Jesus never says to worship 'Yahweh'

[TrueBeliever37]

The problem is that it should.



Ok, at a very basic level, the argument of what is a name, and what is a 'vague', title, I guess that is what you are saying, is itself problematic, because then you are inferring that references to God, are 'vague', in the Bible.
Now, do you you really believe that when other names/titles, are used for God, that they are 'vague'?

If you aren't saying that, then they are 'names', and God has numerous names, quite frankly.

You cannot say that although names or titles, used for God, are vague, that you are the authority on when it is, or isn't, vague.

You sort of have to pick between more than one name, or, vague titles, that can mean other gods.

Still don't see the examples and scriptures showing what you are saying his other names are.

Show me the scriptures where he said his name was something besides YHWH.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

That's great, but we aren't discussing what you might say, when reading the Scripture, we are discussing what is actually in the text. For example, when I write Jehovah, I'm indicating that this name has vowels, not necessarily how I would always say it, personally.


Well, it's important to your argument, because your argument consists of some obscure methodology of using big letters, to denote something, which frankly, are you saying it denotes the Hebraic JHVH? Or, are you saying it denotes where they believe JHVH was the intent of inference? I don't know what Bible you are using, however if your Bible has replaced Adonai, with Elohim, then they are changing names, and it is incorrect, as I already noted.

Please go back and read thru my posts a little more slowly. I have explained it. You can also go to a Bible dictionary and read under the headings YHWH , and LORD. Maybe you will believe them.

I am saying it is their method of showing that it has the name YHWH in the original Hebrew manuscripts. YHWH is actually what is in the Hebrew text, when we have LORD or GOD in our English text.

I use the KJV, and the NIV. But it is the same in the ASV, NAS, RSV, and many others. By the way Adonai, and Elohim are both titles, not names.

YHWH is God's real name. Jehovah is an artificial name. For one thing there is no J in the Hebrew language.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I cannot address everything because I don't believe the OT is gospel. But you are perverting the book from the Johaninnes (John) which is the true gnosis of the four Canon gospels (and why it was written last).

John is not written in real time, but after the fact.

John 2:

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Jesus said he was doing works of the Father, not that he was Father. John 5:36, John 10:25, John 10:32, John 10:37, John 14:10.

To understand John (gnosis), one must read the other non Canon gospels and Spirit books and not influence them with the OT.

Matthew 17:1-8 explains why Jesus wanted to keep secret NOT to listen to Moses or Isaiah until he had risen (as proof). Had the disciples told the Jews of the vision, no Jew would have been saved. Which is why he said in Matthew 17:9:
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Jesus had a hard time convincing the Jews they were on the wrong path. The Gentiles, were much easier to teach, than the Jews, which is why the first three Canon gospels were written to them in mind, complete with a "linage" of birth to help out. John doesn't include such linage, as it was written for the world and not the Jews. 12 disciples to the Jews had a much harder time than Paul, who taught the Gentiles, not even seeing Christ, but having the same Spirit (capital S) that Jesus had and gave to the disciples. John 7:39, John 20:22

Remember, John was written after the first three Canon gospels and the book of Acts as well as Pauls letters. The Johaninnes saw where the gospel was moving, and tried to correct the path, writing 1 John as well.

Just my thoughts after 40+ years of seeking and study.

Looks like you need to read my post# 235 again. Written after the fact doesn't mean it isn't true. You did see John 2:21 that you sent - right? He was talking about raising his body.

 

[Desert Snake]

Please go back and read thru my posts a little more slowly. I have explained it. You can also go to a Bible dictionary and read under the headings YHWH , and LORD. Maybe you will believe them.

I'm aware that some Bibles do this, your argument is much more involved than that.

I am saying it is their method of showing that it has the name YHWH in the original Hebrew manuscripts. YHWH is actually what is in the Hebrew text, when we have LORD or GOD in our English text.

Using God, there for JHVH, isn't traditional name cross language methodology, and is going to change the inference of Christian Scripture.

I use the KJV, and the NIV. But it is the same in the ASV, NAS, RSV, and many others. By the way Adonai, and Elohim are both titles, not names.

Abstract statement,
Genesis 1:26

YHWH is God's real name. Jehovah is an artificial name.

For one thing there is no J in the Hebrew language.

Jehovah is YHWH, with using a 'j', as in some languages, and indicating vowels, in the name. I find it quite apt.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I'm aware that some Bibles do this, your argument is much more involved than that.



Using God, there for JHVH, isn't traditional name cross language methodology, and is going to change the inference of Christian Scripture.


Abstract statement,
Genesis 1:26



Jehovah is YHWH, with using a 'j', as in some languages, and indicating vowels, in the name. I find it quite apt.

I already explained to you that there were verses in the Hebrew that had adonai YHWH in them. If they substituted adonai for the name YHWH, like they normally would, they would end up saying adonai adonai. Rather than do that, they substituted the word elohim (Which is Hebrew for God) instead. So then they would say adonai elohim. When the translation into English occurred it became Lord GOD, letting us know that YHWH was replaced with elohim in the reading of that verse.

I am not saying that the name YHWH doesn't show up in the Hebrew text. It does, but it has vowel points with it to remind them to say either adonai or elohim instead of the name.

Some wanna be scholars came along, and saw the name YHWH, and not realizing the vowel points were for a different word, came up with the artificial name Jehovah. J is pronounced like a y in many languages even today. Even in our language - Hallelujah, has the j pronounced like a y. But with the Germanic influence, and possibly a few other reasons, the name ended up being pronounced Jehovah. But it is still an artificial name. There is no J in the Hebrew language, so it is impossible for Jehovah to be God's real name. And remember the vowels they used were vowels from a different word.

 

[Desert Snake]

I already explained to you that there were verses in the Hebrew that had adonai YHWH in them. If they substituted adonai for the name YHWH, like they normally would, they would end up saying adonai adonai. Rather than do that, they substituted the word elohim (Which is Hebrew for God) instead. So then they would say adonai elohim. When the translation into English occurred it became Lord GOD, letting us know that YHWH was replaced with elohim in the reading of that verse.

I am not saying that the name YHWH doesn't show up in the Hebrew text. It does, but it has vowel points with it to remind them to say either adonai or elohim instead of the name.

Some wanna be scholars came along, and saw the name YHWH, and not realizing the vowel points were for a different word, came up with the artificial name Jehovah. J is pronounced like a y in many languages even today. Even in our language - Hallelujah, has the j pronounced like a y. But with the Germanic influence, and possibly a few other reasons, the name ended up being pronounced Jehovah. But it is still an artificial name. There is no J in the Hebrew language, so it is impossible for Jehovah to be God's real name. And remember the vowels they used were vowels from a different word.

Colossians 3:17

You interpret this verse, as?

 

[Desert Snake]

I already explained to you that there were verses in the Hebrew that had adonai YHWH in them. If they substituted adonai for the name YHWH, like they normally would, they would end up saying adonai adonai. Rather than do that, they substituted the word elohim (Which is Hebrew for God) instead. So then they would say adonai elohim. When the translation into English occurred it became Lord GOD, letting us know that YHWH was replaced with elohim in the reading of that verse.

It's a bad methodology, and changes the inference to the theology of the Bible.
Adonay, is presumably used for YHWH, it's like saying the same thing.
Adonai Elohim, is saying, God the father, singular, and God, singular plurality. They both mean God, and they both include God the Father, YHWH isn't replaced with Elohim, because they don't mean the same thing. So, whoever, or whatever group, or Bible, told you that, or is replacing Adonay with Elohim, is arbitrarily replacing deific names, according to some obscure theory, that changes the deific inference, meaning, of the names. Since you aren't the authority, on what was the intent, when Adonay was written, I'm not going to read Scripture according to your, or those, theories, wherever you got them.

I am not saying that the name YHWH doesn't show up in the Hebrew text. It does, but it has vowel points with it to remind them to say either adonai or elohim instead of the name.

Some wanna be scholars came along, and saw the name YHWH, and not realizing the vowel points were for a different word, came up with the artificial name Jehovah. J is pronounced like a y in many languages even today. Even in our language - Hallelujah, has the j pronounced like a y. But with the Germanic influence, and possibly a few other reasons, the name ended up being pronounced Jehovah. But it is still an artificial name. There is no J in the Hebrew language, so it is impossible for Jehovah to be God's real name. And remember the vowels they used were vowels from a different word.

Hence, you write, what, for YHWH? You realize that Yahweh is just another way that some say, JHVH, so, are you saying, that's "wrong"?
If Yahweh is fine, then why don't you believe that Jehovah, is fine?

Like I said, I find Jehovah quite apt to express the name that I'm inferencing, and you, or whatever authority, seems like the vague academic mish mash of nothing explained, does not in any way refute my usage of the name Jehovah.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Colossians 3:17

You interpret this verse, as?

Whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of YHWH YHWSH -
YHWSH is the true name of the Messiah.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

It's a bad methodology, and changes the inference to the theology of the Bible.
Adonay, is presumably used for YHWH, it's like saying the same thing.
Adonai Elohim, is saying, God the father, singular, and God, singular plurality. They both mean God, and they both include God the Father, YHWH isn't replaced with Elohim, because they don't mean the same thing. So, whoever, or whatever group, or Bible, told you that, or is replacing Adonay with Elohim, is arbitrarily replacing deific names, according to some obscure theory, that changes the deific inference, meaning, of the names. Since you aren't the authority, on what was the intent, when Adonay was written, I'm not going to read Scripture according to your, or those, theories, wherever you got them.


Hence, you write, what, for YHWH? You realize that Yahweh is just another way that some say, JHVH, so, are you saying, that's "wrong"?
If Yahweh is fine, then why don't you believe that Jehovah, is fine?

Like I said, I find Jehovah quite apt to express the name that I'm inferencing, and you, or whatever authority, seems like the vague academic mish mash of nothing explained, does not in any way refute my usage of the name Jehovah.

You evidently don't understand what I have been saying. Hopefully someone else will.

Adonai and Elohim don't both mean God. Adonai means Lord or Master, while Elohim means God. You can believe and use any name you want. That's between you and God. I have been giving you historical information - if you choose not to believe it that's up to you.

No need in us discussing this any further. Have a nice day.

 

[Desert Snake]

In the Tanakh the name of that god is represented by the tetragrammaton (Greek, 'four letters'), in Roman letters YHWH. This has been rendered as 'Jehovah' and later as 'Yahweh' in (Christian) English, each pronounced much as spelt (though the J / dzh of 'Jehovah' should also be 'y'). Observant Jews avoid pronouncing it at all, and use other words such as (in English) 'the Lord'.

Is this the quasi-academic drivel that you are using, to base your deific name usage, on?
Here, academia says , 'Yahweh', is Jehovah written in Christian English, which it isn't, then proceeds to distance itself, from that usage, with some word acrobatics.

Some wanna be scholars came along, and saw the name YHWH, and not realizing the vowel points were for a different word, came up with the artificial name Jehovah. J is pronounced like a y in many languages even today. Even in our language - Hallelujah, has the j pronounced like a y. But with the Germanic influence, and possibly a few other reasons, the name ended up being pronounced Jehovah. But it is still an artificial name. There is no J in the Hebrew language, so it is impossible for Jehovah to be God's real name. And remember the vowels they used were vowels from a different word.

...

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Is this the quasi-academic drivel that you are using, to base your deific name usage, on?
Here, academia says , Yahweh', is Jehovah written in Christian English, which it isn't, then proceeds to distance itself, from that usage, with some word acrobatics.


...

Please find someone else to argue with. I can't seem to reason with you.

 

[Desert Snake]

You evidently don't understand what I have been saying. Hopefully someone else will.

Adonai and Elohim don't both mean God. Adonai means Lord or Master, while Elohim means God. You can believe and use any name you want. That's between you and God. I have been giving you historical information - if you choose not to believe it that's up to you.

No need in us discussing this any further. Have a nice day.

Adonay doesn't mean God? Then who is being referred to, with Adonay Elohim?
Of course Adonay means God, as does Elohim.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Adonay doesn't mean God? Then who is being referred to, with Adonay Elohim?
Of course Adonay means God, as does Elohim.

It refers to God, but the word adonai itself means my Lord or Master. While the word elohim means God.
Are you just playing like you can't understand that there is a difference in meaning between these two words, or is it for real?
Please look up the words in a Bible dictionary.

 

[Phantasman]

Looks like you need to read my post# 235 again. Written after the fact doesn't mean it isn't true. You did see John 2:21 that you sent - right? He was talking about raising his body.

I read it. You must not have read mine. Jesus couldn't raise himself. The Father raised him as well as spoke through him.

John:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

In other words, the Holy Spirit given him by the Father that he in turn gave to us after he arose.

John:
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

No man has or ever had heard the Father.
John:
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Which means the Jews never heard the Father, the true God who never murdered, but wants to "give" true life.

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

As I said, Jesus only spoke what he heard once he became Christ.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

I read it. You must not have read mine. Jesus couldn't raise himself. The Father raised him as well as spoke through him.

John:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

In other words, the Holy Spirit given him by the Father that he in turn gave to us after he arose.

John:
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

No man has or ever had heard the Father.
John:
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Which means the Jews never heard the Father, the true God who never murdered, but wants to "give" true life.

John:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

As I said, Jesus only spoke what he heard once he became Christ.

That was my point, the Father that dwelleth in the son, was the one speaking, and saying Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. That was why the Messiah was God, because the fulness of the Deity dwelt in him bodily. As I have said in other posts - he was both the Father and the son at the same time. The son was the flesh, and the Father was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh. But the Father and the son are not 2 separate persons of the Godhead.

Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. If you aren't agreeing then it sounds like you don't believe what the Messiah said. He could only say that because he was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

 

[blü 2]

Is this the quasi-academic drivel that you are using, to base your deific name usage, on?

Have a nice day.

 

[Phantasman]

That was my point, the Father that dwelleth in the son, was the one speaking, and saying Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will raise it up. That was why the Messiah was God, because the fulness of the Deity dwelt in him bodily. As I have said in other posts - he was both the Father and the son at the same time. The son was the flesh, and the Father was the eternal Spirit dwelling in the flesh. But the Father and the son are not 2 separate persons of the Godhead.

Not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. If you aren't agreeing then it sounds like you don't believe what the Messiah said. He could only say that because he was the one and only God manifest in the flesh.

Orthodox , of course. "This is my son" was heard twice, the voice of the Holy Spirit, the mother that was in Christ. It is what the word Christ means, of the Chrism (Spirit, capital S). Jesus became the son of God, first Christ. The son was complete with mother and father. It was the spirit that made him have eternal life. His flesh (as Jesus) profited nothing. John 6:63. He became Christ to reach us how to become Christs (sons of God). John 1:12.

To do so, we become "son" of spiritual mother and father, leaving our fleshly (ideas) of mother and father.

Luke 14:26 tried to say it, but it was somehow lost in translation. Which is why the protected non Canon books reveals things men have erased or changed.

Gospel of Thomas spells it out clearer:
(101) <Jesus said,> "Whoever does not hate his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. And whoever does not love his father and his mother as I do cannot become a disciple to me. For my mother [...], but my true mother gave me life."

Even with missing words, the Spirit will reveal.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

When asked show us the Father, what was his reply? John 14:8-9 Have I been so long time with you and you still don't know me?
Who did he say would raise his body in John 2:19 ? He said I will raise it up. Did he lie?
Didn't Thomas say he was God? John 20:28
I and My Father are one. Then they were ready to stone him for making himself God. John 10:30-33
The son to be born would also be the mighty God, and the everlasting Father. Isaiah 9:6
No the Tetragrammaton does Not appear at Philippians 2:11, but it is supposed to be there. Just like it is supposed to be at Matthew 3:3 and Mark 1:3 and so many other scriptures.
Trinitarians have tampered with the scriptures. Such as adding 1 John 5:7 which is not in the original.
Compare Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets ,Behold I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (Making it look like more than one)
with what it is supposed to be quoting. Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me.
In Isaiah 40:3 the voice that crieth in the wilderness Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
In the NT, John the Baptist was the voice - Who did he prepare the way for? Who showed up? Wasn't it the Messiah? But didn't the prophecy say it would be YHWH? The prophecy was true because he was YHWH.
Who created the heavens and the earth? Was it YHWH as it says in Isaiah 42:5 and Isaiah 40:3 (note the words: alone, and by myself ) or was it the Messiah as in Colossians 1:14-16 ?
Or are both scriptures true, and it is as I said - He is YHWH?
YHWH said in Isaiah 44:6 I am the first and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. But isn't the Messiah the first and the last according to Revelation 22:12-13 ?
If I was in a race, and finished first and last, wouldn't that mean I was the only one in the race?

Revelation 22 starts with the throne of God 'and' of the Lamb. ( 2 persons )
There are two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21, so two persons are speaking in chapter 22.
Lord God at Revelation 22:6 is YHWH so is also the one of verses 12-14.

No, Jesus did Not lie at John 2:19. The ' sign ' of John 2:18 was in reference to Jonah.- Matthew 27:40.
Acts of the Apostles 2:24 says God raised up Jesus.
Acts of the Apostles 2:32 says that Jesus has God raised up.
Acts of the Apostles 3:15 says God raised Jesus Jesus
Acts of the Apostles 5:30 says God raised up Jesus.
Acts of the Apostles 13:30,37 says God raised Jesus.
Romans 4:24 says to believe on Him who raised up Jesus from the dead.
Colossians 2:12 says God raised Jesus.
so, who resurrected Jesus _______

I notice at John 20:17 Jesus says I am Not yet ascended to my Father... and your Father and to my God....
So, to me Jesus is plain that the resurrected Jesus still think he has a God over him.
So, by doubting Thomas saying in front of Jesus in verse 28 'My Lord and my God', then as a person in front of a reporter might say, " Oh my God " and Not be calling the reporter as God, then Thomas was addressing God just as Jesus addressed his God at John 20:17.
The king at 1 Kings 3:26 was addressed as Lord, but that did Not make the king as Lord God.

Why stop at John 10:33 when in honest answer at John 10:36 Jesus truthfully says he is God's Son.
I notice at John 17:11and John 17:21-23 Jesus prays his followers all be one as he and his Father are one.
Surely Jesus was Not praying we all be God, but could be one in purpose, unity, faith, goal, will, etc.

Since God is greater than Jesus at John 14:28, and greater than ALL (everyone) at John 10:29, then God is greater than Jesus.
Also, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Revelation 22 starts with the throne of God 'and' of the Lamb. ( 2 persons )
There are two (2) thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21, so two persons are speaking in chapter 22.
Lord God at Revelation 22:6 is YHWH so is also the one of verses 12-14.

No, Jesus did Not lie at John 2:19. The ' sign ' of John 2:18 was in reference to Jonah.- Matthew 27:40.
Acts of the Apostles 2:24 says God raised up Jesus.
Acts of the Apostles 2:32 says that Jesus has God raised up.
Acts of the Apostles 3:15 says God raised Jesus Jesus
Acts of the Apostles 5:30 says God raised up Jesus.
Acts of the Apostles 13:30,37 says God raised Jesus.
Romans 4:24 says to believe on Him who raised up Jesus from the dead.
Colossians 2:12 says God raised Jesus.
so, who resurrected Jesus _______

I notice at John 20:17 Jesus says I am Not yet ascended to my Father... and your Father and to my God....
So, to me Jesus is plain that the resurrected Jesus still think he has a God over him.
So, by doubting Thomas saying in front of Jesus in verse 28 'My Lord and my God', then as a person in front of a reporter might say, " Oh my God " and Not be calling the reporter as God, then Thomas was addressing God just as Jesus addressed his God at John 20:17.
The king at 1 Kings 3:26 was addressed as Lord, but that did Not make the king as Lord God.

Why stop at John 10:33 when in honest answer at John 10:36 Jesus truthfully says he is God's Son.
I notice at John 17:11and John 17:21-23 Jesus prays his followers all be one as he and his Father are one.
Surely Jesus was Not praying we all be God, but could be one in purpose, unity, faith, goal, will, etc.

Since God is greater than Jesus at John 14:28, and greater than ALL (everyone) at John 10:29, then God is greater than Jesus.
Also, the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him as per Revelation 3:12.

There are not 2 thrones mentioned at Revelation 3:21- he said even as I overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. So that is just one throne.

Yes in Revelation 22:6 it says YHWH God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. But now read Revelation 22:16 - His true name is YHWSH, but in our version It says, I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. So who sent the angel? As I said he has to be YHWH.

Who does Revelation 23:20 let us know it is that is coming quickly? He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus (YHWH YHWSH).
Since the one who sent his angel to testify in Revelation 22:16 , is said to be the Lord Jesus (YHWH YHWSH) in Revelation 22:20 , surely you can see that he is the one talking in Revelation 22:12-13 So once again, this proves he is YHWH.

Let's see how the Greek from the Zondervan interlinear reads for John 20:28 - Answered Thomas and said to him: The Lord of me and The God of me. Now does that sound like it was just an expression like a reporter might say?

And if you think there are 2 thrones, then you must believe in more than one God. And then I would like to ask you which one is King and Lord of the other? If the messiah is King of Kings and Lord of Lords as Revelation 19:13-16 lets us know. Then do you think the Messiah is King and Lord over your other person the Father?

You evidently don't understand me, because I do believe God raised up the Messiah, because the Messiah was God manifest in the flesh.
That is why he was able to say Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up.

Of course the eternal Spirit dwelling in the body, is greater than the fleshly body itself

Like I tell everyone, you are free to believe whatever you choose.

 

[Avoice1C]

Jesus never says to worship 'Yahweh'

This word is presumably translated as 'Lord'

In the English Bible, but with so many christians claiming that they should be worshipping 'Yahweh', or that they worship 'Yahweh', where does Jesus ever say to worship 'Yahweh '?