Jesus (pbuh) was said "Elahi" , in his language " Aramaic"

[tumbleweed41]

Guess what?

Your god is Allah.

And despite your feeble attempts, there is no way to reconcile linguistics to assume Jesus cried out to Allah. Especially using a Gospel expressly written for and by early Christians.

 

[Godobeyer]

Guess what?

Your god is Allah.

And despite your feeble attempts, there is no way to reconcile linguistics to assume Jesus cried out to Allah. Especially using a Gospel expressly written for and by early Christians.

God is english word , and Allah is arabic word , the meaning is the same
this is exactly , what i talking about ,
as exactly you tell the frenchs , your god is called " dieu"
this is foolish, no ?

My consering is Jesus (pbuh) used the word ALLAH/ ElAHI to called his God .
and this the proof , don't shock , listen from 0:55 seconds
[youtube]9227zuLmF5U[/youtube]
YouTube - The Passion of Christ Pt 12 of 12 (Full Movie)

Elahi
Jesus (pbuh) never called his god (GOD) lol

and see how we spell it in arabic
[youtube]Mf7I5X_4lYk[/youtube]
YouTube - ‫

 

[tumbleweed41]

God is english word , and Allah is arabic word , the meaning is the same
this is exactly , what i talking about ,
as exactly you tell the frenchs , your god is called " dieu"
this is foolish, no ?

It would be foolish, if Islam did not profess that the name of God is Allah,

Allah, the unique name of God

lâ ilâha illâ allâh

ilâha = a god, deity, object of worship
allâh = allâh, the unique name of God

 

[tumbleweed41]

As for your Passion clips, that has already been addressed.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2182014-post12.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2182167-post14.html

 

[Levite]

Guess what?

Your god is Allah.

And despite your feeble attempts, there is no way to reconcile linguistics to assume Jesus cried out to Allah. Especially using a Gospel expressly written for and by early Christians.

With all due respect, TW, I actually have no problem with the notion that Jesus cried out to God, and that Allah is simply Arabic for Elohim (Heb.) or Elahah (Aram.), which are two possible names of God that Jesus might also have used. I don't think (unless I gravely misunderstood) that Godobeyer is suggesting that Jesus used the Arabic form: the suggestion is that Jesus used the Aramaic form, which I think is a perfectly supportable conclusion. (Nor do I quarrel with the undeniable fact that Allah is the precise Arabic cognate word to Aramaic Elahah.) My only quarrel was with the purported form of the Aramaic used in Gibson's movie, which I believe to simply be incorrect Aramaic. That Jesus might have used the correct Aramaic form seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Although, to be fair, even in the days when Jews spoke Aramaic as their language of daily discourse, formal prayer was usually conducted in Hebrew. My presumption is that Jesus would have used Aramaic only in informal moments of spontaneous outcry. Elahah is certainly a name he might have used, although at that time, in Aramaic, Jews often did not use Elahah in direct prayer address, but used other names, such as Mara d'Alma ("Master of the World,") or Malka d'Alma ("King of the World") or Rachamana ("Merciful One"). Nonetheless, the notion that he preferred Elahah is unobjectionable, and as supportable as any other idea.

But I do once again say that Gibson's Passion is not a reliable guide to Pharisaic-era Aramaic, or any era of Aramaic, for that matter, much less reliable in any way about the behavior, attitudes, or lifestyle of Jews in that era.

 

[Godobeyer]

It would be foolish, if Islam did not profess that the name of God is Allah,

Allah, the unique name of God

lâ ilâha illâ allâh

ilâha = a god, deity, object of worship
allâh = allâh, the unique name of God

it's foolish , because Allah is the Arabic (not Islamic ) name of God , see the Bible Arabic version, please ask the arabic christians , What they call God ?
Allah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Allah (Arabic: الله‎ Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] (

listen)) is the standard Arabic name for God.

Christianity

Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[3] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[7] (Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Roman Catholic, uses Alla for 'God'.) Arab Christians for example use terms Allāh al-ʼab (الله الأ&#1576 meaning God the Father, Allāh al-ibn (الله الاب&#1606 mean God the Son, and Allāh al-rūḥ al-quds (الله الروح القد&#1587 meaning God the Holy Spirit (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God).

 

[Godobeyer]

With all due respect, TW, I actually have no problem with the notion that Jesus cried out to God, and that Allah is simply Arabic for Elohim (Heb.) or Elahah (Aram.), which are two possible names of God that Jesus might also have used. I don't think (unless I gravely misunderstood) that Godobeyer is suggesting that Jesus used the Arabic form: the suggestion is that Jesus used the Aramaic form, which I think is a perfectly supportable conclusion. (Nor do I quarrel with the undeniable fact that Allah is the precise Arabic cognate word to Aramaic Elahah.) My only quarrel was with the purported form of the Aramaic used in Gibson's movie, which I believe to simply be incorrect Aramaic. That Jesus might have used the correct Aramaic form seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Although, to be fair, even in the days when Jews spoke Aramaic as their language of daily discourse, formal prayer was usually conducted in Hebrew. My presumption is that Jesus would have used Aramaic only in informal moments of spontaneous outcry. Elahah is certainly a name he might have used, although at that time, in Aramaic, Jews often did not use Elahah in direct prayer address, but used other names, such as Mara d'Alma ("Master of the World,") or Malka d'Alma ("King of the World") or Rachamana ("Merciful One"). Nonetheless, the notion that he preferred Elahah is unobjectionable, and as supportable as any other idea.

But I do once again say that Gibson's Passion is not a reliable guide to Pharisaic-era Aramaic, or any era of Aramaic, for that matter, much less reliable in any way about the behavior, attitudes, or lifestyle of Jews in that era.

I know that you hate that movie , and hating Gibson , and hating the story of Jesus (pbuh) with you

 

[David_2010]

accuatly the Aramaic and hebrew and the arabic use the same word (ELAH) or ELAHI , or Elohim , to call the God , and you tried to deny it , because you always used word ALLAH to insult the muslims (as shame word ) , and you hate it because it's arabic , but you ignore that Jesus (pbuh) used it to call his god .
always you saying to us , YOUR GOD ALLAH , YOUR god called allah !!!!

and this is an exmeple :
look what Bowman claim here :

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ce-proof-prophet-muhammad-existed-lol-16.html

my point is some people from the west and some Christians blackguard/insult the muslims , when they told them you god called ALLAH (as the exmeple i posted) not god , some may insulting ALLAH him self
it's very clear ,my point is explain it's self

I'm a bit confused, I think GabrielWithoutWings made a point about you saying the Jews weren't an authority on Aramaic because they rejected Jesus, but, I'm not sure how your reply fits in? .

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I know that you hate that movie , and hating Gibson , and hating the story of Jesus (pbuh) with you

I didn't get the sense that he was "hating" anything.

Why can't there just be honest dialogue and teaching from both of you to some of us who aren't familiar with the language and the various dialects?

All of this is some interesting stuff because I knew there are different dialects of Arabic as well as Hebrew but never knew there were different dialects of Aramaic and I want to thank you Levite for the schooling.

Personally I don't see it as a big deal because I get the sense that all of them (Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic) share a common root language.

 

[Levite]

I know that you hate that movie , and hating Gibson , and hating the story of Jesus (pbuh) with you

I don't care for the movie, it's true, but that doesn't have anything to do with the purely academic critique of its use of the Aramaic language.

I also don't care for Gibson very much, but that also doesn't have anything to do with it-- just because the man's a d*** doesn't mean his movies have to be bad, by definition-- personally, I liked "Braveheart" quite a bit, and some of his other films also.

And I don't hate the story of Jesus. Just because I don't believe in Jesus' divinity or his claims to be messiah or prophet, doesn't mean the story isn't compelling, or that I think Jesus was a bad guy. His teachings stretch the bounds of acceptibility in Judaism in a couple of places, and Paul really took his teachings in a direction incompatible with Judaism entirely, but a lot of what Jesus actually said was perfectly nice: try to be decent, try to love God a lot, try to live simply...frankly, most of what he said, the Rabbis of the Talmud also said, in slightly different words.

And as for the story of Jesus, though I don't believe in it in a religious sense, I still like it from a dramatic, mythopoeic point of view. I loved both the novel and the film of "The Last Temptation of Christ," for example, as well as many other, similar retellings of the tale. I loved "Jesus Christ Superstar." Hell, when I was younger, I even played Jesus once, in a production of "Godspell," and had a great time of it. There's a big difference between "I don't believe in Jesus" and "I hate Jesus," and I would never claim the latter.

 

[Godobeyer]

Brothers , and sisters , i explain here the misunderstand about Islam in the West on General , and the special the Christains , I met people told me that Allah is the God of the muslims and He is the moon !!!! and someothers insulting Allah ....etc
i guess you all know this ?

I gave you an exmple and from this site , how the people told us that our (muslims) God is Allah , it's suppose that they said "you called God in arabic Allah"
I know that the Jews have no problem with the word "Allah" , because it's very close to Eloah,Elah,Elohim (in Hebrew language)

 

[Godobeyer]

I guess, I found a good video explain why the Christains hate the word Allah
because a group of terrorists use it to kill the innocent

[youtube]pgJ0s1wNEZc[/youtube]
YouTube - Let's Call God Allah

 

[yonah34]

LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, SHALL WE!

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Lexicon Results
Strong's G1682 - elōï
ἐλωΐ
Transliteration

elōï
Pronunciation

e-lō-ē' (Key)


Part of Speech

Aramaism
Root Word (Etymology)

Of Aramaic origin, אֱלָהּ (H426) with pronominal suff.

TDNT Reference

n/a

Outline of Biblical Usage

Eloi = "my God"

1) Aramaic for the phrase "my God"

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — Eloi 2

Lexicon Results
Strong's H426 - 'elahh (Aramaic)
אֱלָהּ
Transliteration

'elahh (Aramaic)
Pronunciation

el·ä' (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

Corresponding to אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

2576

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) god, God

a) god, heathen deity

b) God (of Israel)

 

[Godobeyer]

LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, SHALL WE!

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Lexicon Results
Strong's G1682 - elōï
ἐλωΐ
Transliteration

elōï
Pronunciation

e-lō-ē' (Key)


Part of Speech

Aramaism
Root Word (Etymology)

Of Aramaic origin, אֱלָהּ (H426) with pronominal suff.

TDNT Reference

n/a

Outline of Biblical Usage

Eloi = "my God"

1) Aramaic for the phrase "my God"

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — Eloi 2

Lexicon Results
Strong's H426 - 'elahh (Aramaic)
אֱלָהּ
Transliteration

'elahh (Aramaic)
Pronunciation

el·ä' (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

Corresponding to אֱלוֹהַּ (H433)

TWOT Reference

2576

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) god, God

a) god, heathen deity

b) God (of Israel)

1-Yes there are many eli, eloi , elah,eloah = all these mean god ,...etc , the movie (official) of Jesus (pbuh) they used Elahi (mean my god) in Arabic and Aramaic , and it's close to the hebrew , Eli , Elah ,Eloah
2- And what interressant me is : "lama" is compeletly closer (in the mean and spelling) to the arabic word" لما "or "لماذا" :they mean "Why " in arabic

(notice that google translate " لما" to "what" :it's error , it's mean "why" , " what" in arabic is ماذا :
3- Sabachthani? (thani ) it's a regule (suffix ) in Arabic grammaire language , it's add to the word, to sign of the object in the sentence.

and if we translate it in arabic it will be like this ,
إلهي,إلهي , لما تركتني ؟؟؟


and this sentence (in arabic ) it's spell/phonitics, word by word like this:

-Arabic spelling :Elahi , Elahi , lima tark'tani ?
-Aramaic spelling: Elahi, Elahi, lama sabachthani ?

and if we use the second "why" in arabic" لماذا" it will spell like this :

-Arabic spelling :Elahi , Elahi , limatha tark'tani
-Aramaic spelling : Elahi, Elahi, lama [sabachthani ?

it's not a lesson in Arabic , but I want to show you the Similarity between the arabic and the aramaic , Jesus (pbuh) spoke it , and used it to cry and call his God.

Arabic and Hebrew and Aramaic : smetic languages, they are close to the spelling and sometimes in the meaning

 

[Levite]

LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT, SHALL WE!

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
...)

Yes, this attempt to transliterate is an error in the gospels. One can tell by two elements: first, there is no form, either in Hebrew (the language of formal prayer) or Aramaic (the language of informal prayer) of Eloi. The Hebrew form is Elohai. The Aramaic form Elahi, but is rare, outside of one place: the Targumim, the Aramaic translations of the Tanakh. The second element is that lama is Hebrew, but shevaktani is Aramaic: the two languages are never mixed within the same sentence in that way in any kind of prayer.

Now, if we translate shevaktani back into Hebrew, we have azavtani. And if we presume that Eloi is a Greek scribal error for the Hebrew Eli, then what we have is Eli Eli lama azavtani, ("my God, my God, why have you forsaken me") which is a part of the second verse of Psalm 22 (1. To the choirmaster, [to be sung] upon the dawn: a song of David. 2. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You are far from my salvation, from the words of my screaming.....).

This verse, in the Aramaic Targum (translation) is Elahi Elahi m'tol mah shevaktani. What seems clear is that the Greek author of the gospel, being unclear or uneducated on the differences between Hebrew and Aramaic, original and Targum, simply jumbled the two together. Either that, or there were two original oral or ur-written traditions, one of which had Jesus reciting Ps. 22 in the original (as he almost certainly would have done-- any moderately educated person knew the psalms in Hebrew. The Targumim of the psalms were not for use in recitation, but for the common people, who understood little Hebrew, to be able to study the meaning of the psalms in greater depth), the other having Jesus recite in Aramaic. In redacting the final gospel text, the author simply merged the two recitations without care for preserving the integrity of the language.

For that matter, it is a common idiom in Jewish usage-- prevalent since at least Second Temple days, if not before, and continuing unto this very day-- that the first line or word of a psalm or prayer is used as a metonymy: we say that someone recited Ashrei, for example, and we mean that he recited Ps. 145, to which it is custom to append at the beginning a verse from Ps. 84 and a verse from Ps. 144, both of which begin with the word ashrei ("happy is the one..."). Yet all understand that what is meant is not that so-and-so recited the word, or even the verse, but the entirety of the psalm, with its traditional accompanying verses. This idiomatic usage arose because originally, Jews did not number the chapters of Psalms, nor did they divide the rest of the Tanakh into chapters and verses: those ideas were introduced by Christians, much later. Jews used this kind of metonymy in place of chapter and verse references. So by that same token, I would presume that the pre-gospel original narrative presumed that all would understand that by citing this verse, what was meant was that Jesus recited the entirety of Ps. 22.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, this attempt to transliterate is an error in the gospels. One can tell by two elements: first, there is no form, either in Hebrew (the language of formal prayer) or Aramaic (the language of informal prayer) of Eloi. The Hebrew form is Elohai. The Aramaic form Elahi, but is rare, outside of one place: the Targumim, the Aramaic translations of the Tanakh. The second element is that lama is Hebrew, but shevaktani is Aramaic: the two languages are never mixed within the same sentence in that way in any kind of prayer.

Now, if we translate shevaktani back into Hebrew, we have azavtani. And if we presume that Eloi is a Greek scribal error for the Hebrew Eli, then what we have is Eli Eli lama azavtani, ("my God, my God, why have you forsaken me") which is a part of the second verse of Psalm 22 (1. To the choirmaster, [to be sung] upon the dawn: a song of David. 2. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? You are far from my salvation, from the words of my screaming.....).

This verse, in the Aramaic Targum (translation) is Elahi Elahi m'tol mah shevaktani. What seems clear is that the Greek author of the gospel, being unclear or uneducated on the differences between Hebrew and Aramaic, original and Targum, simply jumbled the two together. Either that, or there were two original oral or ur-written traditions, one of which had Jesus reciting Ps. 22 in the original (as he almost certainly would have done-- any moderately educated person knew the psalms in Hebrew. The Targumim of the psalms were not for use in recitation, but for the common people, who understood little Hebrew, to be able to study the meaning of the psalms in greater depth), the other having Jesus recite in Aramaic. In redacting the final gospel text, the author simply merged the two recitations without care for preserving the integrity of the language.

For that matter, it is a common idiom in Jewish usage-- prevalent since at least Second Temple days, if not before, and continuing unto this very day-- that the first line or word of a psalm or prayer is used as a metonymy: we say that someone recited Ashrei, for example, and we mean that he recited Ps. 145, to which it is custom to append at the beginning a verse from Ps. 84 and a verse from Ps. 144, both of which begin with the word ashrei ("happy is the one..."). Yet all understand that what is meant is not that so-and-so recited the word, or even the verse, but the entirety of the psalm, with its traditional accompanying verses. This idiomatic usage arose because originally, Jews did not number the chapters of Psalms, nor did they divide the rest of the Tanakh into chapters and verses: those ideas were introduced by Christians, much later. Jews used this kind of metonymy in place of chapter and verse references. So by that same token, I would presume that the pre-gospel original narrative presumed that all would understand that by citing this verse, what was meant was that Jesus recited the entirety of Ps. 22.

thanks for this reply , i have request , 1- your source
2- how we spell it in hebrew (spell it by english letters)

 

[Luminous]

thanks for your question .
My point is to show to the people , who hate the word " ALLAH" , and some (specialy the christains and the west on general ) misunderstand it's definition "meaning " , and use it as an insult word against the muslims ,
" you god Allah , you god called allah ,you god Allah is idol , Allah or is the moon ...etc "

because they did not know that God is mean Allah in all semitic languages.

Maybe you should start talking in ENGLISH! and stop trying to spread the Arab culture. that's what the Christians do and did, it helped spread their religion alot...simply using the region's language...if allah means "the God" than say THE GOD. no one want to be arab around here, yet the muslims say "PRAISE ALLAH" NOT "PRAISE THE GOD" . the moon god of the arab pagans was caled "the God" or allah.
in Spainish they call it Dios.

 

[Godobeyer]

Maybe you should start talking in ENGLISH! and stop trying to spread the Arab culture. that's what the Christians do and did, it helped spread their religion alot...simply using the region's language...if allah means "the God" than say THE GOD. no one want to be arab around here, yet the muslims say "PRAISE ALLAH" NOT "PRAISE THE GOD" . the moon god of the arab pagans was caled "the God" or allah.
in Spainish they call it Dios.

You just buy glass to read well , Abrahamic Religions DIR

 

[Levite]

thanks for this reply , i have request , 1- your source
2- how we spell it in hebrew (spell it by english letters)

1. My source for what, specifically?

2. Eli = alef-lamed-yod. Elahi = alef-lamed-heh-yod. Lama = lamed-mem-heh. Azavtani = ayin-zayin-bet-taf-nun-yod. Mah = mem-heh. M'tol = mem-tet-vav-lamed. Shevaktani = shin-bet-kuf-taf-nun-yod.

 

[Godobeyer]

1. My source for what, specifically?

the source of your information about the aramiac language

2. Eli = alef-lamed-yod. Elahi = alef-lamed-heh-yod. Lama = lamed-mem-heh. Azavtani = ayin-zayin-bet-taf-nun-yod. Mah = mem-heh. M'tol = mem-tet-vav-lamed. Shevaktani = shin-bet-kuf-taf-nun-yod.

"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani "
this sentence above is hebrew or aramiac , i guess it's aramaic , i want you to translate it to hebrew then put the spelling (as i did with arabic)