was the Bounty of God that was sent to Jesus by God and Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Holy Spirit was sent again when God sent it to Baha’u’llah in the Black Pit prison.

No. ONE BEING; THREE PERSONS

Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of Truth as written in Acts 2. Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

B. was just a man who lived under the delusion that he was something he was not. There are thousands, if not millions of people like this.
We are definitely living in the last days. And yet the last day has not come. The last days refers to the period of time we are now in—between Christ’s death/resurrection/ascension and his second appearing or return. This is also called “the last time/s” (Jude 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:20) or “the last hour” (1 John 2:18) or “the end of the ages” (1 Cor. 10:11).
See more here:
Yes, We Really Are Living in the Last Days

The Holy Spirit might guide us in our everyday lives but it does not do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a person could do those things. The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is a Spirit! That is why it is called the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity. Wait!! Please tell me you’re not thinking of the word ‘Person’ (as in Triune God) as you think of a human ’person’. Surely not!!

Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is not God
I see that no Trinitarians showed up to try to refute what was said in the video.

I have better things to do, I looked at maybe ten minutes, and I would rather stick pins in my eyes than watch any more.

No, people did not speak that way, but Baha’u’llah was not a person.

Really? Are you sure about this?

He was a Manifestation of God, and they tend to speak differently than ordinary people.

So Jesus cannot be a manifestation of God, since He spoke the language of the marketplace. Isn’t this what I’ve been telling you, Tb? Time to connect the dots.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was also an atheist, and as an atheist I looked into each of the world religions and I found them all to be strangely interesting but easily dismissed as wishful thinking, myth, irrational etc.
Forward several years, and I had become involved with a University atheist group. I re-read the Bible in order to arm myself with the facts needed to discuss theology with Christians.
As I was reading, something remarkable happened. I very slowly began to see, as I read on, and on and on, that what I had dismissed as nonsense, was now imbued with a sense of Truth.
The very last thing I wanted was to experience this volte-face, and I fought against it all the way, before I submitted.
There was no moment of “Hallelujah, I am saved!!” Rather, it was a long process of being drawn (unwillingly at times) to the Son by the Father.

Everything turned upside down. My life changed. I cannot say that it was easier, that problems were erased, that doubts fled, but I can say that the Truth set me free.
It was my first experience of the active Presence of the Holy Spirit.

I was also a nonbeliever before I became a Baha'i. I was not raised in any religion and my parents had both dropped out of their respective churches (my father was raised Anglican and my mother Greek orthodox).
Unlike you, I never researched any religions as I never had any interest in religion or in God, but i bumped into the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college and I knew it was true, after reading as many books about it as were available at that time.

After I became a Baha'i, I had all kinds of emotional problems from what had been repressed in my childhood so I never had much involvement in the Baha'i community, and eventually I dropped out of activities altogether while I was in college and doing my recovery work. However, I never lost my belief in Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith, although I never had a relationship with God. This is not typical for Baha'is, it was just my personal experience.

Sometime in the early 2000s because if all the tests and difficulties in my life, I had reached a point where I hated the Baha'i Faith and God and I wanted nothing to do with either one, yet I still believed in them. Fast forward to January 2013, I was at a time in my life where I realized I needed to resolve my issues with God and that is when I stumbled upon the Planet Baha'i forum and got involved with other Baha'is online. That was the beginning of my own soul searching and learning about God what I had not known before, because the primary reason I became a Baha'i was because of the teachings and principles, not for a relationship with God.

After I became a Baha'i in 1970, I was never interested in it as a religion, just for the social and spiritual teachings. Moreover I was never interested in any other religions either, and it was not until I started posting on forums in 2013 that I started to learn about other religions, mainly Christianity, and I learned mist of what I know from Christians and from reading the Bible online. I know a little about Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism, just enough to be dangerous.

My life started to change in 2013 when I started to take God and the Baha'i Faith seriously, and it changed more and more after that. I reached a turning point in June 2014 when I had a major life crisis and turned to Gleanings and read it seriously for the first time, and that is when I found out who God is and who Baha'u'llah is as God's Representative. Maybe that can be likened to your experience when you found what found in the Bible. What you found in the Bible I found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, and I did not read only Gleanings, I read other books.

I am no longer the person I once was and there is no turning back, only moving forward.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now there is an interesting (and astonishing) response, Tb. I can’t imagine having faith in God without loving Him. How does that work?

You cannot imagine it because you are not me. A person can have faith that God exists and is there for them without loving God or feeling love from God. This thing about needing love from God is a Christian thing; although all Baha’is I know love God, they do not love God becaue they “need” God’s love. They love God because Baha’u’llah wrote that God loves us and that we should love God. For example:

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Trailblazer said: No, people did not speak that way, but Baha’u’llah was not a person.

Really? Are you sure abo

ut this?

I am 100% certain that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God, just as I am certain that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, which is not a person.

Manifestations of God are a different order of creation than ordinary men because they have a twofold nature that ordinary humans do not possess. They got their spiritual nature before they were born into this world since their souls had preexistence in the spiritual world.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

I have better things to do, I looked at maybe ten minutes, and I would rather stick pins in my eyes than watch any more.

That’s right, because them you might have to face the fact that Jesus is not God, a fact that you choose to ignore even though Jesus Himself made it abundantly clear. You do not want to know the truth; you just want to keep on believing what you believe because it is comfortable for you.

Trailblazer said: He was a Manifestation of God, and they tend to speak differently than ordinary people.

So Jesus cannot be a 'manifestation of God', since He spoke the language of the marketplace. Isn’t this what I’ve been telling you, Tb? Time to connect the dots.

I never said that, and besides, Jesus did speak differently than ordinary people. Jesus spoke in parables, and that is because that is what people needed at that time because that is what the people Jesus spoke to were able to understand. I love Jesus’ parables but we no longer need parables to understand spiritual truths and that is why Baha’u’llah usually spoke directly, just as Jesus promised the Comforter/Spirit of truth would do when He came.

John 16:25 KJV These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

John 16:25 NIV Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

And that is exactly what Baha’u’llah did in Gleanings! It is amazing how accurate the Bible is.

No. ONE BEING; THREE PERSONS

We know that the Christian Trinity is not true because we know that Jesus is not God for all the logical and scriptural reasons given in that video you don’t have time to watch.

The Baha’i Faith believes in a Trinity, and the detailed explanation is in this chapter: 27: THE TRINITY

Briefly, we believe that there are three separate entities involved: (1) God, (2) the Manifestation of God, and (3) the Holy Spirit, and they work together but they are not all part of God. (The Manifestation of God is also referred to as a Messenger or a Prophet.)

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God to whom God sent the Holy Spirit and then Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to Earth. By bringing the Holy Spirit to Earth, Jesus shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things.

God is exalted above anything that can ever be recounted or perceived so never descends to Earth to become a man. Rather, God sends the souls of Manifestations of God such as Jesus from the spiritual world (heaven) and then their souls unite with their bodies at the moment of conception and they are born into a human body. Later, after these men reach a certain age, God sends the Holy Spirit to them as happened to Jesus with the dove. Moses received the Holy Spirit at the Burning Bush, Muhammad received the Holy Spirit from the Angel Gabriel, and Baha’u’llah received the Holy Spirit in the form of a Maiden. When these Manifestations of God receive et the Holy Spirit that is when they start talking about God to their disciples, or in the case of Baha’u’llah, writings things down. Then what they say or write is compiled into religious scriptures that humans can benefit from.

B. was just a man who lived under the delusion that he was something he was not. There are thousands, if not millions of people like this.

Jesus was also just a man, not God. The Christians tried to make Jesus into God at the Council of Nicaea and you bought off on the lie. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, not God incarnate. God cannot become flesh and die on the cross.

Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation and there is enough evidence proving that to sink a large ocean liner, evidence you will never be able to refute, which is no doubt why you never tried. You just have to believe that Jesus is the Only Way because you have been amply brainwashed to believe that, just like every other Christian, even though it is refuted by the coming of Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha’u’llah, all of whom fulfilled the Bible prophecies.

Whatcha gonna do about Muhammad, try to sweep him under the carpet too? Good luck with that because Islam is projected to be the largest religion in the world during the last half of the 21st century. Christianity by contrast is on the decline.

We are definitely living in the last days. And yet the last day has not come. The last days refers to the period of time we are now in—between Christ’s death/resurrection/ascension and his second appearing or return. This is also called “the last time/s” (Jude 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:20) or “the last hour” (1 John 2:18) or “the end of the ages” (1 Cor. 10:11).

See more here:
Yes, We Really Are Living in the Last Days

The website got this right:

“It is helpful to think of the Old Testament as the age of promise, where God promised his people a Messiah who would establish and rule over his Kingdom.”

With the advent of Baha’u’llah as the return of Christ, or the Messiah, we have the age of fulfillment. Also, there is no “last day” because the world is not going to end! Time of the end means end of an age, not the end of the world. Even the Bible translations have been changed to reflect that. The end of the “age of prophecy” came when the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared and fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ and the Messiah.

The salient point is that Christians who believe that the same Jesus who walked the earth 2000 years ago is going to return to earth are deluded because Jesus is never going to come back to earth, NEVER. Jesus made that point abundantly clear in the following verses:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said he was coming to rule.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

There is not even one verse where Jesus promised to return to earth. All the verses Christians “believe” refer to the return of the same Jesus refer to Baha’u’llah, who was the return of the Christ Spirit as promised by Jesus. Sadly, all the misconceptions came about because of Christians misinterpreting the Bible and thus misunderstanding what the Bible means regarding the return of Christ.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I look forward to reading the evidence which leads to your belief that Jesus' claim is propaganda.

You can't even produce evidence Jesus existed, period! If he never existed obviously his claim "I am the only way to God" was written by churchmen to lure pagans into the religion. Pure insidious evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can't even produce evidence Jesus existed, period! If he never existed obviously his claim "I am the only way to God" was written by churchmen to lure pagans into the religion. Pure insidious evil.

One thing we do know, John 14:6 was not written by Jesus.
As such, for Christians to try to use it to claim superiority over all the other religions is a Hail Mary.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I have been reading Ehrman for years and I agree that he is highly respected in his field. Does this mean I ought to believe everything he says, and agree with his every conclusion? Are you really saying that the Gospels are not reliable because Ehrman says so?
Have you read anyone else on this subject?

He, Dr. Carrier, and 50 respected CHRISTIAN Biblical scholars of the Jesus Seminar.

According to the Seminar, Jesus was a mortal man born of two human parents, who did NOT perform nature miracles nor die as a substitute for sinners nor rise bodily from the dead.[4][5][6]

Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia

Conclusion: Jesus was a sham.

But he existed.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

If it is true, and I believe it is true, can it be irrational? Is your definition of 'irrational' something you do not believe to be true?

Why do Christians think it's rational and non-Christians think it's irrational?

 

[Trailblazer]

He, Dr. Carrier, and 50 respected CHRISTIAN Biblical scholars of the Jesus Seminar.

According to the Seminar, Jesus was a mortal man born of two human parents, who did NOT perform nature miracles nor die as a substitute for sinners nor rise bodily from the dead.[4][5][6]

Jesus Seminar - Wikipedia

I was just about to give you an Informative when I realized that I already knew that.
Jesus did NOT perform nature miracles nor die as a substitute for sinners nor rise bodily from the dead.

Conclusion: Jesus was a sham.

But he existed.

But I do not believe that Jesus was a sham. Rather I would say that certain Christian beliefs are a sham.
Poor Jesus, he would be aghast at what Christians believe about him, but it is not his fault. You can blame the Church and Paul for that.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

I was just about to give you an Informative when I realized that I already knew that.
Jesus did NOT perform nature miracles nor die as a substitute for sinners nor rise bodily from the dead.

But I do not believe that Jesus was a sham. Rather I would say that certain Christian beliefs are a sham.
Poor Jesus, he would be aghast at what Christians believe about him, but it is not his fault. You can blame the Church and Paul for that.

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

Here's how the Jesus seminar described Jesus:

The Seminar's reconstruction of the historical Jesus portrayed him as an itinerant Hellenistic Jewish sage and faith-healer who preached a gospel of liberation from injustice in startling parables and aphorisms.[4][5][6] An iconoclast, Jesus broke with established Jewish theological dogmas and social conventions in both his teachings and his behavior, often by turning common-sense ideas upside down, confounding the expectations of his audience: he preached of "Heaven's imperial rule" (traditionally translated as "Kingdom of God") as being already present but unseen; he depicts God as a loving father; he fraternizes with outsiders and criticizes insiders.

Reza Aslan believes Jesus was a seditionist who tried to instigate a rebellion against Roman rule

Two thousand years ago, an itinerant Jewish preacher and miracle worker walked across the Galilee, gathering followers to establish what he called the “Kingdom of God.” The revolutionary movement he launched was so threatening to the established order that he was captured, tortured, and executed as a state criminal.

Two decades after his shameful death, his followers would call him God.

Zealot: The Life and Times of Jesus of Nazareth

 

[Truthseeker]

One thing we do know, John 14:6 was not written by Jesus.
As such, for Christians to try to use it to claim superiority over all the other religions is a Hail Mary.

Well, I think He said that, probably, but all Manifestations of are in a sense one person, as they reflect the same God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I think He said that, probably, but all Manifestations of are in a sense one person, as they reflect the same God.

Why do you think Jesus said that? How could we ever know if He did, passed down by oral tradition decades after He "might" have said it?

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Well, I think He said that, probably, but all Manifestations of are in a sense one person, as they reflect the same God.

And here is the core of the problem with Christianity: since we have absolutely no evidence Jesus the son of died lived (as opposed to a historical anonymous sage of some kind around which mythical stores were built) and we have no writings from him and absolutely no testimony from any first-hand witnesses who recorded their own accounts of Jesus or any historical evidence of any kind, Christians are free to say, "I think this about Jesus" and "I think that about Jesus" and these are nothing but opinions without any foundation. Much of what is attributed to Jesus in the gospels was written by Greeks who lived up to a century after the crucifixion and in all likelihood never talked to witnesses--assuming any would still be alive a century later. The whole premise is so nebulous and half-baked that it's impossible for a rational person with half a brain to even consider any of this is factual.

 

[samtonga43]

You can't even produce evidence Jesus existed, period! If he never existed obviously his claim "I am the only way to God" was written by churchmen to lure pagans into the religion. Pure insidious evil.

Bart Ehrman can produce evidence that Jesus existed. Haven't you read his famous book "Did Jesus Exist?" He vigorously defended the historical Jesus. You ought to read it!

 

[samtonga43]

And here is the core of the problem with Christianity: since we have absolutely no evidence Jesus the son of died lived (as opposed to a historical anonymous sage of some kind around which mythical stores were built) and we have no writings from him and absolutely no testimony from any first-hand witnesses who recorded their own accounts of Jesus or any historical evidence of any kind, Christians are free to say, "I think this about Jesus" and "I think that about Jesus" and these are nothing but opinions without any foundation. Much of what is attributed to Jesus in the gospels was written by Greeks who lived up to a century after the crucifixion and in all likelihood never talked to witnesses--assuming any would still be alive a century later. The whole premise is so nebulous and half-baked that it's impossible for a rational person with half a brain to even consider any of this is factual.

You are so funny, SAT! Half a brain? Do some research. Start with John Polkinghorne, John Lennox, Alister McGrath, Francis Collins...
When you've done this I'll point you to many more Christians with a lot more than 'half a brain'. You are doing yourself no favours, SAT.

 

[samtonga43]

Why do you think Jesus said that? How could we ever know if He did, passed down by oral tradition decades after He "might" have said it?

Oral testimony is very important in all historical topics, not just in Biblical testimony. See here:
The Story Of The Storytellers - Importance Of The Oral Tradition | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

You are so funny, SAT! Half a brain? Do some research. Start with John Polkinghorne, John Lennox, Alister McGrath, Francis Collins...
When you've done this I'll point you to many more Christians with a lot more than 'half a brain'. You are doing yourself no favours, SAT.

I mis-worded. I should have said, "It's impossible for anyone with half a brain..."

 

[Trailblazer]

Oral testimony is very important in all historical topics, not just in Biblical testimony. See here:
The Story Of The Storytellers - Importance Of The Oral Tradition | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS

Yes indeed, oral testimony was very important back in the days of Jesus, but it was no longer necessary by the time we got to the 19th century, because we have the original writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah penned in their own hands and we also had people who lived during the 19th century who knew the Bab and Baha'ullah and chronicled their lives.

The complete history of the Baha'i Faith is available in the Baha’i Reference Library for all to read online for free.
The downloadable version is available in the new Baha’i Reference Library.

The history began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944). Of course the history going forward is still to be written.

In addition to those texts we have The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of Baha'u'llah's Mission, from 1852-1892.

 

[samtonga43]

I mis-worded. I should have said, "It's impossible for anyone with half a brain..."

So, according to SAT, the people I mentioned -- scientists, mathematicians, theologians, philosophers each have only half a brain.
LOL!I would stop digging if I were you, SAT.