• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Yes indeed, oral testimony was very important back in the days of Jesus, but it was no longer necessary by the time we got to the 19th century, because we have the original writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah penned in their own hands and we also had people who lived during the 19th century who knew the Bab and Baha'ullah and chronicled their lives.
Don’t be silly, Tb. Oral testimony is of the utmost importance in every field of academic historicity. “Important during the days of Jesus”!!! LOL! You two are quite a double act!
The complete history of the Baha'i Faith is available in the Baha’i Reference Library for all to read online for free.The downloadable version is available in the new Baha’i Reference Library. The history began in 1844 with the coming of the Bab. The two texts that depict the history are The Dawn-Breakers (Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation) and God Passes By (1844-1944). Of course the history going forward is still to be written.
In addition to those texts we have The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of Baha'u'llah's Mission, from 1852-1892.
And now for the shortened version: a Muslim decides that he is the (next) manifestation of God (as have countless people of a certain disposition throughout the centuries), He promotes this new message using an over-embellished version of Ye Olde English, so not quite up to speed there, methinks.
 

SeekingAllTruth

Well-Known Member
So, according to SAT, the people I mentioned -- scientists, mathematicians, theologians, philosophers each have only half a brain.
LOL!I would stop digging if I were you, SAT.
YOu're trying to tell us that scientists, mathematicians, theologians, philosophers all believe Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life blabla." Now THAT is truly worth a good LOL. Sam, God bless and protect you. I think you'll need it.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
YOu're trying to tell us that scientists, mathematicians, theologians, philosophers all believe Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life blabla." Now THAT is truly worth a good LOL. Sam, God bless and protect you. I think you'll need it.
Well, they would of course omit the ‘blabla’ because of their creative intelligence and their faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Don’t be silly, Tb. Oral testimony is of the utmost importance in every field of academic historicity. “Important during the days of Jesus”!!! LOL! You two are quite a double act!
Your attempts at deflection won’t work with me. I was not talking about academic historicity, so you are off topic. I was talking about religion.

As I pointed out and you ignored, oral tradition is no longer necessary in religion because we have written accounts of the two latest Messengers of God, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

I do not need to rely upon oral tradition to know that Jesus existed and what He did that was of importance because it was revealed in the Baha’i Writings.
And now for the shortened version: a Muslim decides that he is the (next) manifestation of God (as have countless people of a certain disposition throughout the centuries), He promotes this new message using an over-embellished version of Ye Olde English, so not quite up to speed there, methinks.
Baha’u’llah did not talk in English at all so there is another attempt to discredit Him with something that is not even true, since you don’t have anything else. But you already know that they were translated into that style of English and why, because I already explained that.

And now for the accurate version: A Muslim man receives a revelation from God through the Holy Spirit while in the Black Pit prison, so He suddenly realizes that He was chosen by God to deliver a new message to the world. A Maid of Heaven spoke to Baha’u’llah in that prison and this is similar to what happened to Jesus when the Holy Spirit descended from heaven in the form of a Dove and told Him He was God’s Son.

Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

And now for the continuation of the accurate version: After the Muslim gets His first revelation from God in 1852 AD, His actions fulfill all the Bible prophecies that refer to the Messiah and the return of Christ, as was proven in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Countless people have made claimed to be speaking for God but only ONE person has fulfilled all the Bible prophecies as I have demonstrated countless times on this forum. Men can lie but history and geography do not lie.

But Christians choose to ignore what it says in their own Bibles and how that matches up exactly with who Baha’u’llah was and what He did on His mission because they cannot face the fact that the same Jesus is never going to return to earth in the physical clouds the same body. That is really what this is all about, because believing in Baha’u’llah takes nothing away from Jesus, it just means that Jesus’ mission was completed on earth and Baha’u’llah came to complete the work that Jesus started, as promised in the Bible.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Bible alone proves who Baha’u’llah was, even if there was not any other evidence, although there is scads of other evidence.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
"He suddenly realizes that He was chosen by God to deliver a new message to the world".

As I said he is by no means the only man who believes he was chosen by God. This phenomena has a name.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"He suddenly realizes that He was chosen by God to deliver a new message to the world".

As I said he is by no means the only man who believes he was chosen by God. This phenomena has a name.
No, Baha'u'llah was not the only man who suddenly realized that. Here is a list of 'some' other men who suddenly realized it:

Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab.

This phenomena has a name. They are called Manifestations of God.

A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” And in like manner, the words: “Arise, O Muḥammad, for lo, the Lover and the Beloved are joined together and made one in Thee.” He similarly saith: “There is no distinction whatsoever between Thee and Them, except that They are Thy Servants.” The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
"One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself"

Can you show me where Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha and Muhammad said that they were the voice of God Himself?

God has one voice, Tb. and it is projected eternally by the Three Persons of the Trinity.

I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”

Are you saying that Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab are all God?
A kind of Heptity?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
"One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself"

Can you show me where Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha and Muhammad said that they were the voice of God Himself?
No, those are not my religions so I am not familiar with exactly what their Messengers said.
I only know that Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Voice of God.

“Attract the hearts of men, through the call of Him, the one alone Beloved. Say: This is the Voice of God, if ye do but hearken. This is the Day Spring of the Revelation of God, did ye but know it. This is the Dawning-Place of the Cause of God, were ye to recognize it. This is the Source of the commandment of God, did ye but judge it fairly. This is the manifest and hidden Secret; would that ye might perceive it. O peoples of the world! Cast away, in My name that transcendeth all other names, the things ye possess, and immerse yourselves in this Ocean in whose depths lay hidden the pearls of wisdom and of utterance, an ocean that surgeth in My name, the All-Merciful. Thus instructeth you He with Whom is the Mother Book.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 34-35


The others were Manifestations of God but I don't know what they claimed.
God has one voice, Tb. and it is projected eternally by the Three Persons of the Trinity.

I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”
You do not determine whether God has one Voice or not, or when God speaks, God determines that.
You can keep saying that and believing what you believe until the cows come home but that won't change the fact that God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus.
Are you saying that Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab are all God?
A kind of Heptity?
No, I am saying that they are Manifestations of God.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Have you heard of Professor Juan Cole, Tb?
Yes I know who he is and I know a lot about him. All Baha'is do.

What of it? Many former Christians have dropped out of Christianity, what do you think that proves?
SAT was a Christian for most of his life. Do you think that what SAT says about Jesus and the Bible are true?
Do you think that those people who dropped out of a religion are going to accurately represent that religion?
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
You do not determine whether God has one Voice or not, or when God speaks, God determines that. You can keep saying that and believing what you believe until the cows come home but that won't change the fact that God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus.
:D The problem you have, Tb, is that it is NOT a fact. To say that what you believe is a ‘fact’ is symptomatic of cultism. I say what I believe is true; you say what you believe is true. Others read this conversation and decide for themselves.
No, those are not my religions so I am not familiar with exactly what their Messengers said.
Only B. claimed to be the voice of God. Doesn’t this tell you something?
No, I am saying that they are Manifestations of God.
So can you explain this?
I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Yes I know who he is and I know a lot about him. All Baha'is do. What of it? Many former Christians have dropped out of Christianity, what do you think that proves? SAT was a Christian for most of his life. Do you think that what SAT says about Jesus and the Bible are true?
LOL! That is not a valid comparison.
Do you think that those people who dropped out of a religion are going to accurately represent that religion?
Let's see...
"The Baha’is said they believed in the unity of the world religions, the elimination of racism, the equality of women and men, and world peace — values that resonated with Juan’s own interests and convictions.

He continued, however, with his studies of Buddhism and Sufi Islam, and was always a fish out of water in the often cult-like and anti-intellectual Baha’i community. Then it gradually became apparent that whatever they privately believed about racism, they were unwilling to take a political stand, as quietists, against Apartheid.

Then it became clear that they are no more religious pluralists than Roman Catholics or Muslims, admitting partial truth in other traditions, but insisting that only in their own tradition is the fullness of the contemporary truth manifest. Then it became clear that the Baha’i authorities were not exactly pacifists. The top leadership has a secret cult-like belief in a Baha’i theocracy that will rule the world, rather on the same model as the theory of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini that Muslim clergy should replace civil governments globally.

Cole gradually lost his enthusiasm for the community and the administration. When he married outside it in 1982, he stopped going to services because his non-Baha’i wife was excluded.

He was also increasingly disturbed by the censorship practices imposed on Baha’i writers by the religion’s administration, and refused to submit to them".
Juan Cole – Bio

All untrue? I think not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The problem you have, Tb, is that it is NOT a fact. To say that what you believe is a ‘fact’ is symptomatic of cultism. I say what I believe is true; you say what you believe is true. Others read this conversation and decide for themselves.
It is a belief, not a fact, because it cannot be proven that God has ever sent any Messengers, but if God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus, He has and that is what I meant.

This has nothing to do with cultism as the Baha’i Faith is just as much a religion as is Christianity, just newer.
Only B. claimed to be the voice of God. Doesn’t this tell you something?
It tells me what I already know, that Baha’u’llah did not spend His time talking about the Messengers of past religions.
In fact, He wrote that it was a grave mistake and a grievous transgression to even mention the past.

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63


But of course He knew about them because He had the knowledge of the past.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57
So can you explain this?
I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.”
It means as follows…

The Manifestation of God speaking:
o this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am God, Himself, and God is me, Myself, except that I am that I Myself, and God is Himself.

In other words, the Manifestation of God is God and God is His Manifestation, yet they are not the same, because God is God and the Manifestation of God is His Manifestation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LOL! That is not a valid comparison.
Why not? Why do you think that Cole knows more about the Baha’i Faith than SAT knows about Christianity just because Cole had credentials? I’ll bet SAT has studied more about Christianity than Cole has studied Baha’i.
Let's see...
"The Baha’is said they believed in the unity of the world religions, the elimination of racism, the equality of women and men, and world peace — values that resonated with Juan’s own interests and convictions.

He continued, however, with his studies of Buddhism and Sufi Islam, and was always a fish out of water in the often cult-like and anti-intellectual Baha’i community. Then it gradually became apparent that whatever they privately believed about racism, they were unwilling to take a political stand, as quietists, against Apartheid.

Then it became clear that they are no more religious pluralists than Roman Catholics or Muslims, admitting partial truth in other traditions, but insisting that only in their own tradition is the fullness of the contemporary truth manifest. Then it became clear that the Baha’i authorities were not exactly pacifists. The top leadership has a secret cult-like belief in a Baha’i theocracy that will rule the world, rather on the same model as the theory of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini that Muslim clergy should replace civil governments globally.

Cole gradually lost his enthusiasm for the community and the administration. When he married outside it in 1982, he stopped going to services because his non-Baha’i wife was excluded.

He was also increasingly disturbed by the censorship practices imposed on Baha’i writers by the religion’s administration, and refused to submit to them".
Juan Cole – Bio
So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out? Many people drop out of a religion for personal reasoned and because they are disillusioned, it happens to former Christians all the time. What does that prove about Christianity? Does it prove that it is a false religion? I think not.
All untrue? I think not.
You are free to think whatever you want to. You want to believe it is true so you can believe that Baha’i Faith is what you hope it is, so obviously you take any opportunity to grab onto something negative instead of researching it for yourself to find out if it is the truth. Censorship practices? A secret cult-like belief in a Baha’i theocracy that will rule the world? I have heard those accusations before and they are people twisting the facts to make the Baha’i Faith look bad. People do the same things to Christianity, saying things like there is no proof that Jesus or the discipled existed. :rolleyes: :oops:

That that biography does not mention is that Cole was angry at the Baha’i Administration (the UHJ) because they would not consider his interpretation of the Tablet of the Maiden an authoritative translation but rather it remained a provisional translation, and that hurt his ego. However, his translation was not censored because it is free to read in the Baha’i Library Online!
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 7157675, member: 63455"]It is a belief, not a fact, because it cannot be proven that God has ever sent any Messengers, but if God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus, He has and that is what I meant.[/QUOTE]
Here’s what you said:
“That won't change the fact that God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus”. (My emphasis)
And now you say that it is NOT a fact.
***
IF God has sent other messengers besides Jesus He has.
Obviously, but then there is that 'IF';)
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Why not? Why do you think that Cole knows more about the Baha’i Faith than SAT knows about Christianity just because Cole had credentials?
Strawman. That’s not what I think.
You are free to think whatever you want to. You want to believe it is true so you can believe that Baha’i Faith is what you hope it is, so obviously you take any opportunity to grab onto something negative instead of researching it for yourself to find out if it is the truth
I presented a different opinion to yours, by someone who was also of the Baha’i Faith. This is what research entails.
And I have been doing some research, and here’s what I have found; it is not the Truth. This is what I think, and you say I am free to do so.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Cole was angry at the Baha’i Administration (the UHJ) because they would not consider his interpretation of the Tablet of the Maiden an authoritative translation but rather it remained a provisional translation, and that hurt his ego.
Will the evidence for the above be coming along shortly?
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
It tells me what I already know, that Baha’u’llah did not spend His time talking about the Messengers of past religions.
In fact, He wrote that it was a grave mistake and a grievous transgression to even mention the past.
Really? Better be careful, Tb - they'll excommunicate you!
In other words, the Manifestation of God is God and God is His Manifestation, yet they are not the same, because God is God and the Manifestation of God is His Manifestation.

B. is God
God is B.
God is God
B. is God's manifestation.

=
NON-sense.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
So you believe all that about the Baha’i Faith just Cole came to believe it before he dropped out?
Why are you assuming (falsely) that I believe it?
Many people drop out of a religion for personal reasoned and because they are disillusioned, it happens to former Christians all the time. What does that prove about Christianity? Does it prove that it is a false religion? I think not.
And I did not say that it did. You are being extraordinarily defensive, Tb. Calm down.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
[QUOTE="Trailblazer, post: 7157675, member: 63455"]It is a belief, not a fact, because it cannot be proven that God has ever sent any Messengers, but if God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus, He has and that is what I meant.
Here’s what you said:
“That won't change the fact that God has sent other Messengers besides Jesus”. (My emphasis)
And now you say that it is NOT a fact. [/quote]
Yes, now I am saying that it is not a fact because I said that in haste in the heat of the moment and you know what they say -- haste makes waste!
IF God has sent other messengers besides Jesus He has.
Obviously, but then there is that 'IF';)
If course there is an IF, and there is also an IF as to whether God sent Jesus, unless you think it is a FACT.
 
Top