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Jesus is God?

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
What of the rest, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?

Again, Revelation 3:12 answers this. If Yeshua is to be taken as God, as you asset, then the ascended Yeshua would not be telling John that he has a god. And further in the book the "Lamb"...., who is supposed to be Yeshua the Messiah, would not be taking or receiving the scroll from God if he (IS) God....It would have already been in his possession. The supposed prophecy in In Isaiah is applied to Yeshua by mistake. The prophecy was meant for a king in that day in time and that king would be a witness to the prophecy.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
What of the rest, The mighty God, The everlasting Father?

That's a common Christian error in Hebrew grammar.

God, in all His glory and with all the titles that describe Him, will call the boy "Prince of Peace"

God is not the prince of peace. God will call the child "prince of peace".
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Nobody seems to look at this issue from the very foundation. Does it matter whether Jesus was God or not?

Well, it is very important cause it is our believe that “God Saves” so if Jesus lied when He says I am the way, I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am, I am….. (Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you) We would be lost and our faith nulled.
If he was, than he disappeared and it was as if he never was to begin with. If he was not, than nothing else changes either. Even with the book, there is not a clear answer.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. The first cause, the uncaused cause.
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Yes I heard that one, there are other that says that it is the Gentiles
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
To whom indeed?
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
Sorry, "bandwagon" theories don't cut it with me. Milllions of people got on board in Hitler's extermination of the Jews, does that make it right?

CHristianinity was just the cult that won out, and was carried on thru tradition, that's all, it's tales have no more validity than any other religion's and it is arrogant to suggest otherwise.

We are talking billions, do you know what a delusion is? Atheist are tiny minority that maintain a believe that billions do not share.

Consider that Christianity started with 12 men and their master, there has to be a reason for it expansion, Nazism is almost dead after 60 years, any idea why is it so? It is hard for us not to be sure of what we believe after all the sole fact that it survived against all odds it’s a miracle. Also consider Christianity universal acceptance, there are Christian in all parts of the world, so the fact that it doesn’t cut it for you is of little consequence, what do you think? Arrogant? It is hard not to be, we won out didn’t we?
 

logician

Well-Known Member
We are talking billions, do you know what a delusion is? Atheist are tiny minority that maintain a believe that billions do not share.

Consider that Christianity started with 12 men and their master, there has to be a reason for it expansion, Nazism is almost dead after 60 years, any idea why is it so? It is hard for us not to be sure of what we believe after all the sole fact that it survived against all odds it’s a miracle. Also consider Christianity universal acceptance, there are Christian in all parts of the world, so the fact that it doesn’t cut it for you is of little consequence, what do you think? Arrogant? It is hard not to be, we won out didn’t we?

Case closed.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Yes I heard that one, there are other that says that it is the Gentiles
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
Isa 53:2 For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as it were a hiding of faces from Him, He being despised, and we esteemed Him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was on Him; and with His stripes we ourselves are healed.
To whom indeed?


1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
Who would have believed our reportSo will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
the arm of the Lord like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?


2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
And he came up like a sapling before itThis people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.Religious Education Forum - Reply to Topic
and like a root he came up from dry land.
neither form had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.
and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?
Now shall we desire him?This is a question.


3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
Despised and rejected by menwas he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
and as one who hides his face from us Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.


4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
Indeed, he bore our illnessesHeb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.


5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
the chastisement of our welfare was upon him The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.

Basically, Isaiah 53 is the exclamation of the nations when they look upon Israel when it is redeemed with awe and wonder, realizing what they did to Israel was wrong.

"We" are the nations. He is Israel.

8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation The years that passed over him.
who shall tell? The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Well, it is very important cause it is our believe that “God Saves”

Well that's the problem right there. Most christians pick up a translated bible and think all the answers are right in front of them. God is not the "only" saviour. But what has now happened is that because some believes that only God can save then Yeshua, being a saviour, must be God. This is incorrect. Not only does your bible say God saves but he (ALSO) sends saviours. Notice that is plural?

2Kings 13:5
And the Lord gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

so if Jesus lied when He says I am the way, I am the Alpha and the Omega, I am, I am….. (Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you) We would be lost and our faith nulled.

Your're mixing different statements from all over the bible. If you believe Yeshua to be God and you're going to try and use Revelation then first deal with Revelation 3:12 where he states that he has a god. If he is God then surely he can't have a god as well. Also explain why the "Lamb", who is supposed to be Yeshua the Messiah excepts the scroll from God. If he is God then the scroll would not have to be handed over to him.

Yeshua never uttered the statement in Exodus 3:14. That was God alone that said that. The statement in John 8:58, contextually, has nothing to do with Exodus 3:14 and it should have never been applied. Additionally the rest of the statement in Ex. 3:14 was told to Moses by God and it was not said by or to Yeshua.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. The first cause, the uncaused cause.

Again, before you can use this to make the claim of deity you may have to explain why in the very same book Yeshua reveals that he is NOT God and he has a god. Additionally you'll notice that ("The one who is sitting on the throne") which John talks about is God and it's not the Lamb (The Messiah). This is important because the reference to (The Alpha and Omega) is talking about God and not the lamb.

Revelation 21:5-6
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]5And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making all things new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

6 And he also said, "It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give the springs of the water of life without charge!

If you refer back toward the beginning of Revelation you quickly get an understanding that the one on the throne is God. Yeshua is always mentioned by his name or refered to as "The Lamb" or "The Messiah"

Revelation 4:2 and 9-11
2 And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]9Whenever the living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]10 the twenty-four elders fall down and worship the one who lives forever and ever. And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created."[/FONT]

The one on the throne is God and all of his creation is praising him. The Lamb (The messiah) is some one totally different. God (He who is on the throne - ever living) is the Alpha/Omega. The Lamb is separate and is deemed the one worthy of opening the seals on the scroll. The scroll that was handed to him by the one on the throne. Instead of cutting and pasting some more from Rev. 5. Just check it out. Here is where you clearly see that the one on the throne (the alpha and omega) hands the scroll to the Lamb (the messia Yeshua). So...NO....Yeshua is not God nor is he the Alpha/Omega....I'm not sure how people totally miss this......
 

emiliano

Well-Known Member
This is the problem with dead languages, ancient languages that were lost in time, because only consonant were saved in later year the religious leaders interpreted them as they wished. An example is the Halakah (Jewish law: the body of Jewish law beginning with the Pentateuch and developed by the rabbis.
In the days of the second Temple a major point of friction between the Pharisees and the Sadducees was the validity of the oral law since the Sadducees were only adhering to the written law. Even among the Pharisees, schools of teaching such as Hillel and Shammai differed in their interpretation of biblical law and in their own oral rulings. Various attempts were made at drawing up collections of rulings. At the end of the second century AD, however, Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi summarized the legal debates in a form that came to be regarded as authoritative, and this record of the final decisions of the
tannaim now constitutes the Mishnah. Once this work was established, further debate centered on its meaning and interpretation; these discussions of the Palestinian and Babylonian amoraim are recorded in the two Talmuds. In the Middle Ages, and subsequently, the halakhah was codified. The final decisions of the Talmud and further responsa were collected in such volumes as the Maimonides' Mishneh Torah (Second Law) and Joseph Caro's Shulhan Arukh (The Land Table). The Shulhan Arukh in particular became so authoritative that there was a marked reluctance to part from its rulings.
Halakhah
Dirty Penguin wrote:
Well that's the problem right there. Most christians pick up a translated bible and think all the answers are right in front of them
.
And do the Jewish Jews as you can see.
Dirty Penguin We disagree cause am a Trinitarian and your are not.
Hypostatic Union
A
theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealedtruth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation. Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, "Mund.", IV, 21). It occurs also in St. Paul'sEpistles (2 Corinthians 9:4; 11:17; Hebrews 1:3-3:14), but not in the sense of person. Previous to the Council of Nicæa (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin., V, 8) avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christologicalheresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united. For further explanation and bibliography see: INCARNATION; JESUS CHRIST; MONOPHYSITISM; NATURE; PERSON.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony

Dirty Penguin We disagree cause am a Trinitarian and your are not.
Hypostatic Union
A theological
term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealedtruth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation. Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, "Mund.", IV, 21). It occurs also in St. Paul'sEpistles (2 Corinthians 9:4; 11:17; Hebrews 1:3-3:14), but not in the sense of person. Previous to the Council of Nicæa (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin., V, 8) avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christologicalheresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148). They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united. For further explanation and bibliography see: INCARNATION; JESUS CHRIST; MONOPHYSITISM; NATURE; PERSON.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm
And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us.
Joh 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.


I get that this is what you believe and it seems to only address Yeshua as he is here on earth. "BUT".....again, it is Yeshua who says he existed in heaven and informs us that his will will separate from his god's will. Additionally, his supposed ascension has him, in the book of Revelation, explaining to John he has a god. Why would God tell John he has a god? The scripture is quite clear and explicit on this fact. We then discover Yeshua is not the (Alpha/Omega) spoken of in that book. There are multiple people (beings) speaking in Revelation and sometimes it can appear difficult to determine who is speaking....But the one one the throne and the Lamb are totally different. The one on the throne is refrred to as God while it is commonly agreed that the Lamb is (Yeshua the Messiah). As a matter of fact, the very beginning of that book should dispel the notion that Yeshua is God...

Revelation 1:1-2
1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him concerning the events that will happen soon. An angel was sent to God's servant John so that John could share the revelation with God's other servants.



The writer does not assume Yeshua and God to be the same. The revelation was something God "GAVE" to Yeshua


2 John faithfully reported the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ--everything he saw.
You see, your scriptures make a clear distinction between the two. The descriptions and statements in Revelation do not show Yeshua to be God but to the contrary.
 

JTFC

Member
You are partially correct. There are three persons in the Holy Trinity, and All are one supreme being called God/ Yahweh.

So, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. All have been present throughout eternity.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are partially correct. There are three persons in the Holy Trinity, and All are one supreme being called God/ Yahweh.

So, The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. All have been present throughout eternity.

3 persons living in one body?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I'm sorry but..again...Revelation 3:12, the last part of chapter four and all of chapter five is in opposition with the trinity concept and it shows God (the one) and the Lamb (The messiah) to be totally separate. So far I have seen no trinitarian attempt to tackle these verses.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but..again...Revelation 3:12, the last part of chapter four and all of chapter five is in opposition with the trinity concept and it shows God (the one) and the Lamb (The messiah) to be totally separate. So far I have seen no trinitarian attempt to tackle these verses.

I counted 64 posts in this thread that have tried to biblically describe that Jesus is God. None of them has convinced you nor do I think any more will either. I have repeatedly stated that in fact Jesus and the Father have different roles and that yes the Father sits on the throne. I've also stated that Jesus recognizes his position with the Father and is a subordinate to the Father and that is why Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. But Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth. He also was sinless further clarifying that Jesus was God, because only God is without sin. It's this very fact that he was without sin that qualifies Jesus to be the Lamb of God, who's blood atones for the sins of the world. I've also stated that, according to the Bible that God conceived Jesus through Mary and as you have traits of your father and mother, so did Jesus.

I would also like to go back in time and see Jesus talking to people in his ministry and then watch their reaction when they saw him walking around after they watched him die. I'm sure a few jaws hit the ground.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"I would also like to go back in time and see Jesus talking to people in his ministry and then watch their reaction when they saw him walking around after they watched him die. I'm sure a few jaws hit the ground."

"

"BLIND LEADERS OF THE BLIND"
Christians today look back at the Jews who rejected Jesus and wonder how those people could have been so blind. Even Jesus commented on their lack of insight. He said: "This people draweth nigh unto me (the Messiah) with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men... they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the ditch." -Matthew 15:14 (KJV) The Jewish clergy had totally misinterpreted the Messianic promises. The clear insight of these so-called experts had become blindness. These "blind leaders of the blind" had led their followers "into the ditch" of misunderstanding and rejection. Because they had denied Jesus as the Messiah... the faith of these people, which originally was true, now was pronounced by Jesus to be "in vain".
These incorrect interpretations carried a high price. They cost John the Baptist his head and they got Jesus nailed to a cross.
Jesus wanted his followers to understand what had happened in the past so they could avoid repeating these same mistakes. He cautioned Christians to "beware the leaven of the Pharisees". (see Mt 16: 6&11, Mk 8:15, Lk 12:1)
When questioned, Jesus explained that he wasn't talking about yeast or about bread. Instead, what he meant by this curious phrase was that the Jewish religious leaders had replaced the "doctrines" of God with the "commandments of men." And, that through the years, these false interpretations of men had gradually taken the rightful place of the true law of God.
What lessons can we learn from these mistakes of the past? Two thousand years ago the Jews were expecting Elijah to physically return from heaven. Today, we find that Christians are also expecting Jesus to physically descend from heaven. What's the difference between then and now? Are people today repeating the same mistakes of the past... right now?
Referring to this question, the Baha'i writings explain: "know that the return of Christ for a second time doth not mean what the people believe, but, rather, signifieth the One promised to come after Him..." -Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha, page 138
Members of the Baha'i Faith believe that this same "spirit and power" which, in the past, had animated Jesus and John the Baptist has once again descended from heaven... this time upon Baha'u'llah--- the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith. Is this claim true? Has Christ already returned in an unexpected way? Could it actually be possible that God has, again, spoken to humanity almost within our own lifetimes? Please continue to the other links in this "prophecy fulfilled" home page to hear more. "--- written by Joel Smith

Entire article at:
If you

Regards,
Scott

 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I counted 64 posts in this thread that have tried to biblically describe that Jesus is God. None of them has convinced you nor do I think any more will either. I have repeatedly stated that in fact Jesus and the Father have different roles and that yes the Father sits on the throne. I've also stated that Jesus recognizes his position with the Father and is a subordinate to the Father and that is why Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. But Jesus has all authority in Heaven and Earth. He also was sinless further clarifying that Jesus was God, because only God is without sin. It's this very fact that he was without sin that qualifies Jesus to be the Lamb of God, who's blood atones for the sins of the world. I've also stated that, according to the Bible that God conceived Jesus through Mary and as you have traits of your father and mother, so did Jesus.

I would also like to go back in time and see Jesus talking to people in his ministry and then watch their reaction when they saw him walking around after they watched him die. I'm sure a few jaws hit the ground.

I think i understand where you are coming from, but the problem is that every christian i have met try to hold a specific set of verses which supports his stance and ignore the other passages which seem to contradict his/her argument. This is the main problem in christianity.
 
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