Jesus is not God

[blü 2]

Jesus is the eternally preexistent SON of God who took the form of man:

I didn't ask you that. I asked how, exactly, the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke (the only two virgin versions) acquired their Y-chromosome. Mary's ovum had to be fertilized in a manner her evolved Homo sapiens body could cope with and react to, so any alien influences would need to be minimized.

Jesus says, "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father" (John 16: 28-33)

That of course is not Jesus saying "I am God" ─ nor would he, considering the number of times John's Jesus made it clear that he was NOT God, more emphatic about it than the other versions of Jesus, and they each made it clear enough.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men".

Sure, the "Kenosis hymn". That 'robbery' as a translation of Philippians 2:6 ─

2:6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ​

is colorful, but the TR text says nothing of the kind, as you can see.

Everything Mary needed to give birth to a son was provided at the moment of the Son's incarnation. Nothing else needed to be provided.

An early form of Obamacare or National Health, you say? Very thoughtful.

There is one Jesus, one body, one Savior. Any other Jesus claiming to be the only begotten Son of God is a false Jesus. This idea of the apostles attesting to several different Jesuses is certainly interesting, but incorrect.

I'm simply telling you what the NT says ─ that there are five versions of Jesus in the NT and they have irreconcilable differences. I assume you live in a free country where you're free to rewrite documents out of copyright any way that pleases you, so go ahead, however pleases you.

I don't see where anything I've said conflicts with the NT, but I must say I see quite a bit of what you posted here that does.

Cheap shot unless you provide specifics, I'd say.

I did not present the premise "Jesus is Not God". That's in the title line of the OP, and it's not evidenced. I think a proffered premise, as a bare minimum, needs at least a modicum of support before requiring the world to rush out and rebut it.

But at least it accords with NT, as I've pointed out. Jesus has to wait till the 4th century to become Triune, which as we seem to agree is an incoherent way to be,

When someone, blind from birth, stands up and announces there is no color red, the onus is on that blind person to show that red does not exist.

You refresh your knowledge of the EM spectrum eg via Wikipedia >Electromagnetic spectrum - Wikipedia<. You take this unfortunate blind person to a source of heat, perhaps a stove top. You help the person (safely) feel the heat. You then explain that you can detect heat, just as the eye can detect other frequencies of the EM spectrum.

The onus does not shift to the world to prove the color red exists, no matter how much the blind man wishes to see it.

But the solution is as above, so that's not a problem.

The converse is also true. If I had created an OP that Jesus IS God, the onus would be on me to evidence the same. All I ask is that you hold yourself to the same standard of evidence that you would demand of me if our roles were reversed:

Show us where Jesus says: "I am not God".

Goodness, didn't you read all the quotes I've referred you to again and again?

For example, Paul in 1 Corinthians 8: 6

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.​

Note how there's only one God and it isn't Jesus.

Or what about Mark?

Mark 9 : 36 And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.​

You haven't worked out who "him who sent me" is? If not, just say so and I'll explain it to you.

Or Matthew 20:23?

23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”​

So Jesus is God but there are things God can do and Jesus can't? Do you not see a problem here?

Or Luke 18:18

And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”​

You're saying that Jesus is being deceitful here, pretending not be God?

Or John 5:30

“I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​

So Jesus has no authority but he's still God, you say? Really?

Or John 17:3

“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​

Does that not appear to you to be a perfectly clear statement that Jesus is Jesus and God is someone else altogether?

Or John 20:17

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

You think Jesus is like Donald Trump or Elon Musk, worshiping himself?

And as Eli G noted recently, Acts 3:13

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, the one whom you handed over and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. (...)
26 God raised up His Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.​

Do you say Jesus is both the servant of the God of Abraham, and the God of Abraham at the same time? The God of Abraham never renounced [his] covenant of circumcision, for instance, and when Paul did that, Paul created a new God, different to the God of the Tanakh's covenant.

As I said earlier, nowhere in the NT does any version of Jesus say "I am God". Not even once.

If the Jesus of the NT was indeed God, contrary to his repeated denials, then his entire mission was a creepy deceit and lie. And it was very silly of him to pray to himself instead of simply effecting any wishes he might have had ─ and of course it's inexplicable how the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew might cry out on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and how all four gospel versions of Jesus didn't pray in the garden, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

 

[Andrew Stephen]

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Peace to all,

"Have you ever been to a mountain top?"

To me The Second Coming is The Transfiguration, through logic and rationale and through the Faith of Abraham.

To me in logic and faith, Two Persons of the Trinity make the Christ true God true man all becoming again One God in being. The Person of Jesus and The God of the Powers of Transformation is conceived from the Holy Spirit person in being and The God of the Powers of Glorificaton and Transfiguration becoming the Christ in all mankind from the Incorruptible Holy Spirit throught the Immortal Flesh of the New Eve through the Virgin Birth of the Christ, the "Firstborn of all Creation" becoming again glorified and transfigured into the image of the Creator and God for the Father and the Power of Creation and God.

The mind of God and the intelligence of Creation is conceived from the Person of the Holy Spirit and becomes through The Person of the Trinity and transformer of all life and holiness Jesus existing before creation was ever created was even created in the Immortal Flesh of the New Eve the Christ. The Person of the Holy Spirit and the Person of Jesus become fully God and fully man respectively. True God is the Person of Jesus from the mind of Creation conceived through Holy Spirit by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the God of the Powers of Glorification and Transfiguration becoming again the image of the Creator and God for the Father. And Jesus is True Man also conceived through the flesh from the Ark of the New Covenant through the New Eve from the Immaculate Conception through the Virgin Birth from the incorruptible Holy Spirit through the Immortal Flesh of The New Eve for the Christ.

Jesus and the Person of the Trinity is conceived from the Holy Spirit through the New Eve and Jesus is conceived from the New Eve in the Immortal flesh through the flesh of the New Eve of Jesus becoming the Christ for all souls becoming again in all mankind.

Like many Christian denominations, the church considers this second coming of Christ to be the final and eternal judgment by God of the people in every nation resulting in the glorification of some and the punishment of others. The concept is found in all the Canonical gospels, particularly the Gospel of Matthew.

The transfiguration is a preview of the future, when the Son of Man will come in glory to consummate his kingdom. But this future kingdom can only come through his death and resurrection, which is why Jesus warns the three disciples to “tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead” (Matt. 17:9)

“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Matt 13:43).

1. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

So the transfiguration wasn’t only a preview of the future; it was also a peek into eternity past at “the glory [Christ] had with [the Father] before the world existed” (John 17:5). It was a glimpse behind the veil at the glory that Christ continued to immutably possess, despite having hidden the glorious form of God beneath the humble form of a servant (Phil. 2:5–7).

3. He’s the Son (and Prophet) to Whom We Must Listen.​

Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, respectively, and their appearance continues Matthew’s portrayal of Jesus as the one who fulfills the Law and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17).

And in it we’re given a preview of what our lives will be like on that final mountain where we’ll all be transfigured (Matt. 13:43), where his glory will provide all the light we need (Rev. 21:23; 22:4–5), and where he will tabernacle not only with Moses and Elijah, but with all of his people (Rev. 21:3). That will be glory indeed.

John 17:3

“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

As the Son of Man, Jesus is certainly not equal to God. As the Son of God, he is God.

Truly God and Man in the New Eve from the Holy Spirit through The Immortal Flesh, sanctified and confirmed becoming transformed into immortality and incorruptibility becoming again glorified and transfigured and united in the Will of Creation.

The mind of God and the intelligence of Creation is conceived from the Person of the Holy Spirit and becomes through The Person of the Trinity and transformer of all life and holiness Jesus existing before creation was ever created was even created in the Immortal Flesh of the New Eve the Christ. The Person of the Holy Spirit and the Person of Jesus become fully God and fully man respectively. True God is the Person of Jesus from the mind of Creation conceived through Holy Spirit by the Power of the Holy Spirit and the God of the Powers of Glorification and Transfiguration becoming again the image of the Creator and God for the Father. And Jesus is True Man also conceived through the flesh from the Ark of the New Covenant through the New Eve from the Immaculate Conception through the Virgin Birth from the incorruptible Holy Spirit through the Immortal Flesh of The New Eve for the Christ.

And Baptism and Penance are the Sacraments of death to life in the flesh and spirit respectivly. We are Baptized from death to resurrection from the Holy Spirit throught the flesh for the souls of all beings becoming transformed imortality and incorruption from a failed spirit through the mortal felsh for the souls of all mankind. Baptism allows death and resurrection for glorified transfiguration from the Will of Creation and through The Person of the Holy Spirit becoming again into the image of Creation.

Do you say Jesus is both the servant of the God of Abraham, and the God of Abraham at the same time? The God of Abraham never renounced [his] covenant of circumcision, for instance, and when Paul did that, Paul created a new God, different to the God of the Tanakh's covenant.

To me the Host, from The New Covenant Living Sacrifice through The New Eve in New Living Temple becoming Transformed for The Body of Christ in all mankind becomes again Transfigured.

Peace always,
Stephen

Exodus Transfiguration

 

[blü 2]

The mind of God and the intelligence of Creation is conceived from the Person of the Holy Spirit and becomes through The Person of the Trinity and transformer of all life and holiness Jesus existing before creation was ever created was even created in the Immortal Flesh of the New Eve the Christ.

The version of Jesus presented by Paul in the NT, and the version of Jesus presented by John in the NT each was affected by Gnostic ideas, including that each was said to have pre-existed in heaven with God, and to have created the physical universe (regardless of the Genesis version).

This can't be true of Mark's Jesus, since Mark's Jesus is a normal Jewish male until his baptism by JtB, at which point the heavens open and God adopts him as [his] son, as [he] had earlier adopted David as [his] son (Psalm 2:7).

Nor is there any suggestion that the Jesus of Matthew, and the Jesus of Luke, each of whom are said by their respective authors to have come into being when God impregnated Mary, had any prior existence, let alone created the material world.

Jesus and the Person of the Trinity is conceived from the Holy Spirit through the New Eve and Jesus is conceived from the New Eve in the Immortal flesh through the flesh of the New Eve of Jesus becoming the Christ for all souls becoming again in all mankind.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing even vaguely like that in the NT that I'm aware of. There is for example no mention of the Trinity in the NT, where the role of each of the five versions of Jesus is that of God's envoy.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

Etymology. From French envoyé (“envoy, messenger”), from envoyer (“send”).
"If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" Jesus in the flesh of The New Eve through The Body of Mary.
To me, The Disciple that will never die is the Disciple he loves and He loves only with the most love through His Passion from the Cross, "Ecce Mater tua". We were there too, He spoke to us by name from the cross before we were born when He looks at you and at all mankind in real time from 33AD (Anno Domini, Latin for the beginning of Church time in 0AD when Mary says, "Let not my will but Your Will be done." The beginning of church time starts in 0AD when the Mind of God becomes to creation from teh Ark of the New Covenant through the New Eve for the Immaculate Conception in The Virgin Birth of the Christ). We can hear Jesus say, "Disciple, Behold your Mother" then He looks at His Mother and says, "Woman, behold your son or daughter" and we become the transformed Disciples He loves the most and we take Mary Home, just like John.

The logic and rationale and through the faith I see, We become from created into immortality and incorruption becoming again glorified and transfigured, from the logic and rationale and through the Faith of Abraham.

True blu2, and if written not even the world could contain all of the teachings in the divinity of Jesus as The Christ, logically and faithfully Two persons in One, becoming again, the Mind of God in the immortal flesh from the New Eve through the Powers of Glorification and Transfiguration in the incorruptible Holy Spirit Will of Creation that becomes the "Firstborn Christ of all Creation" becoming again for all.

So where do we go to get the answers for all? To the Word for me always answering the question from the fulfilled faith and morality of the Christ in "What would Jesus do in all cases of the Fulfilled Faith and Morality of the Christ."

Romans 11:36​

Romans understanding from logic and through faith in the Three Persons through the Powers from the Father through the Son in the Power of the Holy Spirit becoming One God in Being.
36 For from Him and through Him and in Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

To me, The Trinity is Three Powers each separate in the Powers of Creation, Transformation, Glorification and Transfiguration and each equal in the power of God and each equaling God together from the Father through the Son by the Power of the Holy Spirit and one God in Being.

To me We become again from the second coming, through logic in The Faith of Abraham.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[blü 2]

Quiet word aside, @Andrew Stephen ─ at the foot of each post on the RHS are the options Like, Quote, Reply. If you click on "Reply", then the person who posted that post will get a notification of the reply you write. I mention this because I only came on your post below by accident. I've put a @ in front of your net name above because that too will result in your being notified of this post. Just so you know ...

Etymology. From French envoyé (“envoy, messenger”), from envoyer (“send”).
"If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" Jesus in the flesh of The New Eve through The Body of Mary.

More accurately, it's a story about John's version of Jesus and Jesus' special affection for the otherwise unidentified "beloved disciple" (John 21:22). It's not mentioned anywhere else.

The logic and rationale and through the faith I see, We become from created into immortality and incorruption becoming again glorified and transfigured, from the logic and rationale and through the Faith of Abraham.

I can't find anything in the Tanakh to suggest that the faith of Abraham entailed anything like the later Greek-influenced views on post-mortal existence found in the NT.

So where do we go to get the answers for all?

We each have to find our own way, assuming we're the kind of person concerned about answers.

Romans 11:36

Romans 11:36 is about the god of Abraham, not about Jesus.

Don't you find Romans 11:32 kinky? "For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon them" ─ ? God as amoral gameplayer ...

To me, The Trinity is Three Powers each separate in the Powers of Creation, Transformation, Glorification and Transfiguration and each equal in the power of God and each equaling God together from the Father through the Son by the Power of the Holy Spirit and one God in Being.

The Trinity is found nowhere in the NT, of course. It doesn't become Christian doctrine till the 4th century CE.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Really, and truly, ‘No beginning’ cannot mean ’Before’, since there cannot be a ‘Before’ a ‘No Beginning’.

Before God started creating. Before God's first creations
God was God before He started the beginning of creation. First invisible creation, then visible creation

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Transfiguration was a VISION and Not a real happening - see Matthew 17:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

While this is true about Jesus seen at the right hand of God it is only one side of the revelation.
It is rather objective and the experience of the three-oneness of God is experiential and subjective.
For example Jesus says He and His Father, as a divine "We" will come and make an abode with His lovers.
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (John 14:23)
The human being within whom the Father and the Son as the Spirit have come to live within them can detect no seperation.
This is the corporate experience of Christians. Though the Son and the Father come as the Spirit to be "We" abiding in us, we cannot
detect any seperation.
Notice how Paul uses these titles in a seamless and interchangeable way about God indwelling the Christians.
But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness.
And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Romans 8:9-11)
The Spirit of God indwells them.
Yet the Spirit of God is the same as the Spirit of Christ who indwells them.
Yet the Spirit of Christ is the same as Christ Himself who indwells them.
Yet Christ Himself is the same as the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead who indwells them.
The Spirit of God equals the Spirit of Christ equals Christ equals the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.
Some of us have to consider this subjective indwelling of God along with the vision of Jesus sitting at the right hand of power or the right hand of God.

First of all I find even at KJV Psalm 104:30 that God's spirit is Not with an Upper-Case letter 's'
God's spirit is Not a person but an "it' - Numbers 11:17,25
Plus, how many thrones do you find at Revelation 3:21 ______________

 

[JerryMyers]

Yes it can. It can also mean to imbue, saturate, or "to fill".

NOT in the context of your statement, buddy!

You can twist, turn and bend yourself into a pretzel, but we all know that when you said ‘……. How Mary was impregnated’, you mean how Mary got physically pregnant. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out!

Moreover, I told you God does NOT beget which you disagree and to prove your point that God beget, and Jesus is the begotten Son of God literally, you came out with this nonsense -

1. The only begotten Son of Frog is Frog.
2. The only begotten Son of Dog is Dog.
3. The only begotten Son of Man is Man.
4. The only begotten Son of God is ______?
Remember???

Why did you come out with such nonsense if you are NOT implying that the only way Jesus is the begotten Son is, like the frog, dog, and man, by God physically beget/impregnated Mary???

No, I never made such an implication. In fact, I specifically stated the opposite:

I showed you the video, but to answer your question directly, God does not physically beget Mary and I am not sure how this would make her "pregnant with Jesus" if He did.

You said “God does not physically beget Mary” ONLY AFTER I have told you there’s nothing in the video to suggest any physical beget took place!! Before that, you believed God physically beget Mary and that’s why you used the word ‘impregnated’.

So, stop fooling us and yourself! Why even waste my time with a video that does not even support your ‘how Mary was impregnated’ theory??!

I will explain it as I explained it to blu:

Jesus is the eternally preexistent SON of God who took the form of man:

Jesus says, "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father" (John 16: 28-33)

IS THAT your explanation of how Jesus became ‘the begotten S/son’???? Because Jesus said he came from the Father and he left the world and went to the Father???!

Buddy, read your Bible!

We all came from God because ‘God created mankind, male and female He created them’. If God created mankind, then man came from God….. And when we leave this world we all will return to God Almighty – “And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it” – Ecclesiastes 12:7 NIV.

As the Son of Man, Jesus is certainly not equal to God. As the Son of God, he is God.

Prove this from your scripture that Jesus said or implied he is equal to God and/or he is full- man and full God. If you can’t, then you are just ‘spitting’ nonsense…again!

Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

When Jesus spoke these words, who exactly was worshiping him at the time? It certainly wasn't Christians, and he's clearly addressing the Pharisees.

Are you implying that no one was worshiping Jesus as God at that time??

I agree, and that only proves Jesus NEVER preached he’s God in his lifetime on earth, and this belief ‘Jesus is God’ only came much, much later AFTER the departure of Jesus, which means YOU follow the commandments of men.

God has ALWAYS been the way, and the truth, and the life. There is no other way, and the way of man is NOT the way of God. We are all fallen sinners.

God is NOT the way, God is THE FINAL destination that we all are trying to reach, and prophets in their respective lifetime, are the ways guiding us to the truth (of God Almighty) and the (everlasting) life.

Of course. He pre-existed with God and did nothing but what he saw his Father doing.

Jesus did NOT pre-exist with God in the literal sense, but he preexisted in the plan and the Mind of God, just as we all are. Likewise, it was God who appointed Jeremiah as a prophet before he existed - “Before I formed you in the womb before you were born I knew you I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” – Jeremiah 1:5

We all ‘preexisted’ in the plan and the Mind of God long before we existed.

We are unable to see God. No man can see God and live.

Yes. No man can see God, and Jesus is a man or as he likes to refer to himself as the son of man….. and the son of a man IS a man.

Yes, by knowing Jesus we know God. He is the perfect reflection of the Father, having come forth from Him. (John 16: 28-33)

Which again tells us Jesus is NOT God, but a prophet sent by God.

Correct!
But we don't see or know God Almighty as Jesus sees and knows him. We need Jesus as our intermediary.

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known”

Correct!
Not just Jesus, but all prophets see and know God better than any of us and all prophets are the intermediary between people and God in their respective lifetimes.

And for the verse you quoted from 1 Corinthians 13:12, yes. at the moment (for now) our understanding of truth and God is limited and we do not see the whole picture. In the future when the divine truth begins to unfold itself part by part, we begin to have a better understanding of truth and God, and finally, there will come a time when we will have complete knowledge of the divine truth akin to how God fully knows us (as also I am known).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The only-begotten Son of God is: God's Son
Angelic creation are sons of God, or God's sons but never are they God
Hebrews 5:5-7; Hebrews3:1

 

[Soapy]

First of all I find even at KJV Psalm 104:30 that God's spirit is Not with an Upper-Case letter 's'
God's spirit is Not a person but an "it' - Numbers 11:17,25
Plus, how many thrones do you find at Revelation 3:21 ______________

And who would come to dwell in the believers: GOD and CHRIST.

God and Christ make TWO PEOPLE… yet the posters claims a THREE PERSON God… how’s that?

‘I and the Father are one’ - how does that make a three person God.

‘And [Stephen] told them, “Look, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] standing in the place of honor at God’s right hand!”’ (Acts 7:56)
TWO… God and Jesus Christ. STANDING position is SUPPORTIVE position AT the right hand of the one who is one who is in authority. E.g. David, at the right hand of Saul - Saul, who is king of Israel at the time.

Thrones, yes, you are right to state it: Where does anything in scriptures claim a throne for a third person who is God?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

King Solomon ruled over the Israelites, God’s people, in the tenth century B.C. However, the unwise actions of his son Rehoboam led to a schism in which the kingdom was split into the northern kingdom of Israel and the southern kingdom of Judah, each with its own king.

Both kingdoms devolved into corruption and sin, despite repeated warnings from prophets sent by God — prophets such as Jeremiah.

Peace to all,

‘"I and the Father are one’ - how does that make a three person God?"
In logic and through faith, the Mind of God in the Flesh is the Holy Spirit Person in being conceived in the Person of Jesus as The Christ. The Christ is the same Mind of conscience of the Father as the conceived Will of Creation through the Flesh of Jesus becoming the First Christ on Earth through death and resurrection becoming again into the image of creation together with the Father as one in being. What has just happened is the miracle of the transfiguration from created corrupt from the spirit throught the mortal flesh for the souls of all manking that becomes the Christ in all mankind and is the Mind of God through the flesh for the souls of all mankind becoming again together as one in being transfigured as one in being together from the Holy Spirit person in being through the flesh of Jesus for the souls of all mankind together with the Father throguh the Son for the souls of all beings.

The only-begotten Son of God is: God's Son
Angelic creation are spirits with souls of God becoming again glorified and transfigured through the Flesh of Christ.
Hebrews 5:5-7; Hebrews3:1

In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”


God was God before He started the beginning of creation. First invisible creation created the Angels, then visible creation in created in the flesh and the world earth and the universe. First God created the Angels, then God created Mankind in the flesh, mankind is created from the spirit through the created flesh for the created souls of all created beings in the Body of Christ.

Souls exist and are created. The spirit is blown into the soul at crartion. The Spirit is a power or a force to some beliefs but to the Catholics, the Spirit is a person in being created through the flesh that becomes and becomes again. The Spirit manifests through the flesh for the soul from the choice of the spirit and manifestation becomes from the spirit to the soul of angels with no flesh. Penance and atonement is not possible without flesh through the good works of salvation to become again because angels have no flesh to do the good works of salvation for the becomings from through and for the Christ.

The Angels know of teh coming power of mankings flesh in The New Heaven and Earth, Heaven.

This is how flesh will save the angels. Salvation is from the Holy Spirit Person in being through flesh of Jesus and God becoming teh Christ for the souls of all Sons and Daughters of God to become again, through the atonement of sin forgiven in Confession and hearing the words of absoultion forgiven in Penance and Sacrifice and re-Sanctified and Confirmed through the Host in Communion with Him we become again into the Image of The Creator and God for the Father and God.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Soapy]

The only-begotten Son of God is: God's Son
Angelic creation are sons of God, or God's sons but never are they God
Hebrews 5:5-7; Hebrews3:1

Correct. All angels are SONS OF GOD but some who rebelled are ‘Fallen Sons’… the rest remain ‘Holy/Heavenly’ Sons of God.

Humans are ‘Fleshly/Earthly’ Sons of God IF they are ‘fully doers of the works of God’.
The ONLY human being who FULLY carried out the works of God is JESUS CHRIST, hence he, and he alone, is called ‘Son of God’, and more importantly, ‘The Only Son of God’… yet, in time to come, those whom God has pre-chosen from before the beginning OF CREATION, will also become ‘Sons of God’:

• ‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—‘ (John 1:12)
• ‘For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.’ (Romans 8:14)

 

[Andrew Stephen]

• ‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—‘ (John 1:12)
• ‘For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.’ (Romans 8:14)

Peace to all,

Choice
Jesus is Not God?
Jesus is God.

The Will of Creation and The Mind of God delivered to all through the Person of the Holy Spirit in being is to me awesome becoming power.

Some ask, what must we do to be from born created, imaged from the corrupt spirit through mortal flesh for all souls becoming sanctified, reborn Baptized, transformed, immortalized and made incorruptible, saved forgiven, re-Sactified, Confirmed, reimaged glorified and transfigured?

The ONLY human being who FULLY carried out the works of God is JESUS CHRIST, hence Jesus, and Jesus as One in the Mind of God and the Holy Spirit in Person conceived in Jesus the Person in the Immotal Flesh of the New Eve become one in being, The Christ and is called ‘Son of God’, and more importantly, ‘The Only Son of God’… yet, in time to come, those whom God has pre-chosen from before the beginning OF CREATION, will also become ‘Sons of God.

To me those that did receive Him are the angels in Heaven upon hearing His plan, before the creation of the world and before the creation of mankind in the flesh, God is to place mankind in heaven above the angels in Heaven and have the angels be Mankinds' servants.

To me Jesus is Truly God and Man.
To me those lead by the spirit are created and through manifestation from the Holy Spirit becoming the transformed Immortal and Incorruptible Flesh from the New Eve through the Intelligence of Creation and the Will of God The Father from the Person of the Holy Spirit and God through the Person and God Jesus for becoming again through glorification and transfiguration into the image of Creation for The Father and One God in being.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.................................................................................................................................................
God and Christ make TWO PEOPLE… yet the posters claims a THREE PERSON God… how’s that?
‘I and the Father are one’ - how does that make a three person God ...................................................................

Also, besides Not making three persons we can find at John 17:11, 22-23 that Jesus prayed to God that his followers be one as he and his Father are one:
They were one in: confidence, teaching, goal, faith, unity, belief, trust, agreement, common purpose, co-operation...............
Thus, Jesus was Not praying that Jesus and God and his followers all be one God

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct. All angels are SONS OF GOD but some who rebelled are ‘Fallen Sons’… the rest remain ‘Holy/Heavenly’ Sons of God.
Humans are ‘Fleshly/Earthly’ Sons of God IF they are ‘fully doers of the works of God’.
The ONLY human being who FULLY carried out the works of God is JESUS CHRIST, hence he, and he alone, is called ‘Son of God’, and more importantly, ‘The Only Son of God’… yet, in time to come, those whom God has pre-chosen from before the beginning OF CREATION, will also become ‘Sons of God’:

• ‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—‘ (John 1:12)
• ‘For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.’ (Romans 8:14)

I notice there are sons of God and there is: God's Son ( singular )
In other words, angelic sons are sons of God or God's sons ( plural)
However, Jesus is God's Son, and Not just God's son as the angels are sons
Just as KJV has God's spirit with a lower-case 's' at Psalm 104:30; Psalm 143:10 see also KJV Job 33:4
Translators chose to use an Upper-Case 'S' for spirit of God ,etc. when God's spirit is Not a person, Not a proper name.

Pre-chosen before the beginning of Creation, or rather as Jesus said at Matthew 23:35 linking the foundation to Abel - Hebrews 11:4
Since Jesus was the first (Rev. 3:14 B) then pre-human Jesus is part of the 'us' at Genesis 1:26 ( Proverbs 8:30 )
Kind of like God hanging out a sign saying: Father & Son, inc.
But with the Father still being THE Creator according to Jesus at Rev. 4:11

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Correct. All angels are SONS OF GOD but some who rebelled are ‘Fallen Sons’… the rest remain ‘Holy/Heavenly’ Sons of God.
Humans are ‘Fleshly/Earthly’ Sons of God IF they are ‘fully doers of the works of God’.
The ONLY human being who FULLY carried out the works of God is JESUS CHRIST, hence he, and he alone, is called ‘Son of God’, and more importantly, ‘The Only Son of God’… yet, in time to come, those whom God has pre-chosen from before the beginning OF CREATION, will also become ‘Sons of God’:

• ‘Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—‘ (John 1:12)
• ‘For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.’ (Romans 8:14)

Please notice KJV at Galatians 4:4-7 because it has sons with a lower-case 's' concerning human life
Only God's Son aka Christ Jesus is properly with an Upper-Case letter "S" for Son ( singular )
Thus, KJV uses the lower-case "s" at Romans 8:14 B, 19 - sons, and Not Sons with a capital S

 

[Oeste]

I didn't ask you that. I asked how, exactly, the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke (the only two virgin versions) acquired their Y-chromosome. Mary's ovum had to be fertilized in a manner her evolved Homo sapiens body could cope with and react to, so any alien influences would need to be minimized.

I'm not sure if you completely understand what we mean by "incarnation" or for the Word to become flesh. When the Word became flesh, the Word became Man. His Y chromosome came from the same place his arm, leg, feet and hands came from. It came from God and not from any man.

Also, as I have been repeatedly telling you, the Jesus of Matthew and Jesus of Luke is the SAME Jesus found throughout the New Testament. I am amazed how one could possibly arrive at a plethora of Jesuses.

Jesus says, "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father" (John 16: 28-33)

That of course is not Jesus saying "I am God" ─ nor would he, considering the number of times

It's saying Jesus is God.

Jesus didn't come forth from the heavens. He specifically came forth from the Father.

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men".

Sure, the "Kenosis hymn". That 'robbery' as a translation of Philippians 2:6 ─
2:6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷis colorful, but the TR text says nothing of the kind, as you can see.

Literally, "Who in the form of God existing..."

So yes, Jesus is God.

I'm simply telling you what the NT says ─ that there are five versions of Jesus in the NT and they have irreconcilable differences. I assume you live in a free country where you're free to rewrite documents out of copyright any way that pleases you, so go ahead, however pleases you.

Well you are certainly telling us what you believe the NT says. If you believe it says there are 5 Jesuses, then there will be 5 for you.

Cheap shot unless you provide specifics, I'd say.

I was referring to the multi Jesus theory you were promoting.

I did not present the premise "Jesus is Not God". That's in the title line of the OP, and it's not evidenced. I think a proffered premise, as a bare minimum, needs at least a modicum of support before requiring the world to rush out and rebut it.

But at least it accords with NT, as I've pointed out. Jesus has to wait till the 4th century to become Triune, which as we seem to agree is an incoherent way to be,

It accords with nothing in the NT, except perhaps with what the Pharisees were espousing, and I seem to remember that Tertullian, as far as we know, was the first to mention Triune at least 200 years prior to Nicaea and there was nothing "incoherent" about his statement.

You refresh your knowledge of the EM spectrum eg via Wikipedia >Electromagnetic spectrum - Wikipedia<. You take this unfortunate blind person to a source of heat, perhaps a stove top. You help the person (safely) feel the heat. You then explain that you can detect heat, just as the eye can detect other frequencies of the EM spectrum.

I am referring to a blind person from birth, and while this may help him to learn that we associate heat with a particular color, it doesn't help him see the color at all.

Goodness, didn't you read all the quotes I've referred you to again and again?

How many times must I rebut them?

 

[Oeste]

The Trinity defined logically, rationally and through the Faith of Abraham, becomes, Each God is separate and equal in power and One God in being, equal in the Powers of Creation from The Father and Transformation through The Son and Glorification and Transfiguration by the Power of The Holy Spirit Person in being and together becomes again as One God in Being for All.

Hi @Andrew Stephen ,

Thank you for joining this thread, and I look forward to reading more of your perspectives and how Jesus is God.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

"Jesus is Christ incarnate and Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, not Mary. Mary is neither the begotten son of frog, son of dog, Son of Man, or Son of God." Oeste

Peace to all,

True, Oeste, And Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, bring forth the New Living Sacrifice, the Body blood soul and divinity of God through the New Temple of The Living God as The Christ in our own flesh and soul becoming again the image of Creation for the Father and God in all mankind. Mary is true God and True man in the flesh just like Her Son Jesus and just like us, all mankind in the mind of God incorruptible from the Holy Spirit transformed immortal in the flesh becoming again, glorified and transfigured in Her Assuption unto Heaven. Mary, from the Holy Spirit through immortal flesh in the Immaculate Conception becomes the First Christ on earth in the Will of Creation when Mary says, "Let not my will but Your will be done." We see Mary logically and physically and faithfully as the First Disciple of Christ, and Mother of God in the Holy Spirit delivery to all through the Ark from Heaven, and physical sister of Jesus in the flesh through the Virgin Birth, death, descention and glorified and transfigured resurrection of Her Son and we see Mary as the Mother of God in all mankind delivering the shared intelligence of Creation from the Power of Holy Spirit Person in being through The Christ or all, conceived from the Person of Jesus from Mary's immaculate immortal flesh for all mankind's incorruptible souls making The Christ Truly God and Truly Man through Jesus to whom we are all brothers and sisters in the flesh. And all mankind becomes again as one in being with the One God in being, together. We know we see all mankind as Sons and Daughters of God.

Peace always,
Stephen