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Jesus in Quran.
- Thread starter Joseph Stephen
- Start date
Andywelikandy
Member
My point is that Jesus was killed on a Roman cross and He came back to life on the 3rd day as He said He would. This is proved to be true thru' the writings of non-christian historians.
Now as given in the Koran the Christians THOUGHT that He was killed because Allah made it to appear like that it means that Allah DECEIVED some human beings, including holy mother Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. In this Allah becomes a deceiver of the most holy woman in the Koran and besides Allah deceived also all the relatives of Jesus Christ and all His good friends and His followers. Do Muslims want to label their god as an arch-deceiver?
If yes, I am all for it!
Last edited:
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I would like you to give me a logical reason to believe the Koran on this matter. I have always heard the charge that "the gospels have been corrupted". But I have never heard anyone give any rational reason how they were. I have heard you quote the gospels numerous times so I wonder how do you distinguish which statements are valid and which ones aren't?I don't like to see disagreements, let us try to resolve it lol
The Koran came over 600 years after the fact so why should I logically believe its claim? Also, I have heard you say that the Torah was changed as well. I would like for you to show me exactly what you believe was corrupted. Thanks my friend.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
No, you haven't shown that .. where in your refs. does it say that anybody saw Jesus die on the cross? I didn't read that..
How do you know that Jesus, peace be with him, 'came back to life' ? How do you know that somebody didn't rescue him after dark, for example?
No .. Almighty God does not deceive .. it is mankind (and the devil) that deceives!
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
(4:157 Pickthall)
The above does not say that Almighty God deceived anyone! It says that they THOUGHT that they had (killed him)
Andywelikandy
Member
First of all the Holy Scriptures of the Christians (the Bible) has both the New Testament (NT) and the Tanach (OT). We Born Again Christians pay equal attention to both OT and NT. Saints like Paul, Peter, James etc, etc, believed both OT and NT as having been given to mankind by the Holy Spirit of Almighty God, the Creator of the universe and of mankind.
If some dishonest person had changed the words in the OT, the fraud would have been caught by the Christians who studied both NT and OT.
Now, the question is this: How could anybody change words in the OT without being EXPOSED by the Christians? The Tanach (OT) is loved by Christians just as much as the NT is loved by them. So any attempt to change anything at all in the OT would be very disasterous to anybody who tried to change it. There is absolutely no record in any history book that there was any attempt to change words in the OT.
Another point is this and is major: Any attempt to change the OT or the NT had to have happened after the Quran came to the world and that was 600 years after the Holy Bible (NT plus OT) came into existence. Nobody other than Muslims would WANT to change the words of the Bible. W
Why do Muslims want to change the Bible? Because they WANT to prove that the words of Mohammed are the words of Allah. The words of Mohammed in the Quran (recitations of Mohammed) are at odds with the words in the Bible. So, in order to prove that the OT and the NT are NOT the words of Almighty God, the Islamic solution is to discredit the whole Bible.
Here's another big question: How did anybody collect all the OT's and the NT's of the whole world in order to change words? How did they erase words and write different words in the erased areas? Remember that the OT and NT were available in many languages like Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek to name just three.
To state that the words and passages of the OT and the NT were corrupted is nothing short of lunacy.
Andywelikandy
Member
I don't like to see disagreements, let us try to resolve it lol
If Allah made every living thing out of water, how come that Allah made Adam out of the dust (soil) of the earth. Soil is not water. The soil was SHAPED into the form of Adam first and then the lump of soil was given life. How could water be shaped unless the form of Adam was first carved into the ground and then filled with water to take that form. There is no such story in the making of Adam. Adam was not created from nothing. He was made from material that was already created from n othing by Almighty God.
Genesis 2: 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust [soil] of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Andywelikandy
Member
No, you haven't shown that .. where in your refs. does it say that anybody saw Jesus die on the cross? I didn't read that..
How do you know that Jesus, peace be with him, 'came back to life' ? How do you know that somebody didn't rescue him after dark, for example?
No .. Almighty God does not deceive .. it is mankind (and the devil) that deceives!
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
(4:157 Pickthall)
The above does not say that Almighty God deceived anyone! It says that they THOUGHT that they had (killed him)
Please read this extract from what I already showed:
“ On the eve of the Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because He has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf. But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he (Jesus) was hanged on the even of the Passover.”
The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a
LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
a Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.
“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account
Pastek
Sunni muslim
He was not a christian. I don't think he was a "hanif" like Abraham, but maybe more like Abraham before he believed in God.
Meaning he wasn't a polytheist neither a monotheist but was spiritual.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Firstly, it doesn't say that these persons witnessed it ..
Secondly, somebody speaking of possible 'hearsay' 100 years later doesn't prove anything..
..Anyhow, I've made my point (and you yours), and we'll leave it that, shall we..
Just a reminder that this is a DIR and non-Muslims are allowed only to ask respectable questions. If you wish to challenge ideas then you can start a thread either in the discussion or debating area.
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Sabour
Well-Known Member
Well a logical reason I would give you will mean nothing at the moment because it will take time for you to verify it if you were interested. I believe the Quraan on that matter because it is proven to me that Quraan is the Word of God. That being the case, there are things that I believe even though if there were no explanations. It is said in the Quraan that it was made to appear that he was crucified. So I take that. Anything I would provide you with would be me trying to explain it which may be false.
As for the bible's corruption it is because of people's interests that it is corrupted. For example, if we were to buy a bible, there are many versions and no version is the similar to the other. When talking about differences between versions, we will be talking about books added and omitted and not only verses. Another thing is that the language of the bible is a dead language. Third, the Quraan (verses and Chapters) for example has always been in the hands of the people unlike the bible.
I quote the bible and choose what is right and what is wrong based on my knowledge from the Quraan. Jesus and Moses peace be upon them were both prophets in Islam and the Injeel and the Torah were both revelations from God. However they are not what we know today as the bible.
Examples of what I believe is corrupted in the Torah are story of Noah and Lut peace be upon them. I believe their stories are twisted.
Sabour
Well-Known Member
If I told you that bread is made from wheat and than I told you bread is made from flour, am I contradicting my self?
seeking4truth
Active Member
The important point is 'as' Jonah was in the belly of the fish 'so' shall....
ie. Alive not dead.
seeking4truth
Active Member
Religious texts in the past were indeed very precious documents. They were treasured and protected not least because they were not available to everyone, were produced by hand. Most people could not read and went to the places of worship to hear and learn what was written in the texts.
You are right the authorities in the Roman church did not have all the documents. They did have a much larger number than are present today in the Bible. There is a wide collection of books which someone decided(Council of NIcea??) should not be included in the Biblical Cannon because they did not support the views held by the church as it was at the time.
Biblical apocrypha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
More Old Testament Pseudepigrapha | School of Divinity, University of St Andrews
The value of the Dead Sea Scrolls is that we know they have not been tampered with from the time of the Jewish revolt when they were hidden to 1947 when they were discovered. Whether all the texts discovered have been made public only the Fathers of the Catholic church who found them can tell us.
This process of selection of ideas is still going on today.
Only last week in the UK the church decided that women can now be Bishops.
Someone has now decided that homosexuality is not to be condemned.
Will future Christian think this has always been the teachings of the church?
seeking4truth
Active Member
1."He has been PRESERVING the Jewish race from the time of Father Abraham up to our day. That's over 4000 yrs of Jewish lineage, unmatched by any other human race on this planet."
Have you forgotten that the Arabs are also Abraham's descendants from his older son Ishmael?
2. "The whole Book of Isaiah in the DSS is intact so much so that when it is compared with what is available today in our KJV Bibles, there is absolutely no corruption to find."
The whole of it! Are you sure? Have you heard of Deutero -Isaiah?
Introduction to The Study of the Book of Isaiah | Bible.org
THE HEBREW TEXT
There are about twelve fragments of Isaiah in the Qumran scrolls, the main one being 1QIsaa(Qumran, cave 1, Isaiah scroll A). This scroll is dated about 200-175 (early second century B.C.) by Birnbaum, which is supported by the study of other Isaiah scripts and from paleography. Since the Masoretic Text was finalized around 900 A.D.,2 one can see the importance of these early scrolls. In studying the material, Orlinsky concluded that the Qumran scroll of Isaiah was closer to the MT of Isaiah than to its contemporary Greek version of the book (the so-called Septuagint, abbreviated LXX3). Millar Burroughs notes that there are thirteen major variants from MT in 1QIsaA, but many of them are wrong and should be rejected in favor of the MT readings.4
The scroll 1QIsab is the Hebrew University manuscript of Isaiah. It covers from chapter 38 to the end of the book, with a few gaps, and other fragments. This manuscript is even closer to the MT. It dates from before 70 A.D. at least. It appears also to have been corrected to bring it into conformity to the MT.
Editing has always gone on.
seeking4truth
Active Member
Jonah 1:17
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.[/QUOTE]
Again I say the message is that Jonah was ALIVE in the fish as Jesus was in the tomb. As Jonah continued his task and conveyed the message from God to his people so did Jesus.
Another point that may or may not be relevant is the 3 days and 3 nights.
Is Friday noon to Sunday early morning three days and 3 nights?
Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.[/QUOTE]
Again I say the message is that Jonah was ALIVE in the fish as Jesus was in the tomb. As Jonah continued his task and conveyed the message from God to his people so did Jesus.
Another point that may or may not be relevant is the 3 days and 3 nights.
Is Friday noon to Sunday early morning three days and 3 nights?
seeking4truth
Active Member
Do you believe this literally?
My understanding is that God made Adam of natural elements as the whole earth is made of natural elements from which Adam evolved in due time.
Earth to earth and dust to dust as they say.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
That's correct ie. material .. as opposed to the angels who are made of light (energy)
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seeking4truth
Active Member
I'm afraid my understanding is completely different from yours. I do believe in a Creator who has created everything in accordance with the requirements of wisdom. I believe that Adam was the first human to reach a level of development that enabled God to communicate with him directly. ie. he was the first prophet - not literally the first man.
eg.Genesis ch.4. v 14-15
In fact if you read the Bible the son of Adam went off and married someone else not of Adam's people Genesis ch.4 v.17
Please can you also explain what Genesis ch.6 v.1-2 and v.4 means if you take things literally?