Jesus is God?

[Dirty Penguin]

It is generally accepted among all historical scholars that Luke and Matthew were simply rewrites of Mark, from these unknown authors personal bias.

Well put, frubal....

 

[Muffled]

Well put, frubal....

It is nice that you believe in "general acceptance." Since the Trinity is a generally accepted belief does that make that valid also or do you just accept the "general acceptance" that you like?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Since the Trinity is a generally accepted belief does that make that valid also or do you just accept the "general acceptance" that you like?

Huh?...What?....

Just because the trinity concept is "generally" accepted doesn't make it, by any means, true.....

It's not that I accepted anything. The concept of trinity has not been shown to be biblical. That in itself is "generally" accepted. Do you accept it? I'm quite sure you don't. There's no basis to conclude, from your scriptures, that God, Yeshua or the holy spirit are triune but one deity. None of the four gospels support it nor does the book of revelation support it.

 

[alexander garcia]

I worship ONE, you worship THREE!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I worship ONE, you worship THREE!

Welcome to the forum. It's always nice to get the jewish perspective here.

 

[Muffled]

I worship ONE, you worship THREE!

I worship Yahweh, you worship the Law which is not the same thing even though Jesus said He was the fulfillment (embodiment) of the Law, the Law itself is only a subset of all that Yahweh has to say. On the other hand all that Yahweh has to say is characterized by John as the Logos (Word) which became flesh in the person of Jesus.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I worship Yahweh, you worship the Law which is not the same thing

Just because he adheres to the "law" doesn't mean he doesn't worship his god.

even though Jesus said He was the fulfillment (embodiment) of the Law, the Law itself is only a subset of all that Yahweh has to say.

And I guess it all depends on your interpretation of "fulfillment"....I take it to mean he was the seal or completion of the law. No more laws were to come.

American Heritage Dictionary

Fulfill
To bring to an end: to complete

Additionally when you quoted Yeshua you should have completed the quote. Here's the rest of it;

Matthew 5:17-19
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.

18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.

19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
[/FONT]
Nowhere does he say the laws should not be observed but on the contrary he warns against not obeying the laws and teaching other to do so. "No law will disappear until it is finished". He says the law has not achieved its purpose so it is to remain in effect.

Revelation 21:1
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone.[/FONT]

 

[emiliano]

If Jesus isn’t God we are all lost/unsaved!

 

[ayani]

Jesus does clearly say that He and God are One, and that those who have Seen Him have seen God. He was from God and of God- to those who doubted this, He would indicate the signs and miracles, and ask if any demon could or would drive away evil, and heal the suffering- such a power can come only from God, not from an enemy who seeks to destroy. how can evil drive out evil- a house divided can not stand.

i believe that Jesus was God's Living Word- the message and the messenger. Jesus, unlike Muhammad and others claiming prophet-hood, did not come with a text, but with His own life- as an example of service, poverty, piety, and giving everything over to God and to His brothers and sisters. God showed the world the way to and of Himself through Jesus- if we follow Jesus truly, we must be like Him, serve God and serve one another, and speak Jesus' name and gospel to all creatures.

was Jesus God- well, Jesus did not worship Himself, but others worshiped and adored Him as God's Son, messenger, and as Saviour. i am very new at faith, and i'm no theologian. only God is good- so to call Jesus good is to admit that He is of God, and that God bears witness to His claim that He is of God and sent by God. good trees can not bear bad fruit, but good fruit. and Jesus' fruit was wonderfully good, in His living example, His signs and miracles, in His words, in His sacrifice, and His resurrection from the dead.

i know i'm not a trinitarian, but i do believe Jesus was God's Son. if one believes the Gospels, God Himself says so, and Jesus says so- and Jesus' promises to heal, reconcile, and give peace are true- so why not this claim, as well? certainly i can say that Jesus is from God, of God, and knew God's Word, so that He spoke it to those who came to Him, and brought the good news of that kingdom of God to us- that we might hear, and believe, and have new and ever-lasting life in Him.

 

[Mister Emu]

There's no basis to conclude, from your scriptures, that God, Yeshua or the holy spirit are triune but one deity. None of the four gospels support it nor does the book of revelation support it.

My scriptures are restricted to the Bible, and I can say that the basis is there and very obvious... While the biblical scriptures do not say plainly "Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God in seperate hypostases", everything to point there is.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I can say that the basis is there and very obvious...

Then we all would agree but we don't. Yeshua explicitly says he has a god and he said it more than once. The "heavenly" Yeshua expresses he was separate from his god prior to being "sent".....While here he constantly informs his followers he was "sent" here by his god....and after his return to heaven we find that he once again says he has a god.

While the biblical scriptures do not say plainly "Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God in seperate hypostases", everything to point there is.

This is not the case. Yeshua plainly says that he and his god are one in purpose as he prayed to his god he hoped we all would become one in purpose as well. That is the extent of their oneness. As far as "hypostases" that is just a big word for trinity. No where in the NT can we find Yeshua teaching trinity.

 

[ayani]

also, on God's Holy Spirit... my take, as a Unitarian Christian.

to begin with, Jesus was a Jew. theologically, He was a monotheist, who prayed to God, and who emphasized the importance of the Unity of God often, by quoting those passages in Deuteronomy proclaiming God's oneness. within the context of Judaism, one does not find the concept of Holy Spirit as a distinct person or facet of God. one does find the concept of "Shekinah", the spirit of God which enlightens, guides, illuminates, and dwells within places and people. when Jesus and His Jewish followers would have spoken of the Holy Spirit, they were not, as Jews, speaking about a third person of a triune Godhead, as the idea of trinity is completely alien to Judaism, both then and now. most likely, they spoke of and experienced what is within Judaism known as Shekinah, the living, enlightening, inspiring spirit of God that works among and within people.

so when i pray, i use the expression "God's Holy Spirit", rather than "the Holy Spirit". i may ask God to guide me and work through me by His Holy Spirit- but i don't invoke God's Holy Spirit separately from Him, nor do i pray to it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

also, on God's Holy Spirit... my take, as a Unitarian Christian.

to begin with, Jesus was a Jew. theologically, He was a monotheist, who prayed to God, and who emphasized the importance of the Unity of God often, by quoting those passages in Deuteronomy proclaiming God's oneness. within the context of Judaism, one does not find the concept of Holy Spirit as a distinct person or facet of God. one does find the concept of "Shekinah", the spirit of God which enlightens, guides, illuminates, and dwells within places and people. when Jesus and His Jewish followers would have spoken of the Holy Spirit, they were not, as Jews, speaking about a third person of a triune Godhead, as the idea of trinity is completely alien to Judaism, both then and now. most likely, they spoke of and experienced what is within Judaism known as Shekinah, the living, enlightening, inspiring spirit of God that works among and within people.

I agree that this is how the jews then and now view it. They have no concept of trinity and when you ask them they believe it to be blasphemy...going against the first commandment. The muslims share the same view in believing that there is but one god and he is not three (triune).

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Then we all would agree but we don't. Yeshua explicitly says he has a god and he said it more than once. The "heavenly" Yeshua expresses he was separate from his god prior to being "sent".....While here he constantly informs his followers he was "sent" here by his god....and after his return to heaven we find that he once again says he has a god.




This is not the case. Yeshua plainly says that he and his god are one in purpose as he prayed to his god he hoped we all would become one in purpose as well. That is the extent of their oneness. As far as "hypostases" that is just a big word for trinity. No where in the NT can we find Yeshua teaching trinity.

Joseph did not have sex with Marry before Mary's conception. God conceived Jesus though marry. God and woman have a child and that amounst (sp?) many other reasons, which I've repeated told you is why Christian's equate Jesus as God and man. Someone in this thread (or ones like it) said ducks have baby duck, cows have baby cows and God who conceives a child through a woman have God/man babies. That IS in the Gospels.

 

[emiliano]

I worship ONE, you worship THREE!

What do you make of Moses account in Genesis 1:1-3
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light. And there was light.
So we have God the creator that has a spirit (the Holy Spirit) and the Word, the apostle John “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God”

 

[Father Heathen]

If Jesus isn’t God we are all lost/unsaved!

We wouldn't/don't need to be "saved" to begin with.

 

[crystalonyx]

Joseph did not have sex with Marry before Mary's conception. God conceived Jesus though marry. God and woman have a child and that amounst (sp?) many other reasons, which I've repeated told you is why Christian's equate Jesus as God and man. Someone in this thread (or ones like it) said ducks have baby duck, cows have baby cows and God who conceives a child through a woman have God/man babies. That IS in the Gospels.

There are many, many equivalent tales of virgin births in other religions, do you believe all of them?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

God and woman have a child and that amounst (sp?) many other reasons, which I've repeated told you is why Christian's equate Jesus as God and man.

And yet this is not what he taught the people nor did his followers view him as such. John (The Baptist) viewed him as one who God has sent, who speaks on God's behalf.

Martha said to him..."I know that whatever you ask of God HE will give it yo YOU"

Yeshua himself says that he came to earth, not of his own will but the will of he who sent him. This is BEFORE being sent by his god.

In one of his many prayers to his god he says that his god is the one true god and he is the messiah whom his god has sent.

As we skip to the Revelation we find that he informs John that he has a god. Now this relay of information is given to John after the supposed crucifixion and after the supposed ascension.

So all of this before, during and after he is showing that he and his god are not the same and they are separate in every way except purpose.

Revelation reveals some useful information. It shows that God is the one on the throne receiving the praise from his creation and a question is asked as to who is worthy of opening the seals. None of God's servants would dare ask if he is worthy....but then the Lamb enters and he is the only one worthy of the task. Who it the Lamb? Well my research has pointed me in the direction of Yeshua. If Yeshua is the Lamb spoken of in heaven then he is not the god that is on the throne receiving the praise.

At this point the scroll is in God's possession and and then the Lamb (again, whom I'm told is the messiah) steps forward and is deemed the one worthy of opening the seals.......but God hands him the scroll to open.....

Rev. 5:6-7
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]6 I looked and I saw a Lamb that had been killed but was now standing between the throne and the four living beings and among the twenty-four elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God that are sent out into every part of the earth.2

7 He stepped forward and took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting on the throne.
[/FONT]
Who's sitting on the throne? Well we know it's not the messiah because we step back a few verses and it says.....

Rev. 4:9-11
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]9 Whenever the living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever,

10 the twenty-four elders fall down and worship the one who lives forever and ever. And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,

11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created."
[/FONT]

Well, it's all right here. Yeshua is not God.

Someone in this thread (or ones like it) said ducks have baby duck,

True

cows have baby cows

True

and God who conceives a child through a woman have God/man babies.

False

That IS in the Gospels.

The four gospels do not show him to be God at all and Rev. 3:12 disagrees with you...

Rev. 3:12
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write my God's name on them, and they will be citizens in the city of my God--the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And they will have my new name inscribed upon them.


In 3:12 Yeshua is speaking about his god who in 4:9-11 is sitting on the throne receiving the praise from his creation who in 5:6-7 hands Yeshua the scroll to be opened.


Yeshua is not God........
[/FONT]

 

[TashaN]

As we skip to the Revelation we find that he informs John that he has a god. Now this relay of information is given to John after the supposed crucifixion and after the supposed ascension.

So all of this before, during and after he is showing that he and his god are not the same and they are separate in every way except purpose.

Good point.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I guess we will all find out. Some sooner, some later.