jesus helped how??

[fallingblood]

60 million dead, WHOLE cities WIPED out, millions homeless...we can say for sure, that before WWII, whole cities could not be wiped out as they were in WWII because they didn't have 4 engine bombers in 2000 bc!!!!WWII wasn't the greatest destruction/killing of all???you've got to be kidding...Europeans and Asian cities WIPED out!!WHOLE CITIES!!HIROSHIMA, NAGASAKI???ok, so you agree we still have at least the SAME amount[[but we know that is wrong because of WWII]] of murder/war/killing as we did before and after christ??so he just changed the little things like less hunger???..I still see a lot of that...less murder??..no...more charity??..more homes for the homeless??...what about the tsunamis and earthquakes that destroy more homes???

You have to take other wars in context. Yes, more may have died in WWII, but you have to take that in context with the world population at the time.

However, if you look at some of the wars in the past, yes, whole cities were wiped out. They were burned to the ground, and utterly destroyed. You don't need bombs to do that.

As for rape, which you have mentioned from time to time, that is no longer part of civilized war. Sure, it happens to a point. But it did so much more in ancient times. Also, in ancient time, the losers were slaughtered, or placed into slavery on many occasions. We don't see that anymore. War has drastically changed. It's become much more civilized. If you can't see that, then you're turning a blind eye.

As for tsunamis and earthquakes, what does that have to do with anything? There weren't major disasters before? Disasters that wiped out whole cities and areas? More so, that has nothing to do with Jesus one way or another. However, what we now see is that when a major disaster does occur, the world reaches out a helping hand. You don't see that type of world wide charity in ancient times.

Homelessness? Yes, we still have that. However, for the most part, we don't think of them as untouchables. There are many programs to help them, from food shelters, and homeless shelters, as well as various other charity programs. That wasn't so in ancient times.

As for less hunger, probably.

You have to look at the evidence objectively and in context. You haven't done that yet.

And again, where does Jesus ever state things will get better worldwide? He doesn't. So the point you are trying to make is moot.

 

[BIG D]

You have to take other wars in context. Yes, more may have died in WWII, but you have to take that in context with the world population at the time.

However, if you look at some of the wars in the past, yes, whole cities were wiped out. They were burned to the ground, and utterly destroyed. You don't need bombs to do that.

As for rape, which you have mentioned from time to time, that is no longer part of civilized war. Sure, it happens to a point. But it did so much more in ancient times. Also, in ancient time, the losers were slaughtered, or placed into slavery on many occasions. We don't see that anymore. War has drastically changed. It's become much more civilized. If you can't see that, then you're turning a blind eye.

As for tsunamis and earthquakes, what does that have to do with anything? There weren't major disasters before? Disasters that wiped out whole cities and areas? More so, that has nothing to do with Jesus one way or another. However, what we now see is that when a major disaster does occur, the world reaches out a helping hand. You don't see that type of world wide charity in ancient times.

Homelessness? Yes, we still have that. However, for the most part, we don't think of them as untouchables. There are many programs to help them, from food shelters, and homeless shelters, as well as various other charity programs. That wasn't so in ancient times.

As for less hunger, probably.

You have to look at the evidence objectively and in context. You haven't done that yet.

And again, where does Jesus ever state things will get better worldwide? He doesn't. So the point you are trying to make is moot.

so --even if we take populations in context,[[which is hard, becasue 1 atom bomb destroyed a city in an instant, and it was a lot easier/faster to kill in WWII]] you sound as if the destruction/killing/rape were not as bad--or was the same level--pre-WWII??MORE people were involved in M/K/R in WWII than any other war, that's why it is called WORLD WII...rape???they still rape in Sudan, they did it in Rwanda, Serbia,etc--ancient times???..did you not read my posts???the Holocaust, Rwanda, Serbia, Sudan, etc....those are all genocides....not to mention Cambodia in the mid 70s..and we're not even talking about the murders and rapes that go on outside of wars....and the hate/beatings/anger/etc...we can't tell for sure about pre-christ killing, but we can say for sure WWII,WWI US Civil War, Vienam CW, Korean CW, wars,wars,wars all the time<>there has been just as much killing--of course we CAN say MORE<>ATOM BOMB,HOLOCAUST..let's be real here...are you trying to say the killing[[and we will take the population]] and rape were not as great in WWII as pre christ????the Japanese, Germans, Russians, Americans, etc raped and killed during WWII...SIXTY million dead!..kind of hard to believe there was a greater rape/killing...

 

[BIG D]

you don't see that type of charity because you didn't have the internet, transportation network, media, c-130 cargo planes, etc back then...hard to equate your analogy there...but we see just as much--of course, really, MORE--killing

 

[fallingblood]

so --even if we take populations in context,[[which is hard, becasue 1 atom bomb destroyed a city in an instant, and it was a lot easier/faster to kill in WWII]] you sound as if the destruction/killing/rape were not as bad--or was the same level--pre-WWII??MORE people were involved in M/K/R in WWII than any other war, that's why it is called WORLD WII...rape???they still rape in Sudan, they did it in Rwanda, Serbia,etc--ancient times???..did you not read my posts???the Holocaust, Rwanda, Serbia, Sudan, etc....those are all genocides....not to mention Cambodia in the mid 70s..and we're not even talking about the murders and rapes that go on outside of wars....and the hate/beatings/anger/etc...we can't tell for sure about pre-christ killing, but we can say for sure WWII,WWI US Civil War, Vienam CW, Korean CW, wars,wars,wars all the time<>there has been just as much killing--of course we CAN say MORE<>ATOM BOMB,HOLOCAUST..let's be real here...are you trying to say the killing[[and we will take the population]] and rape were not as great in WWII as pre christ????the Japanese, Germans, Russians, Americans, etc raped and killed during WWII...SIXTY million dead!..kind of hard to believe there was a greater rape/killing...

All you have is WWII. That is your entire argument. WWII and not addressing the other points. As in, you dismiss them based on faulty logic. More so, you've proved nothing. You haven't supported your idea at all.


And again, can you explain why things should be different after Jesus? Can you point at any verse that says everything will be peaceful? I doubt it because Jesus says the opposite.

 

[Blackdog22]

Jesus brought the Gospel to humanity which saves those who believe from any pain or torment in the afterlife. This life is only a test, and wide is the road to destruction; many will not pass- so the fact that lawlessness is abundant is expected (Matt 24:12).

Also in the natural, God brings humility to His people and gives them a mandate to give to the poor and help the needy. In Western nations the homeless shelters and food for the poor programs are majority Christian. There are also countless Christian ministries which aid to the hurting worldwide- including third world countries. This type of selflessness is a reflection of the love of Christ.

This isn't a trait unique to followers of Jesus, so the idea that it is something that is given by Christ or is a result of Christ doesn't hold.

Bill Gates gives 10 billion a year to Charity, guess what, he is an Atheist who has no interest in Jesus, doesn't follow him, hasnt asked him into his heart, rejects Jesus, and yet.. somehow.. he is able to give selflessly.

Jesus appears to of done nothing for us at all. We used to be forced to sacrifice animals to a being we couldn't comfirm and now we are asked to believe in a sacrifice from a being that we still can't comfirm. Nothing changed, orginal sin is still in the world. Jesus died for no sins because it is all around us. It all is easily debunked from a literal perspective. Unfortunately most people think the Bible is a metaphor for God only knows what, because I have yet to hear what it is a metaphor for.

 

[Blackdog22]

So since there is still murder, rape, and robbery, that is your definition that things haven't changed? You don't even care to address the other aspects that I mentioned?

Do the strongest powers in the world issue nation wide persecutions? Not at all. Do the strongest powers on earth go on brutal wars that involve entire countries? Not at all. Sure, there have been a few occasions, but on a global scale, it has drastically when down.

You continue to ignore where I have said things have occurred. So my only conclusion is that you want to make a baseless attack against Jesus and thus Christianity.

Would you give the idea of a speed lmit to Jesus' credit because it happened after he died? People evolve, nukes get made, people get less ballsy. I would say the idea that we aren't nuking each other has much less to do with Jesus and much more to do with the preservation of the world.

More so, where does Jesus ever state that everything is going to change? He doesn't.

So why do you think he came? To say hey? I mean saying hey is cool and all, but he should try saying hey to the rest of the world instead of 12 dudes and some stragglers.

Also, the whole sin thing that defeated Satan, or hurt Satan, or whatever the hell supposedly happened, I believe that was the change everyone is referring to. This death for sin proved to provide nothing of help or importance to the world as we know it however, which is dissapointed.

 

[fallingblood]

Would you give the idea of a speed lmit to Jesus' credit because it happened after he died? People evolve, nukes get made, people get less ballsy. I would say the idea that we aren't nuking each other has much less to do with Jesus and much more to do with the preservation of the world.

You make a great point. And I wouldn't credit the change in the world at all to Jesus. However, I do believe that there has been a great change over 2,000 years. So I don't see how BigD can deny that. Even in the last 10 years, there has been quite a change.

So why do you think he came? To say hey? I mean saying hey is cool and all, but he should try saying hey to the rest of the world instead of 12 dudes and some stragglers.

Also, the whole sin thing that defeated Satan, or hurt Satan, or whatever the hell supposedly happened, I believe that was the change everyone is referring to. This death for sin proved to provide nothing of help or importance to the world as we know it however, which is dissapointed.

Now, I'm not a Christian. However, from a Christian perspective, it wasn't to bring peace on earth, but salvation. And not salvation for this world, but the next.

The NT states clearly that things are going to get worse. Jesus talks about his followers and how they will be persecuted. So he did not believe he was going to bring peace. And that isn't an idea that his followers taught. So I don't see why anything should really have changed after him accept on personal levels.

 

[Blackdog22]

I agree with you Fallingblood. I wouldn't say the world was better immediately after Jesus or even within the first 1000 or more years, but we are at a better place now then we were before, I would agree with that.

As far as Jesus bringing salvation for another life, that is a valid conclusion that some christians come too. Of course a whole topic could be formed and discussed around that.

Also your right, the NT does speak of eventual horrors leading up to Armagheddon. It could be said that Jesus actually brought us closer to the end of the world and brought us closer to an eventual nightmare. Of course that depends on if your a christian or not.

 

[outhouse]

with all the christmas music going on, I had to ask again, how did jesus help???the world/humans has/have not changed at all

Im not sure he ever helped anything at all.

religion has been an excuse for control of the masses and murder and is the leader in ignorant thinking since it began in my opinion.

They used to murder you if you didnt like what was in the bible lol

In the name of jesus and the cross south america was trashed by the christians.

today you only have priest abusing little children and murdering abortion doctors and creationist trying to drag humanity down.

my largest problem is the churches stance on conterceptives, in poor countries like parts of africa where overpopulation and aids it is a killer of millions.

I beleive the bible was written for ancient man for that particular period in time. The fact it made it this far is a testiment to its brilliance in authorship and mans needs to belong to something bigger then himself.

 

[BIG D]

All you have is WWII. That is your entire argument. WWII and not addressing the other points. As in, you dismiss them based on faulty logic. More so, you've proved nothing. You haven't supported your idea at all.


And again, can you explain why things should be different after Jesus? Can you point at any verse that says everything will be peaceful? I doubt it because Jesus says the opposite.

did you not read my posts??not just WWII<>all OTHER WARS/GENOCIDES/RAPES/ETC--ALL THE TIME--so, no one can deny jesus has not stopped wars/rape/murder, correct??--and, that's my point<<>what did jesus change?yes, YES, so, he said it would not be peaceful, why did he come??what exactly did he change?or are you really saying his purpose was not to change things??

 

[BIG D]

Im not sure he ever helped anything at all.

religion has been an excuse for control of the masses and murder and is the leader in ignorant thinking since it began in my opinion.

They used to murder you if you didnt like what was in the bible lol

In the name of jesus and the cross south america was trashed by the christians.

today you only have priest abusing little children and murdering abortion doctors and creationist trying to drag humanity down.

my largest problem is the churches stance on conterceptives, in poor countries like parts of africa where overpopulation and aids it is a killer of millions.

I beleive the bible was written for ancient man for that particular period in time. The fact it made it this far is a testiment to its brilliance in authorship and mans needs to belong to something bigger then himself.

I agree, and it's just not a ''few'' priests..

 

[BIG D]

All you have is WWII. That is your entire argument. WWII and not addressing the other points. As in, you dismiss them based on faulty logic. More so, you've proved nothing. You haven't supported your idea at all.


And again, can you explain why things should be different after Jesus? Can you point at any verse that says everything will be peaceful? I doubt it because Jesus says the opposite.

my main point on WWII is the destruction/killing/rape/murder UNDENIABLY went to a higher level AFTER jesus....so, he did not stop/lesson these 'evils'

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

The Old Testament says that when the Messiah came, he would bring about an era of world peace, and reunite Israel. When Jesus came, neither of these things were accomplished, and he specifically denied the first one. So, the Bible disagrees on what the mission of the messiah would be. Did Jesus change things, worldwide? No. But, the problem runs deeper. I don't know any percentages, but some of the world's problems are caused by those who claim to be followers of Jesus. And they use the verse that says "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" as justification.

 

[fallingblood]

did you not read my posts??not just WWII<>all OTHER WARS/GENOCIDES/RAPES/ETC--ALL THE TIME--so, no one can deny jesus has not stopped wars/rape/murder, correct??--and, that's my point<<>what did jesus change?yes, YES, so, he said it would not be peaceful, why did he come??what exactly did he change?or are you really saying his purpose was not to change things??

No one was denying that Jesus did not stop war and the like. No one denied that.

Jesus never said he would changed the physical world. He never said the he would bring peace to the world. So again, your point is moot.

What did he come for? According to Christians, he came to bring salvation. So the change would only really effect the after life, not this life.

 

[fallingblood]

my main point on WWII is the destruction/killing/rape/murder UNDENIABLY went to a higher level AFTER jesus....so, he did not stop/lesson these 'evils'

And he never claimed that he would. I would also like to see evidence that rape, destruction, and murder were at a higher level for WWII than any previous war, and I mean in context.

Comparing WWII with ancient wars makes very little sense unless you take both of them in a historic context.

 

[BIG D]

No one was denying that Jesus did not stop war and the like. No one denied that.

Jesus never said he would changed the physical world. He never said the he would bring peace to the world. So again, your point is moot.

What did he come for? According to Christians, he came to bring salvation. So the change would only really effect the after life, not this life.

that's all I'm asking for--so, he really hasn't helped ''this'' world...

 

[BIG D]

And he never claimed that he would. I would also like to see evidence that rape, destruction, and murder were at a higher level for WWII than any previous war, and I mean in context.

Comparing WWII with ancient wars makes very little sense unless you take both of them in a historic context.

with the ''world'' at war, [[need I state the countries involved?]] it's hard to believe there could have been greater M/K/R in any other war...rape, MAYBE, maybe again, but killing and destruction??? O my,,for 1 the atom bomb destroyed 2 whole cities in an instant...all the major German and Japanese cities were wrecked..English cities bombed...China, France, Holland, etc etc....there is NO WAY the destruction could've been higher...they didn't have 4 engine bombers and the amount of arty pre-WWII---land, sea, and air fronts..Africa, France, Eastfront, Pacific, Asia, etc etc..60 million, 10 of those Russian only..

 

[fallingblood]

that's all I'm asking for--so, he really hasn't helped ''this'' world...

He has helped individual people. So what was the point of your thread? To show that Jesus didn't do something that he didn't claim to be doing? That is no surprise.

 

[fallingblood]

with the ''world'' at war, [[need I state the countries involved?]] it's hard to believe there could have been greater M/K/R in any other war...rape, MAYBE, maybe again, but killing and destruction??? O my,,for 1 the atom bomb destroyed 2 whole cities in an instant...all the major German and Japanese cities were wrecked..English cities bombed...China, France, Holland, etc etc....there is NO WAY the destruction could've been higher...they didn't have 4 engine bombers and the amount of arty pre-WWII---land, sea, and air fronts..Africa, France, Eastfront, Pacific, Asia, etc etc..60 million, 10 of those Russian only..

You still haven't proven this. Maybe if you talk about a formal war. However, that would not be justified in this case. Look at the Persian military campaigns that conquered most of the known world. The Egyptian campaigns. The Roman campaigns, etc. Whole cities were destroyed in many cases there. The land itself was destroyed in many cases.

Sure, they didn't have bombs, but that is besides the point. Instead of being able to fight wars from a distance, they were required to, for the most part, fight hand to hand. The casualties were much higher in percentage wise.

Yes, 60 million were killed. However, have you considered just how many more people were living? That is a big factor.

 

[waitasec]

The Old Testament says that when the Messiah came, he would bring about an era of world peace, and reunite Israel. When Jesus came, neither of these things were accomplished, and he specifically denied the first one. So, the Bible disagrees on what the mission of the messiah would be. Did Jesus change things, worldwide? No. But, the problem runs deeper. I don't know any percentages, but some of the world's problems are caused by those who claim to be followers of Jesus. And they use the verse that says "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" as justification.

i wouldn't single out jesus (christianity), but since that is the topic of this thread i wholeheartedly agree....