Jesus is under subjection to God.

[Mountain_Climber]

Absolutely not! We ARE born with a sin nature! We are prone to sin. If not, we would not sin. Jesus had the same nature as us. "Sin by it's own nature, corrupts our natural nature?" What is that all about..... Sin does not have it's own nature. Our natural nature is prone to sin. We have a sin nature, we are prone to sin. We sin.


.

Prove it from the scriptures. I say all you can do is quote scriptures which once thoroughly inspected prove to say something else.

Bet you cannot prove it.

 

[.kaleb]

! Corinthians 15:50 merely means that flesh and blood do not qualify one as a registered tenant in the kingdom that is of or from heaven. The word, kleronomeo (inherit), speaks not to a litteral placement of the person but of that person's right to enter so as to have residence. And man can only enter the kingdom of heaven by cleaning up his spirit so that his spirit is holy after the image of God. A man cannot qualify by means of flesh and blood as apart from a holy spirit his flesh remains corrupt.

Interesting you should say that. The apostle Paul often spoke of his upward calling whilst still on earth. In PHILLIPIANS 3:13,14 Paul says: Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

Later as he became more sure of his future, he wrote to Timothy, in chapter 4:8: From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.
Paul had qualified to enter into heaven as a spirit being, and receive his reward, at some later date.

Jesus referred to that principle, here: Matthew 23:26 "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also."

Be patient and one day they will understand that.

That applies to everyone conscious of their spiritual need, not just those hoping to join Christ in heaven.

 

[.kaleb]

Prove it from the scriptures. I say all you can do is quote scriptures which once thoroughly inspected prove to say something else.

Bet you cannot prove it.

Tho this was directed at moorea, I felt obligated to respond. Understanding the nature of Christ and the nature of Adam is pivotal in understanding the ransom.
Adam was created sinless, as was Jesus. Adam was created as a living soul on earth, as was Jesus. It is in this way that Jesus had the same "nature" as us.
Pul explains in (Byington) 1Timothy 3:16 And, recognizedly, piety’s secret is a great one: “he who was manifested in flesh, was vindicated in spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed in the world, was taken up in glory.”
Also in (King James Version) Philippians 2:7 Paul writes: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Sin, like an inherent disease, was passed down to all of us courtesy of Adam. Romans 5:2 explains (King James Version) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jesus came to make possible for our sinful nature to be changed.
Jesus was tempted many times to do what is wrong. Unlike Adam, he kept integrity and loyalty to God, even till death. In this way he made it possible for future humankind to have back, what Adam lost, that being eternal life on this planet, and to be reconciled with Jehovah.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I just had to reply to this even though its an older post. JW is saying Jesus is not God And He is in union with His Father. You are saying you are not your wife and you are in union with her. When Jesus came, He represented His Father so whatever words came from His mouth were of His Father's. Likewise, you go to the bank and tell the clerk you want to withdrawal X amount of money from your wife's account because you share accounts you represent her.

I did not catch if you believed Jesus is God or not, if you do your post seem to support what JW is saying about Christ. "Jesus is God' Christians" seem to be taking a literal approach that Jesus is the Father. However, like the analogy you gave, you and your wife are distinct people no matter the "concept" or way you are related to each other, likewise with Christ....God and Christ are two distinct indivisuals no matter how close they relate to each other.

"As One" is like a marriage between two distinct parties and they are still distinct even though they are One in marriage.

How? My marriage has two distinct persons -- 1) my wife, 2) me -- yet it's one marriage, each person being coequal in the relationship. When I go to the bank to make a deposit, I represent both of us. I am, in effect, "the Jones family." It's not a contradiction.

Can you tell me how anyone can see Jesus as literally God when marriage does not mean one becomes the other?

 

[.kaleb]

I just had to reply to this even though its an older post. JW is saying Jesus is not God And He is in union with His Father. You are saying you are not your wife and you are in union with her. When Jesus came, He represented His Father so whatever words came from His mojth were of His Father. Likewise, you go to the bank and tell the clerk you want to withdrawal X amount of money from your wife's account because you share accounts you represent her.

I did not catch if you believed Jesus is God or not, if you do your post seem to support what JW is saying about Christ. "Jesus is God' Christians" seem to be taking a literal approach that Jesus is the Father. However, like the analogy you gave, you and your wife are distinct people no matter the "concept" or way you are related to each other, likewise with Christ....God and Christ are two distinct indivisuals no matter how close they relate to each other.

"As One" is like a marriage between two distinct parties and they are still distinct even though they are One in marriage.


Can you tell me how anyone can see Jesus as literally God when marriage does not mean one becomes the other?

It seems so simple when explained like that. I happen to agree with you, but not all see it that way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It seems so simple when explained like that. I happen to agree with you, but not all see it that way.

Yep. I mean, I get what the other party is saying hypothetically...but logically, I just dont understand.

 

[sojourner]

Can you tell me how anyone can see Jesus as literally God when marriage does not mean one becomes the other?

The two become one flesh...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The two become one flesh...

According to your analogy (and scripture) they are one in spirit or nature. They are not each other. Jesus-is-God folks are saying he is literally not just spiritually the Father. If you are not your wife how can Christ be His Father? Same logic. Based on the analogy

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Tho this was directed at moorea, I felt obligated to respond. Understanding the nature of Christ and the nature of Adam is pivotal in understanding the ransom.
Adam was created sinless, as was Jesus. Adam was created as a living soul on earth, as was Jesus. It is in this way that Jesus had the same "nature" as us.
Pul explains in (Byington) 1Timothy 3:16 And, recognizedly, piety’s secret is a great one: “he who was manifested in flesh, was vindicated in spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed in the world, was taken up in glory.”
Also in (King James Version) Philippians 2:7 Paul writes: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Sin, like an inherent disease, was passed down to all of us courtesy of Adam. Romans 5:2 explains (King James Version) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jesus came to make possible for our sinful nature to be changed.
Jesus was tempted many times to do what is wrong. Unlike Adam, he kept integrity and loyalty to God, even till death. In this way he made it possible for future humankind to have back, what Adam lost, that being eternal life on this planet, and to be reconciled with Jehovah.

Now be honest about where sin entered at Romans 5:2. Where does it clearly say that sin entered, into man or into the world?

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Interesting you should say that. The apostle Paul often spoke of his upward calling whilst still on earth. In PHILLIPIANS 3:13,14 Paul says: Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

Later as he became more sure of his future, he wrote to Timothy, in chapter 4:8: From this time on, there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not to me only, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.
Paul had qualified to enter into heaven as a spirit being, and receive his reward, at some later date.



That applies to everyone conscious of their spiritual need, not just those hoping to join Christ in heaven.

The phrase "upward calling" does not at all prove he means he is going to live in heaven itself. That is a comparison to our formerly debased condition to the high call to be holy as he is holy.

You spin your wheels because rather than think it through you would rather defend an idea that you have accepted.

 

[.kaleb]

Now be honest about where sin entered at Romans 5:2. Where does it clearly say that sin entered, into man or into the world?

Now be honest about where sin entered at Romans 5:2. Where does it clearly say that sin entered, into man or into the world?

*Romans 5:12 not 2.
12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned
(King James Version)Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[.kaleb]

The phrase "upward calling" does not at all prove he means he is going to live in heaven itself. That is a comparison to our formerly debased condition to the high call to be holy as he is holy.

You spin your wheels because rather than think it through you would rather defend an idea that you have accepted.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But you would have to provide very convincing conclusions to make me see what Paul said in a different light. I'm yet to see it.

 

[.kaleb]

The two become one flesh...

In what sense?
Genesis 2:24 says: That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

Is man and wife literally one flesh?
Is God and Jesus one flesh?
How can you reconcile that statement with 1 Corinthians 15:50 (King James Version) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[sojourner]

According to your analogy (and scripture) they are one in spirit or nature. They are not each other. Jesus-is-God folks are saying he is literally not just spiritually the Father. If you are not your wife how can Christ be His Father? Same logic. Based on the analogy

According to orthodoxy, the Son and the Father are both God. But the Son is not the Father -- they are two Persons; one Being. Just like two people; one marriage.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Othorodox distinguishes between the definition of God and that of the Father? If so, that makes more sense than calling Jesus Father. If He was, Hed be a Father to Himself.

According to orthodoxy, the Son and the Father are both God. But the Son is not the Father -- they are two Persons; one Being. Just like two people; one marriage.

 

[Muffled]

What I'm saying is that theology does not have to have a factual base in order to work.

I can't say I believe in make believe religion whether it works or not.

 

[Muffled]

According to orthodoxy, the Son and the Father are both God. But the Son is not the Father -- they are two Persons; one Being. Just like two people; one marriage.

I believe there are not two people but only one person. For instance if Ihave had ten previous lives that would mean ten persons but I consider myself only one person in ten bodies. The Spirit of God is one person in and out of the body. Now if God has multiple physical manifestations then one can see God as multiple persons and that probably is the case with the Paraclete more or less.

 

[Muffled]

You have said that on a few occasions now, so could you then reconcile your reasoning with:
1/(American Standard Version)1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh,but made alive in the spirit;

• sojourner, is Jesus now a spirit (being what angels are), or is he physical, in other words flesh and blood?

2/ (King James Version) 1Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

• if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, how do you say that the resurrected Jesus is both fully human, and fully divine?

I beleve Jesus is like us in having a physical body and a spirit. He is different from us because His spirit is the Spirit of God. I haven't seen direct proof that angels are spirits only but there does seem to be plenty of evidence that angels inhabit physical bodies. There is absolutely no evidence that Jesus is an angel.

It matters not because Jesus has the Spirit of God in Him He is in the spiritual kingdom and King of it.

 

[moorea944]

Prove it from the scriptures. I say all you can do is quote scriptures which once thoroughly inspected prove to say something else.

Bet you cannot prove it.

Sorry for the long post, but we ARE born with a sin nature. And yes, I can prove it. IT's all in the bible.

All men are mortal, dying creatures because they inherit from Adam a nature that is mortal and also prone to sin. This is not a crime and for it men are not guilty. In time, however, all men do sin and become guilty before God. Because all men are descendents of Adam, he is therefore a "federal head".

Romans 5v12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
1 Cor 15v21-22 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Jesus had the same nature that he got from his mother. He was like us. Hebrews 2v14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"
Romans 8v3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Jesus did not sin, because God was working through His son. (Acts 2). Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible. "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel."
The mistake that you made on your post was that it is often made in reference to the principle of sin in the flesh is that guilt must be assigned wherever there is sin. That is a huge mistake. There are two categories of sin. Sin itself is simply the absence of righteousness (1 John 5:17). The two categories of sin are the transgressions of divine law (which does assign personal guilt) and sin nature (which assigns no guilt whatsoever). This is because of the divine judgment of death in Eden for that first sin. That was a judgment of death nature, not immediate execution. Mankind was degraded from a non-dying (but obviously not immortal) nature into a guaranteed dying nature (mortality). At that time the serpent philosophy that they chose over God's right-ness, became an active force in them... which is why temptations issue from within us. We don't need a serpent to tempt us anymore, because of our serpent nature. This is why Jesus was depicted as the bronze serpent that saved the Israelites from a horrible death from the venom of the sand viper in the wilderness (Num 21:9; John 3:14-15).

The signature doctrine of the antichrist system was prophesied to be the denial of the "flesh" of Christ (1 John 4:3, 2 Jn vs 7). That "flesh" of Christ is massively significant. This is why the memorial bread (broken before ingesting) represents that "flesh" of Christ and the temple veil torn from heaven to earth exactly at the point of the death of Jesus represents the "flesh" of Christ (Heb. 10:19-20). That "flesh" of Christ was where sin resided, prompting the temptations he endured but without failure (Heb. 4:15). Jesus was "made sin" at his birth. Because Jesus never allowed sin to "conceive" from the guilt free temptation stage into the guilt assignment of transgressional sin, he condemned that sin in his flesh through his voluntary death by crucifixion. This act declared God was "right" to demand death for sin. The death of Jesus declared the righteousness of his Father, just as the baptism of Jesus (projecting his death and resurrection) declared the righteousness of his Father (Matt 3:14-15).

So you see, we do have a sin nature. We are prone to sin. Jesus had the same nature as us, but did not sin. He "had to be like us" to conquer sin in the flesh.

 

[sojourner]

I can't say I believe in make believe religion whether it works or not.

All religion is, in a sense, make believe, because any theological constructions and understanding of God is not definitional, but descriptive from a subjective standpoint.