Jesus is not God Almighty Himself

[InChrist]

It has already been mentioned in the thread but not thoroughly addressed. What are we to make of the numerous verses of the bible that refer to other humans as gods. Especially melchizedek as being the begotten son of God. Is this literal or metaphorical?

I think according to the scriptures, we are to realize that while many may be called gods, there is only ONE true God...
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. 1 Cor. 8:4-6

My perspective is that Melchizedek is Christ...

"Some propose that Melchizedek was actually a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ, or a Christophany. This is a possible theory, given that Abraham had received such a visit before. Consider Genesis 17 where Abraham saw and spoke with the Lord (El Shaddai) in the form of a man.

Hebrews 6:20 says, “[Jesus] has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” This term order would ordinarily indicate a succession of priests holding the office. None are ever mentioned, however, in the long interval from Melchizedek to Christ, an anomaly that can be solved by assuming that Melchizedek and Christ are really the same person. Thus the “order” is eternally vested in Him and Him alone.

Hebrews 7:3 says that Melchizedek was “without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.” The question is whether the author of Hebrews means this actually or figuratively.

If the description in Hebrews is literal, then it is indeed difficult to see how it could be properly applied to anyone but the Lord Jesus Christ. "
Who was Melchizedek?

 

[Katzpur]

Mormon theology is very different from conservative Christianity. Mormon Trinity simply acknowledges that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are divine. Oneness in purpose maybe, but definitely not one entity as conservative Christians believe. This is what Joseph Smith said about the Trinity: "Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God. . . . All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism [the Christian faith]. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster” (Teachings, p. 372).

We may use the same words, but we mean completely different things. However I believe that that is another topic on its own.

Does conservative Christianity not describe them as "three persons"? When you say they are "one," what exactly does this mean? That the Father is the Son? That the Son is the Holy Ghost? That the Holy Ghost is the Father? If they are not three separate persons, not one interaction between them makes any sense whatsoever. The Father would have had to send himself to earth to atone for the sins of mankind, but He didn't: He sent His Son. The Son would have had to pray to himself, but He didn't; He prayed to His Father. The Bible says they are one God, but it does not say they are "one entity." When Jesus prayed that His followers would be "one" even as He and His Father were "one," do you think He was praying that we'd all ultimately be absorbed into a single substance and lose our identities as individuals?

The Book of Mormon states: "And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end."

But in answer to the question asked by the OP, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is "God" in His own right. But He definitely isn't His own Father!

 

[JasonL]

That is true. God lives in Jesus, but Jesus is not God. He is the Son of God. If someone is born again, he will receive the Spirit of God and be one with God, just as Jesus was. This should be our goal.

 

[Katzpur]

'Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. ' John 20:27-29 (KJV)

It is clear throughout the Gospels that Jesus makes no distinction between Son of God or God, because he believed it to be the same thing. If you claim that they are different, you need to explain to me how that is not idolatry, because Yahweh clearly expected exclusive worship as a Jealous God.

Then how do you explain John 14:28, which states, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." If two things are in fact "the same thing," how is it possible that one of them be greater than the other? Furthermore, why would Jesus "go unto the Father" if He and the Father were "the same thing"?

 

[Thinking Homer]

But in answer to the question asked by the OP, Mormons believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is "God" in His own right. But He definitely isn't His own Father!

Nor do conservative Christians. I haven't read the Book of Mormon yet, so I can't say much about it. The doctrine of the Trinity is well stated in the Athanasian Creed which I posted earlier. I'll put it up here again for convenience.

What is the Athanasian Creed?

You are going to notice that there are a few theological differences between what the Mormon church teaches and what this creed teaches. Conservative Christians abide by this creed fully.

 

[Katzpur]

Nor do conservative Christians. I haven't read the Book of Mormon yet, so I can't say much about it. The doctrine of the Trinity is well stated in the Athanasian Creed which I posted earlier. I'll put it up here again for convenience.

What is the Athanasian Creed?

You are going to notice that there are a few theological differences between what the Mormon church teaches and what this creed teaches. Conservative Christians abide by this creed fully.

The Athanasian Creed states, "And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal." That directly contradicts Jesus' own words that the Father is greater than He. Since Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, today and forever," then His relationship to His Father would also have to be the same yesterday, today and forever. If He said "the Father is greater than I," He meant it, not only in terms of that moment in time, but also in terms of the past and the future. He also referred to His Father (in John 20:17) as "my God." Nowhere in the Bible does the Father refer to the Son as His God. However, in Hebrews 1:8, the Father does address the Son as "God." That verse states: "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." To me, this is a clear indication that the Father sees the Son as "God" with respect to His (i.e. the Son's) relationship to mankind. He does not, however, see Him (Jesus) as His own God.

P.S. Thank you for the civil debate. Civility between people with different points of view is at times rare on this forum. By the way, I'm wondering if you would be interested in discussing the Athanasian Creed line by line on either the "One on One Debates" or the "Team Debates" forum. If we did this on the team debates forum, you could ask another couple of conservative Christians to join you and I could ask a couple of fellow LDS Christian to join me.

 

[Ingledsva]

...

Since he does claim to be the Messiah, - don't you think if he was YHVH he would tell people? Just as he did saying he was the Messiah?

...John 8:58 - πρὶν Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι, ἐγώ εἰμι. “Before Abraham was born I am.”

In using the phrase I Am (John 8:24, 8:58, 13:19) Jesus used a clear divine title belonging to Yahweh alone (Exodus 3:13-14, Deuteronomy 32:39, Isaiah 43:10) and was interpreted as such by Jesus’ listeners (John 8:58-59). “I AM was recognized by the Jews as a title of deity.” (Tenney)...

Nope, doesn't fly.

To Abraham - Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This is a direct reference to the awaited Jewish Messiah. The Messiah comes from his line.

Genesis 49:10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people"

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

John 8:58 Said he Jesus, Amen (so be it, or, it is so) Amen, saying to them, for Abraham to be (gonomai γενέσθαι) fulfilled, I am (I exist).

*
John 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

They are definitely claiming Jesus is the awaited Messiah, not God/trinity, etc. And obviously so does Jesus claim such in 25, - and not godhood.

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[URAVIP2ME]

That is true. God lives in Jesus, but Jesus is not God. He is the Son of God. If someone is born again, he will receive the Spirit of God and be one with God, just as Jesus was. This should be our goal.

Seems to me there are two (2) goals outlined in Scripture.

True, Jesus is Not God because pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 3:14 B.
In other words God had No beginning as per Psalms 90:2, so only God was before the beginning, thus pre-human Jesus was Not before the beginning as his God was before the beginning.

Since the ' brothers ' of Jesus are the ones mentioned at Matthew 25:40, then the figurative humble ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37 are Not the same as Jesus' brothers of verse 40.
Those ' sheep ' do Not have a heavenly calling goal but can remain alive on Earth and continue to live on Earth right through the coming ' great tribulation ' of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill. Those ' sheep ' can be part of the physical humble meek who will inherit (Not Heaven ) but inherit the Earth as Jesus promised, thus can gain 'everlasting life' on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden originally was.

 

[Ingledsva]

...Other scriptures in the Hebrew Bible talking about the Trinity (CJB):
'“Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now Adonai Elohim has sent me and his Spirit.”' - Yesha 'yahu (Isaiah) 48:16.

No Jewish trinity.

Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

Isa 48:4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;

Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

Isa 48:14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? YHVH hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now Lord YHVH, and his

rûach (breath/will/power/mind/anger,) hath sent me.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith YHVH, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am YHVH thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Verse 3 tells us he used his mouth = BREATH - to force obstinate people to do his bidding. No "spirit," his breath/force/power. Not a separate trinity being. Just as his hand in 13 isn't a 4th being.

Verses 15 and 16 are telling us once again his breath/WILL has moved someone/people into position.

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[Ingledsva]

...'For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],' - Yesha 'yahu (Isaiah) 9:5

Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,

Isa 7:11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 8:18 Behold, I (Isaiah) and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Isaiah 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

Isaiah 9:6 For is born a child, a son given to take the rule/government upon his shoulders; and his name is called Wonderful Adviser, Mighty Warrior, Father of future generations, Ruler/keeper/prince of peace.

Isaiah 9:7 To increase the government/empire and the welfare/safety/peace of the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to strengthen the justice and righteousness, from this time, and to eternity. Zealously YHVH of Hosts will do this.

This is Isaiah's son that they are talking about. He is a sign to them during the war. He will "increase the government/empire."

The SIGN/baby is for AHAZ, and ISAIAH who is with him, in the WAR. Jesus would obviously NOT be a sign for AHAZ - at this date - and concerning this war.

Some also think this is Hezekiah, son of Ahaz.

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[Ingledsva]

I have a few questions to ask.

First, seeing in 1 Cor 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep"

Can you explain what group of people is the dead in reference to, in the Bible ?
What does it mean ( Who have fallen asleep) What group of people is this in reference to ?
Have you any idea how Jesus is God Almighty?

ING - The Jews believed ALL people both good and bad went to SHEOL, where they awaited the end and judgment.

I believe the reason the NT has Jesus going to the grave/SHEOL first - is because he was a human Messiah. ALL humans go to Sheol. The idea is that Jesus was the first to RISE from Sheol. I believe the rising whole-body idea was added later.
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As you stated, ( The last enemy to be destroyed is death)
Who is death, What is the name of Death ?

ING - The idea is that - The "first" death is death of the body, and entombment in Sheol.
The "second" "final" death, is the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and judgment. The evil don't burn in a hell, they cease to exist. No more death.
The "fire" reference is actually to the refiner's furnace burning off and destroying the dross, leaving only the precious metal.
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As you stated, ( And if we look at passages like 1 Cor 15:20-28, Paul makes clear that Jesus is both distinct and lesser than God"

In what way is Jesus lesser than God ?
Do you have any idea, how this works ?

ING - As others have said. Jesus himself makes it clear that he believes he is the Messiah, not a God.

John 4:25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us." 26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

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As you stated, 1 Corinthians 15:21---" For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

Who is death, what is death's name ?
What does it mean, The Resurrection of the dead?
In the Bible what group of people, are the dead in reference to ?

Ing - Adam was a man - and so was Jesus.

Again - the idea is that death is just death of the body, sending ALL to Sheol to await Judgment.

At that judgment the DEAD will be resurrected (like Jesus) if found worthy, - or totally destroyed if found evil.

Since it is the END, final judgment, death is no longer needed.

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[Ingledsva]

Trinity means three aspects of God. The trinity 'doctrine', describes the trinity, though not with full name reference.
The doctrine didn't invent the trinity, and, the H.Spirit isn't a "person", its a spirit.

Hence more than three, can still be a trinitarian
Quick pizza analogy
Pizza has olives, onions, pepperoni, and anchovies[ pizza has has olives and onions, pizza has pepperoni and anchovies, and olives[pizza has any combination of the toppings[ pizza isn't plain or pineapple.[pluralistic singular, main toppings[still a pizza.

An olive isn't a pizza.

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[cataway]

Trinity means three aspects of God. The trinity 'doctrine', describes the trinity, though not with full name reference.
The doctrine didn't invent the trinity, and, the H.Spirit isn't a "person", its a spirit.

Hence more than three, can still be a trinitarian
Quick pizza analogy
Pizza has olives, onions, pepperoni, and anchovies[ pizza has has olives and onions, pizza has pepperoni and anchovies, and olives[pizza has any combination of the toppings[ pizza isn't plain or pineapple.[pluralistic singular, main toppings[still a pizza.

why is it evey time the trinity is proven to be a farse that the definition changes ?

 

[lukethethird]

Jesus' relationship to God has always been a highly controversial and complex topic,

Who knew?

 

[Desert Snake]

why is it evey time the trinity is proven to be a farse that the definition changes ?

No idea what that means. Nor really care.

 

[Ingledsva]

Thats what the trinity is.

You don't get it.

You folks say Jesus is part of a trinity - AND is GOD. (Jesus himself never says this.)

You used a pizza analogy.

Pizza is actually a flat bread. People sometimes add things to it.

The added things are not pizza, they are additions.

YHVH is ONE. You folks trying to Add Jesus and a Ghost, doesn't make them God.

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[Desert Snake]

You don't get it.

You folks say Jesus is part of a trinity - AND is GOD. (Jesus himself never says this.)

You used a pizza analogy.

Pizza is actually a flat bread. People sometimes add things to it.

The added things are not pizza, they are additions.

YHVH is ONE. You folks trying to Add Jesus and a Ghost, doesn't make them God.

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In other words, you don't understand the trinity concept.

 

[Ingledsva]

In other words, you don't understand the trinity concept.

I understand that Jesus was Jewish.

Jesus taught Tanakh.

Tanakh has ONE God YHVH, and absolutely no trinity.

Jesus never said anything about himself being part of any trinity.

Nor did he ever say he was YHVH.

He only claimed to be the awaited special human Jewish Messiah.

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[cataway]

its a lie ......a deception to hide the truth . in a true trinity all three are equal , and yet Jesus and the holy spirit answer to God . any one who answers to another is a servent

 

[Desert Snake]

I understand that Jesus was Jewish.

Jesus taught Tanakh.

Tanakh has ONE God YHVH, and absolutely no trinity.

Jesus never said anything about himself being part of any trinity.

Nor did he ever say he was YHVH.

He only claimed to be the awaited special human Jewish Messiah.

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Show where Jesus claimed to be the Messiah that you are talking about.