Jesus is all that really matters

[QuestioningMind]

Then it’s not belief, it’s knowledge.

It's belief based upon knowledge.

 

[sojourner]

It's belief based upon knowledge.

It’s belief based on fact. What about intuitive knowledge? What about the stuff that can’t be quantified? Like love? Do you believe in love? Can’t be proven, because it can’t be quantified. No evidence. Because whatever “evidence” exists could be faked. Happens all the time. Do you believe in love?

 

[QuestioningMind]

It’s belief based on fact. What about intuitive knowledge? What about the stuff that can’t be quantified? Like love? Do you believe in love? Can’t be proven, because it can’t be quantified. No evidence. Because whatever “evidence” exists could be faked. Happens all the time. Do you believe in love?

I believe in love in the exact same way that I believe in the color orange. There is a color out there that I define as orange. Other people tell me that they also see a color that they define as orange. We can exchange information about this color. Is it a warm color or a cold color? Is THIS orange? Is this a darker shade of orange or a lighter shade of orange? But of course I will never know for certain that what I perceive as orange is the exact same as what anyone else perceives as orange, because it's a completely subjective experience. Yet I do have evidence that a color orange does exist.

The exact same can be said about the emotion love.

 

[sojourner]

I believe in love in the exact same way that I believe in the color orange. There is a color out there that I define as orange. Other people tell me that they also see a color that they define as orange. We can exchange information about this color. Is it a warm color or a cold color? Is THIS orange? Is this a darker shade of orange or a lighter shade of orange? But of course I will never know for certain that what I perceive as orange is the exact same as what anyone else perceives as orange, because it's a completely subjective experience. Yet I do have evidence that a color orange does exist.

The exact same can be said about the emotion love.

Can it? How? How can that “evidence” be verified with any level of assurance? Are you just taking peoples’ word for it? That’s not “evidence.” That’s “trust.”

 

[QuestioningMind]

Can it? How? How can that “evidence” be verified with any level of assurance? Are you just taking peoples’ word for it? That’s not “evidence.” That’s “trust.”

So you don't believe in the color orange? I can verify that other people see a color that they define as orange. I can verify that other people experience an emotion that they define as love. I can verify certain qualities about what other people define as the color orange. I can verify certain qualities that other people define as the emotion love. Can I ever verify that what I see as orange is the exact same thing that other people see as orange? Nope, because it's a completely subjective experience. But I can be reasonably certain that people are seeing a distinct color when they point to orange. Can I ever verify that what I feel as the emotion love is the exact same as what other people feel when they experience what they call love? Nope, because it's a completely subjective experience. But I can be reasonably certain that people are feelings a distinct emotion that they define as love.

Thus I have evidence that the color orange and the emotion love do exist.

 

[sojourner]

So you don't believe in the color orange? I can verify that other people see a color that they define as orange. I can verify that other people experience an emotion that they define as love. I can verify certain qualities about what other people define as the color orange. I can verify certain qualities that other people define as the emotion love. Can I ever verify that what I see as orange is the exact same thing that other people see as orange? Nope, because it's a completely subjective experience. But I can be reasonably certain that people are seeing a distinct color when they point to orange. Can I ever verify that what I feel as the emotion love is the exact same as what other people feel when they experience what they call love? Nope, because it's a completely subjective experience. But I can be reasonably certain that people are feelings a distinct emotion that they define as love.

Thus I have evidence that the color orange and the emotion love do exist.

That wasn’t my question. Yes, love exists. My question was different. To wit: How do you know that someone really loves you — or loves someone else? You don’t. You don’t know that, just because someone tells you — or even because you “feel” that they do. People lie about love all the time. That’s not evidence.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That wasn’t my question. Yes, love exists. My question was different. To wit: How do you know that someone really loves you — or loves someone else? You don’t. You don’t know that, just because someone tells you — or even because you “feel” that they do. People lie about love all the time. That’s not evidence.

Actions speak louder than words and actions can certainly be evidence.

 

[sojourner]

Actions speak louder than words and actions can certainly be evidence.

Actions, though, also often deceive. I still think, at some point, “evidence,” being objective, is not equal to the task of an endeavor that is, ultimately, subjective in nature.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Actions, though, also often deceive. I still think, at some point, “evidence,” being objective, is not equal to the task of an endeavor that is, ultimately, subjective in nature.

And your point is? None of that changes the fact that I still require verifiable evidence before I'm willing to believe that something is true.

 

[sojourner]

And your point is? None of that changes the fact that I still require verifiable evidence before I'm willing to believe that something is true.

You believe love is true, even though you have no verifiable evidence.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You believe love is true, even though you have no verifiable evidence.

Yes, I do. Just like I believe that the color orange exists. We already agreed that both the color orange and the emotion love exist. Can I have verifiable evidence that someone loves me? Yes, I can. Their actions can very clearly demonstrate their love for me. Again, what's your point?

 

[sojourner]

Yes, I do. Just like I believe that the color orange exists. We already agreed that both the color orange and the emotion love exist. Can I have verifiable evidence that someone loves me? Yes, I can. Their actions can very clearly demonstrate their love for me. Again, what's your point?

The point is, you don’t have verifiable evidence that someone loves you. Actions are faked all the time. People go through the motions without feeling the emotion. That’s why the divorce rate is over 50%. People lie about their feelings, they cheat on the sly. At the end of the day, all you have is trust, not verifiable evidence. Yet, you believe love exists. So your claim is false. “Orange” And “Love” are two different things. Orange can’t lie about what it is. Love can be masqueraded. And it is — all the time.

 

[74x12]

The words are there. Nothing more is required than to read them. What is the reader, contemplating eg John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”, supposed to conclude the author meant? It has Jesus saying that (a) there is one true God, and (b) Jesus is not that true God, but someone else ─ doesn't it?

That doesn't show anything but what the author said. It doesn't establish that an historical Jesus existed, or that if he did, he was really an agent of the Jewish god.

You're arguing from an atheistic perspective. It's nothing personal, but I currently see no reason to debate theology from the holy scriptures that are spiritually understood with someone who sees them as nothing but foolishness.

 

[blü 2]

You're arguing from an atheistic perspective. It's nothing personal, but I currently see no reason to debate theology from the holy scriptures that are spiritually understood with someone who sees them as nothing but foolishness.

I'm arguing from the perspective that documents have a meaning that can be determined by reasoned enquiry; and that, while this may not exclude some alternative possibilities, it may clearly exclude others.

If the texts attribute statements in direct speech to Jesus about some topic on not fewer than sixteen occasions, and all without contradiction, then we can determine something about what the authors of those texts were trying to communicate.

So, as I said, my argument is not with beliefs to the contrary ─ people are free to believe as pleases them. My argument is with calling those texts in aid of beliefs to the contrary.

 

[blü 2]

I believe in love in the exact same way that I believe in the color orange. There is a color out there that I define as orange.

Orange is the way your brain interprets nerve signals from your eye triggered by light in the wavelength range 620 to 585 nm, more or less. Color perception, in other words, is physical and definable. That's why the word 'orange' means the same thing to the very large majority of people.

The word love covers a range of emotions, desires, motivations and behaviors, but they all arise from the biochemistry, mainly hormonal, of the body. If no hormones then no emotions, desires, motivations, behaviors. This has been the subject of considerable research ─ just google eg 'biochemistry of love'.

May not sound very romantic, but understanding of the underlying processes won't stop anyone from loving.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The point is, you don’t have verifiable evidence that someone loves you. Actions are faked all the time. People go through the motions without feeling the emotion. That’s why the divorce rate is over 50%. People lie about their feelings, they cheat on the sly. At the end of the day, all you have is trust, not verifiable evidence. Yet, you believe love exists. So your claim is false. “Orange” And “Love” are two different things. Orange can’t lie about what it is. Love can be masqueraded. And it is — all the time.

Speak for yourself. YOU may not have any verifiable evidence that anyone loves YOU, but I have plenty of verifiable evidence that there are people in my life who love ME. The evidence is in their behavior and their actions. Can a person's feelings of love change? Absolutely! That's why half a marriages don't last. I have TRUST based on VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE. Can people lie about feeling love? Sure they can. But the fact that people can lie about being in love doesn't mean that love doesn't exist. A person could ALSO lie about seeing orange when they really see blue. But again, that doesn't mean that the color orange doesn't exist.

Not sure why this concept is so hard for you to grasp.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Orange is the way your brain interprets nerve signals from your eye triggered by light in the wavelength range 620 to 585 nm, more or less. Color perception, in other words, is physical and definable. That's why the word 'orange' means the same thing to the very large majority of people.

The word love covers a range of emotions, desires, motivations and behaviors, but they all arise from the biochemistry, mainly hormonal, of the body. If no hormones then no emotions, desires, motivations, behaviors. This has been the subject of considerable research ─ just google eg 'biochemistry of love'.

May not sound very romantic, but understanding of the underlying processes won't stop anyone from loving.

And if love is the product of biochemistry of the body, then it TOO is physical and definable.

 

[blü 2]

And if love is the product of biochemistry of the body, then it TOO is physical and definable.

Just so. The outline of its evolutionary function is not hard to understand either.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

He's all our sufficiency,
All our Grace
All our Power
All our Strength
All our Righteousness
All our Peace
All our Love
All our Light

No wonder we can win this fight called life. Excuse me, I'm very euphoric because the love of God. If any Christians find it hard to pray then it may be a demon putting a mental block in your mind to keep you from blessing that day. Rebuke it in Jesus name and ask God to feel you with His love for others. Demons may also try to make difficult rules to follow when you pray; to discourage you. Just start praying. No difficult rules for yourself. No discouragement. No feelings of inadequacy because Jesus is all our sufficiency.

Been there. Done that. Turns out prayers doesn't pay for food, clothing, housing, and relaxation. But hey maybe I'm not praying hard enough.

 

[AlertChristians]

Holy Bible - Matthew 13:36-43
Jesus Christ has told us in the explanation of the parable of the wheat and tares (or weeds), that the evil one (Satan) has sons (tares or weeds) in the world.

The sons of the Devil will burn in Hell.

Only the righteous will have eternal life in the kingdom of God.