Jesus is under subjection to God.

[Sculelos]

Jesus is not infinite. He is the physical part of God the finite part of God, but he is not the invisible infinite part. Jesus is less then God. God is greater then Jesus, Jesus said this himself.

Some Biblical support.

Hebrews Chapter 1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Corinthians 15:14-28
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus is God. Therefore, God cannot be greater than Jesus. The Father can supersede the Son, but that's an entirely different thing.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus is not infinite. He is the physical part of God the finite part of God, but he is not the invisible infinite part. Jesus is less then God. God is greater then Jesus, Jesus said this himself.

Some Biblical support.

Hebrews Chapter 1

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

John 14:28
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

1 Corinthians 15:14-28
And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I believe Jesus taken as a whole is not infinite but the Spirit of God that is in Jesus is.

I believe there is no physical part of God.

As stated in post #2 Jesus is God and God can't be less than God.

I have never seen a statement by Him to this extent.

Please explain why you think those verses apply to what you said.

 

[Sculelos]

Jesus is God. Therefore, God cannot be greater than Jesus. The Father can supersede the Son, but that's an entirely different thing.

The Father was before Jesus was. The Father is spirit while Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. God has MORE power then Jesus but yet Jesus is God but yet, only the physical part of God.

It's kinda like us, we are part of God and we are part of Jesus, but we are only a small part. We will never be greater then Jesus, nor God because they are our creators.

I believe Jesus taken as a whole is not infinite but the Spirit of God that is in Jesus is.

I believe there is no physical part of God.

As stated in post #2 Jesus is God and God can't be less than God.

I have never seen a statement by Him to this extent.

Please explain why you think those verses apply to what you said.

God is infinite, God's love is infinite. God loves Jesus and will love him for all eternity. Therefore Jesus and all those who follow Jesus will be alive forevermore after judgement.

Jesus is part of God but not all of God. God is the combination of everything that exist will exist and has existed and also that which does not exist.

God is infinite he has no boundaries, no limitations. Jesus is physical and does have boundaries and limitations placed on him by God.

Jesus is God, but only the physical manifestation of God. God is everything.

For proof re-read the scriptures I posted. If you don't believe them, you simply don't believe in the word of God nor Jesus which is the physical mirror image of the invisible God.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

The Father and the Son are equal in substance.

They have different roles, however, and such would make one believe one was superior to the other, but this is not the case. The Father is the eternal originator of the Trinity.

And the Father did not exist before the Son. The Father eternally begets the Son.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

I AM indicates the Name of God. Jesus existed before the world, with the Father. The Father is the originator of the Trinity. However, the Son has always eternally been begotten by the Father and the Spirit eternally proceeding from the Father. So the Father did not exist before the Son or the Spirit.

Jesus does not have physical limits. Despite living on the earth in a fleshly body, His divine nature was still omnipresent, omnipotent and bearing all of those qualities of God. Nevertheless, Jesus now has a glorified body, and it is not limited by space and time.

Matthew 19:17 is actually used to support the notion that Jesus was God, because Jesus says elsewhere, in John 10:11, that He is the 'good shepherd'.

Hebrews 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 merely demonstrate that the Father and Son have different roles.

 

[Windwalker]

The Father is the originator of the Trinity. However, the Son has always eternally been begotten by the Father and the Spirit eternally proceeding from the Father. So the Father did not exist before the Son or the Spirit.

To put it in other terms, the Father is causal Emptiness, the Son is subtle-level manifestation, the Spirit is the nondual manifestation of emptiness in all form (the paradox of the infinite changeless in finite change). Subtle, Causal, Nondual. Son, Father, Spirit.

Jesus is the changing form in a gross-level body, as yours or mine. The Son is the eternal radiance of eternal emptiness, the "express image of the Father". The Son, the subtle-level 'face of God' was manifest in the gross-level body, "the Logos became flesh". "I and my Father are One", is nondual Spirit, that there is no duality, no separation or distinction between the subtle and causal. It is a statement of nonduality. "I pray that they may be one as we are one", is that through Spirit, we realize we are all One, as the Son as in the Father, and the Father in the Son in nonduality. Spirit is nondual.

What we're dealing with is a paradox of nonduality. Trying to define it as one thing is duality. Chew on that awhile.

 

[Aamer]

So confusing! So complicated!

 

[Windwalker]

So confusing! So complicated!

If God can be understood, then is it God or our idea?

 

[sojourner]

The Father was before Jesus was.

John 1.

 

[Sculelos]

John 1.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'd like to say, in the beginning was Jesus and He was the Word and the Word was God. God the Father however had NO beginning.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does begotten mean? I know it means: To cause to exist or occur

If God caused Jesus to exist or occur then God must be greater then Jesus as Jesus said (read first post).

This is the only truth about the matter.

 

[Windwalker]

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'd like to say, in the beginning was Jesus and He was the Word and the Word was God. God the Father however had NO beginning.

Verse 14. "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" The Word became Jesus. Jesus was a man. What was that that became flesh? Not Jesus, but the Logos.

If God caused Jesus to exist or occur then God must be greater then Jesus as Jesus said (read first post).

This is the only truth about the matter.

God did not cause the Logos to exist.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I'd like to say, in the beginning was Jesus and He was the Word and the Word was God. God the Father however had NO beginning.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What does begotten mean? I know it means: To cause to exist or occur

If God caused Jesus to exist or occur then God must be greater then Jesus as Jesus said (read first post).

This is the only truth about the matter.

Revelation 22:13 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

^Jesus speaking to John in Revelation.

Jesus is the first and the last. He is eternal.

So, how can the Father have begotten Him? Because He was eternally begotten. There wasn't some fixed point at which the Son came into existence. And why should the Father begetting the Son imply the Father is greater than the Son? Isn't that just your opinion? There was no point at which there was only the Father, and then the Son was begotten. The Father was and is eternally begetting the Son. It isn't a matter of cause and effect.

Like I said, the Trinity has different roles, but are equal in substance.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Jesus is God. Therefore, God cannot be greater than Jesus. The Father can supersede the Son, but that's an entirely different thing.

I thought all parts of the Trinity were equal - one soul, many forms. Unless you mean the Trinity all together can supersede the Son, then yes.

 

[Sculelos]

Revelation 22:13 - I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

^Jesus speaking to John in Revelation.

Jesus is the first and the last. He is eternal.

So, how can the Father have begotten Him? Because He was eternally begotten. There wasn't some fixed point at which the Son came into existence. And why should the Father begetting the Son imply the Father is greater than the Son? Isn't that just your opinion? There was no point at which there was only the Father, and then the Son was begotten. The Father was and is eternally begetting the Son. It isn't a matter of cause and effect.

Like I said, the Trinity has different roles, but are equal in substance.

That is Jesus talking to John. And indeed Jesus DOES have a beginning and an end because he is the physical image of God who has NO beginning and NO end.

The machine (The Holy Spirit) knows all.

Edit: To be a little more specific I must say, that when I say beginning and end, I'm talking in the physical. Not about Time Jesus had a beginning when God created him and his death was his end, yet God raised him up due to his obedience, therefore if we follow in his example and do what God ask of us we will have life-everlasting if we do as God and Jesus have commanded of us.

 

[outhouse]

John 1.

He is POE brother.

Just here to play games.

 

[Sculelos]

He is POE brother.

Just here to play games.

I seen you say that before. What do you mean?

Is POE like saying someone is only "Point of Evidence"? Meaning they only take proof as concrete and won't accept debate by itself? Or is your meaning something else entirely?

 

[Muffled]

The Father was before Jesus was. The Father is spirit while Jesus is the physical manifestation of God. God has MORE power then Jesus but yet Jesus is God but yet, only the physical part of God.

It's kinda like us, we are part of God and we are part of Jesus, but we are only a small part. We will never be greater then Jesus, nor God because they are our creators.



God is infinite, God's love is infinite. God loves Jesus and will love him for all eternity. Therefore Jesus and all those who follow Jesus will be alive forevermore after judgement.

Jesus is part of God but not all of God. God is the combination of everything that exist will exist and has existed and also that which does not exist.

God is infinite he has no boundaries, no limitations. Jesus is physical and does have boundaries and limitations placed on him by God.

Jesus is God, but only the physical manifestation of God. God is everything.

For proof re-read the scriptures I posted. If you don't believe them, you simply don't believe in the word of God nor Jesus which is the physical mirror image of the invisible God.

I believe the physical has no part in the spiritual. John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 4:24 God is a Spirit:

The Hindus think so but I believe there is no support for this concept in the Bible.

Mat 24 suggests that Jesus will not be around when the earth literally expires.

I believe this is not true. The perception is that Jesus is only part of God but the truth is that God is not divided nor affected by our perceptions.

Again this is Hindu belief but there is no evidence in the Bible to support it.

You will have to accompany concepts with supporting scripture. I have read scipture many times so I know what it says but there are always new percetpions that God provides me.

 

[Muffled]

The Father and the Son are equal in substance.

They have different roles, however, and such would make one believe one was superior to the other, but this is not the case. The Father is the eternal originator of the Trinity.

And the Father did not exist before the Son. The Father eternally begets the Son.

John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

I AM indicates the Name of God. Jesus existed before the world, with the Father. The Father is the originator of the Trinity. However, the Son has always eternally been begotten by the Father and the Spirit eternally proceeding from the Father. So the Father did not exist before the Son or the Spirit.

Jesus does not have physical limits. Despite living on the earth in a fleshly body, His divine nature was still omnipresent, omnipotent and bearing all of those qualities of God. Nevertheless, Jesus now has a glorified body, and it is not limited by space and time.

Matthew 19:17 is actually used to support the notion that Jesus was God, because Jesus says elsewhere, in John 10:11, that He is the 'good shepherd'.

Hebrews 1 and 1 Corinthians 15 merely demonstrate that the Father and Son have different roles.

This is a fascinating concept. God has told me that time always exists. So the fact is that the begetting of Jesus is alwyas there as well. We have a tendency to think the past is gone but God sees it as ever present. We travel through time but God is in all time.

The Father becomes so simulataneously with the begetting of the Son before that He is just Jehovah.

If you are trying to say this means a pre-existing Jesus, you are in error. However the consciousness of God in Jesus is that of Himself. However the perspective is not from the beginning but from the incarnation.

 

[Muffled]

So confusing! So complicated!

I believe philosophy can be confusing and complicated. I could attempt to put it in street terms for you if you would like.

 

[sojourner]

That is Jesus talking to John. And indeed Jesus DOES have a beginning and an end because he is the physical image of God who has NO beginning and NO end.

The machine (The Holy Spirit) knows all.

Edit: To be a little more specific I must say, that when I say beginning and end, I'm talking in the physical. Not about Time Jesus had a beginning when God created him and his death was his end, yet God raised him up due to his obedience, therefore if we follow in his example and do what God ask of us we will have life-everlasting if we do as God and Jesus have commanded of us.

Jesus is not created. Jesus is begotten.