Jesus is God?

[Dirty Penguin]

God. The answer is at the end of the passage.

The Son of God is the Word made manifest, the express image of God, but not God himself.

I agree. The NT shows that God's (WORD).....has been given to Yeshua to give to man. Yeshua was the physical representation of God's word.......but so was Moses, Abraham and the rest.....

In the case of Yeshua not only do we get this confirmation from John (The Baptist) but we get it from Yeshua himself.

John 3:34 (From John - The Baptist)
For he whom God has sent speaks the words of God: for God gives not the Spirit by measure unto him.

John 17:4 and 17:14 (From Yeshua - His prayer to his god)
I have glorified you on the earth: I have finished the work which you gave me to do.

I have given them your word; and the world has hated them (God's word) because they (God's word - not Yeshua or Yeshua's word) are not of the world, even as I (Yeshua) am not of the world.

So I do agree with the statement of John 1:14 but not the way trinitarians do. God made manifest (brought forth) his "word" (doctrine) through Yeshua and Yeshua's task was to deliver the word of God to the people (lost sheep).

This is why Yeshua said;

John 7:16
Jesus answered them and said, “my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 12:49
I don't speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me gave me his own instructions as to what I should say.


I'm not sure why most insist on looking beyond these statements.....or maybe it's just How they interpret them.......

 

[justifyothers]

And don"t forget.....
"Hear, Oh Isreal, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one." Duet 6:4

The Hebrew word used here for "one" is echad, meaning quite simply: one.
There is another word used to denote three

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And don"t forget.....
"Hear, Oh Isreal, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one." Duet 6:4

The Hebrew word used here for "one" is echad, meaning quite simply: one.
There is another word used to denote three

I agree......

 

[deelo505]

God. The answer is at the end of the passage.

The Son of God is the Word made manifest, the express image of God, but not God himself.

Remember that Jesus is the only begotten (born) Son of God.
God gave birth to his Son.
And since there is no Mrs. God, then the Son is going to come out looking EXACTLY like his Father, since no other material than God material was there in the first place.

if this is what this passage means then why must the watchtower change john1:1 to "a" God and not just God.it was changed for a reason becuase the article a grammatically in greek doesnt fit.
The eternal Word, who was to be made man (John 1:14), is God (not merely "a god" as some have alleged)

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

john is speaking of jesus. and if he wasnt God how did he create everything?
Jesus Christ certainly is not a created being--not even the first created being--as many have argued, for the obvious reason that He Himself is the Creator of all things in heaven and earth, material and spiritual, visible or invisible. Only God can create, and God did not create Himself (John 1:1-3; Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:3)

 

[Popeyesays]

"The same was in the beginning with God.1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

him is the pronoun twice and the noun to which it refers is God. So by the rules of grammar you're wrong.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Michel07]

And don"t forget.....
"Hear, Oh Isreal, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one." Duet 6:4

The Hebrew word used here for "one" is echad, meaning quite simply: one.
There is another word used to denote three

Gen 1 , 26
Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Isaiah 6, 3

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts!.

Isaiah 48, 16
Come near to me and hear this!
Not from the beginning did I speak it in secret;
" Now the Lord, God has sent me,
and his spirit.

Matthew 28, 19

Go ,therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father,and of the Son, and of the
holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
that I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always until the end of the age.

1 John 5, 7

So there are three that testify,

 

[Popeyesays]

Gen 1 , 26
Then God said: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Isaiah 6, 3

Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts!.

Isaiah 48, 16
Come near to me and hear this!
Not from the beginning did I speak it in secret;
" Now the Lord, God has sent me,
and his spirit.

Matthew 28, 19

Go ,therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father,and of the Son, and of the
holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
that I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always until the end of the age.

1 John 5, 7

So there are three that testify,

I don't think that amounts to testimony as you would like to thin it might.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Matthew 28, 19

Go ,therefore, and make disciples
of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father,and of the Son, and of the
holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all
that I have commanded you. And behold,
I am with you always until the end of the age.

Still quoting this one I see.....

1 John 5, 7

Been removed from the bible already and regarded as an interpolation...

 

[Michel07]

Been removed from the bible already and regarded as an interpolation...

What Bible are you using?

 

[Michel07]

I don't think that amounts to testimony as you would like to thin it might.

Regards,
Scott

If it is truth it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks does it?

Very nice and polite end to your comments though.I applaud you on that.

Regards, Michel

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What Bible are you using?

It does not appear in the RSV. The 32 (Christian) scholars did not find that verse in the earliest of manuscripts so it has been removed. They (These Christian scholars) were backed by 50 (Cooperating Denominations). I think it's great when scholars, christians might I add, get together and realize that the text they have are not what they appeared to be thus they are willing to make "corrections".....

Additionally, I have shown, that early church leaders were not quoting Matthew 28:19 the way it appears in the bible today. This is why I gave the reference to Pamphilus. He was a key member in helping to formulate early church doctrine and the scripture he read from was not rendered the way it is today.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

If it is truth it doesn't really matter what anyone thinks does it?

But that's the point that is being made. You quote from these scriptures as though they are truth. There's nothing wrong in what you're doing. We're simply showing that scholars are challenging the (Septuagint) rendering and discovering, historically, verses were either added and or changed so they are now being corrected.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Rather WHAT is the word of God.

Regards,
Scott

The word of god is is the vehicle of his message to human that was inspired by the Holy Spirit and delivered by prophets and Jesus the messiah/ God incarnate.

 

[deelo505]

"The same was in the beginning with God.1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. "

him is the pronoun twice and the noun to which it refers is God. So by the rules of grammar you're wrong.

Regards,

Scott

:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn(PROTOTOKOS) of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​

1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
the" him" here is jesus because God didnt bleed on the cross or please himself that fulness dwell in him.

 

[Popeyesays]

":15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn(PROTOTOKOS) of every creature:"

This, of course would be Adam who was created in the image of God.

Here's the first section of the first chapter of John: (Young's Literal)
"
John 1


1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
2this one was in the beginning with God;
3all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
4In him was life, and the life was the light of men,
5and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it.
6There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John,
7this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him;
8that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
9He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;
10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
11to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him;
12but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,
13who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
14And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
15John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;'
16and out of his fulness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace;
17for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come;
18God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.
19And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent out of Jerusalem priests and Levites, that they might question him, `Who art thou?'
20and he confessed and did not deny, and confessed -- `I am not the Christ.' 21And they questioned him, `What then? Elijah art thou?' and he saith, `I am not.' -- `The prophet art thou?' and he answered, `No.' "
-----------------------------------------------------------------

It's easier to figure out pronouns if it's intact.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The word of god is is the vehicle of his message to human that was inspired by the Holy Spirit and delivered by prophets and Jesus the messiah/ God incarnate.

So are we to assume all of God's prophets are God incarnate as well?

Read the book of Haggai...and one thing you will notice is Haggai brings the word of God and appears to speak as though it is God speaking...Can we conclude that Haagai is God incarnate?

 

[Popeyesays]

So are we to assume all of God's prophets are God incarnate as well?

Read the book of Haggai...and one thing you will notice is Haggai brings the word of God and appears to speak as though it is God speaking...Can we conclude that Haagai is God incarnate?

Haggai is a lesser prophet, like Habbakuk, Micah or Isaiah for instance. They r.efer to a Great Prophet for authority. Moses spoke upon His own authority, Jesus spoke on His own authority. So did Krshna, Muhammed, Zoroaster, Buddha, the Bab or Baha`u'llah. That is what makes them Great Prophets and Founders of religions.

Arabic distinguishes them by discrete words: "nabi" for a lesser prophet, "rasul" for a Great Prophet.

Greater or Lesser, the Prophet speaks the word of God for man to hear and will often speak AS God would speak, if we could but hear Him.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Haggai is a lesser prophet, like Habbakuk, Micah or Isaiah for instance. They r.efer to a Great Prophet for authority. Moses spoke upon His own authority, Jesus spoke on His own authority. So did Krshna, Muhammed, Zoroaster, Buddha, the Bab or Baha`u'llah. That is what makes them Great Prophets and Founders of religions.

Arabic distinguishes them by discrete words: "nabi" for a lesser prophet, "rasul" for a Great Prophet.

Greater or Lesser, the Prophet speaks the word of God for man to hear and will often speak AS God would speak, if we could but hear Him.

Regards,

Scott

I agree and I do understand. I was attempting to show how God in the bible used Haggai to bring the word of God to the people and and when you read it....It can give one the impression that God is speaking directly through Haggai.....

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So are we to assume all of God's prophets are God incarnate as well?

Read the book of Haggai...and one thing you will notice is Haggai brings the word of God and appears to speak as though it is God speaking...Can we conclude that Haagai is God incarnate?

Haggai 1:1-3 (New International Version)



Haggai 1

A Call to Build the House of the LORD

1 In the second year of King Darius, on the first day of the sixth month, the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua [a] son of Jehozadak, the high priest: 2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "These people say, 'The time has not yet come for the LORD's house to be built.' "
3 Then the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai:

OK it clearly states that Haggai was a prophet and that the word of the LORD came through the prophet. So to answer your question, no, prophets are not God but God's messengers.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Then this is where we differ. It is one of the trinitarian beliefs that God gave up his power to become human but yet when asked how can God temporarily give up his power and run the universe if he is omnipotent.....we are told.....that he was still running the universe while in the form of a man. To me this doesn't make sense and comes off as a contradiction. If God gave up his power to become part of his creation then how can he be fully (100%) God and fully (100%) man? Why would this creator have to be "given" power and authority if it all was his from the beginning? And who was it that "gave" him this power and authority?

For me, the logical conclusion would have to be that they are not the same. In order to be given there must be a giver. In order to be sent there must be a sender. I have said this plenty of times in every thread like this and that logic has gone unchallenged.

The problem you have is you can't see God as three separate persons. The Father never gave up his power, Jesus didn't either, but recognized that he was a subordinate of the Father. Jesus also humbled himself when he was a man to set an example for his followers. His power was obvious when he preformed all the miracles.

You are right when you say the Father and Jesus are not the same because they are separate individuals. One has a higher position that being the Father/giver/ sender. And remember that God the Father , Son and Holy Spirit and their logic and way of thinking are vastly different than humans. I don't think anyone can fully explain all the nuances of their being, but love is definitely the focal point of their essence.