Jesus:Real or myth?

[arcanum]

Oh, I don't read books about the historical Jesus. Considering the way I'm able to out-debate the HJers already, that really would be an unfair advantage for me.

I recognize that not everyone has my gifts so I try to take on as many handicaps as possible, to level the field a little.

I really am a wonderful person, you know.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Clearly its time to update my ignore list ...

 

[Prophet]

Moses is a character written about in context of history that did not happen. The exodus and moses has no historicity.

With jesus, The temple, Pilate and Caiaphas are factual as well as the time period.


Archeology has given up hope and has stopped looking for moses a long time ago.

Archeology constantly is looking for evidence to help piece together Jesus real life

Couldn't the exodus story have been fabricated by Moses to legitimize his claim to leadership of a wandering people? Doesn't the story told in Exodus 19 of the Ten Commandments hint at a trickster prophet at work in the same way?

9 The Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the Lord what the people had said.

10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”

This is damaging material to Moses' character when reviewed by someone who reads critically. I think that material which is meant to be friendly to Moses accidentally impugning his character makes Moses more likely to be real.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Clearly the meandering conspiracy 'theory' of an "Extremely Stoned Being."

 

[Prophet]

It is only a theory I'll grant, but it's not meant to be authoritative, but rather to expose a false dichotomy presented that stated the lack of historical evidence for Israel's captivity in Egypt makes Moses a fictional character.

 

[Desert Snake]

It is only a theory I'll grant, but it's not meant to be authoritative, but rather to expose a false dichotomy presented that stated the lack of historical evidence for Israel's captivity in Egypt makes Moses a fictional character.

Hmm yeah, also off-topic.

 

[Akivah]

I'm asking how much and what type of writings exist from that period -- so I can get a sense of whether Jesus would have been mentioned.

If the only documents are theological, then I wouldn't expect a Jesus mention. But if the docs are diaries, histories, news reports... then the absense of Jesus is harder to explain.

I'm not aware of Jewish secular writings from around 20 CE.

In your opinion what are the three most important Jewish documents which should have mentioned Jesus but didn't?

How about two? The Tanakh and the Talmud.

 

[Prophet]

Hmm yeah, also off-topic.

People who seek to discredit the HJ often make the same sort of logic leaps.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How about two? The Tanakh and the Talmud.

Why on earth would you expect Jesus to be mentioned in the Tanakh?
As for the Talmud, were you referring to the Mishnah, the Gemara, or both?

 

[Desert Snake]

People who seek to discredit the HJ often make the same sort of logic leaps.

Hmm see I think HJ'rs do the same thing....But they might just choose certain things to focus on instead of the whole narrative.
If something seems like too much speculation to me, i'm skeptical..
Like I said before, it's imperative for many theorists that there weren't witness accounts, much less real apostle notes, this seems silly considering the timeline.,,,even sillier to think a whole mythic story grew up around some anonymous Jewish rebel.
I'm not buying that theory, basically.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why on earth would you expect Jesus to be mentioned in the Tanakh?
As for the Talmud, were you referring to the Mishnah, the Gemara, or both?

To continue: there very likely are references to Jesus in the Talmud, albeit of little probative value. Rather, their intent appears to be to ridicule the claims of Christianity. What is therefore particularly interesting is the absence of claims that Jesus and the Jerusalem sect were nothing but fabrications.

 

[arcanum]

I'm not aware of Jewish secular writings from around 20 CE.



How about two? The Tanakh and the Talmud.

Jesus should have been mentioned in the Tanakh which would have proved his historicity to you even though it predates his lifetime?? Oh but then again, some Christians thought/think he was mentioned....but I doubt you would agree with the assessments of that camp Akivah

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus should have been mentioned in the Tanakh which would have proved his historicity to you even though it predates his lifetime?? Oh but then again, some Christians thought/think he was mentioned....but I doubt you are in that camp Akivah

Judaism doesn't use the entire tanakh in the same way as Xianity.

 

[outhouse]

Couldn't the exodus story have been fabricated by Moses to legitimize his claim to leadership of a wandering people? .

No it could not have.

We are talking about a multi cultural people, who were beat down so many times, and then rebuilt their civilization, they had no idea of their own origns.

So they created one. And in doing so we see we see a history that matches the later time period's needs, more so then a real historical account of the ethnogenesis if Israelites whom we know evolved for the most part from displaces Canaanites.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jesus should have been mentioned in the Tanakh which would have proved his historicity to you even though it predates his lifetime??

It's rather embarrassing that a Jew would not know this.

 

[arcanum]

Judaism doesn't use the entire tanakh in the same way as Xianity.

Oh...well Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Prophet]

No it could not have.

We are talking about a multi cultural people, who were beat down so many times, and then rebuilt their civilization, they had no idea of their own origns.

So they created one. And in doing so we see we see a history that matches the later time period's needs, more so then a real historical account of the ethnogenesis if Israelites whom we know evolved for the most part from displaces Canaanites.

I have no idea how any of this invalidates a theory that Moses could have legitimized himself. I believe you might be restating your theory with exaggerated certainty without regard to the possibility my own theory.

The discipline of ancient history doesn't get smoking gun proofs often. Please excuse my skepticism that mixed into that logic presented here you have one.

 

[outhouse]

I believe you might be restating your theory with exaggerated certainty without regard to the possibility my own theory.

The discipline of ancient history doesn't get smoking gun proofs often. Please excuse my skepticism that mixed into that logic presented here you have one.

Moses as the leader of any group cannot be substantiated.

Israelites evolved from displaced Canaanites, its not really in dispute, less apologetically inclined biases.

Thisis just the current state of historians and it isnt up fro debate, it is that well established.

I have no idea how any of this invalidates a theory that Moses could have legitimized himself.

Did he also write about hs own death?


Look, we see a literary creation that reflects 5th and 6th century theology, far removed from any actual event.

When these books were compiled and edited/redacted leaves no room for what you posit

 

[Desert Snake]

Of course He was real. That's not even a debate, It's just fact.

Whether or not He was God/Son of God, Is the real question.

According to the Bible he was born of the Spirit. Unto Mary.

 

[Prophet]

Moses as the leader of any group cannot be substantiated.

I guess it depends what you mean by substantiated.

Israelites evolved from displaced Canaanites, its not really in dispute, less apologetically inclined biases.

Thisis just the current state of historians and it isnt up fro debate, it is that well established.

False dichotomy again. This does not rule out that a warrior-king named Moses could have risen to power in this tribe.

Did he also write about hs own death?

Just because some crazy people are dedicated to making Moses the sole author of the Pentateuch is no reason to pin that belief on me. This seems like a fairly off-topic remark.

Look, we see a literary creation that reflects 5th and 6th century theology, far removed from any actual event.

When these books were compiled and edited/redacted leaves no room for what you posit

I don't understand the apparent conflict you are pointing at. I can say that I believe it is likely that both Christian and Jewish texts were redacted in favor of the interests of the Roman Empire's adoption of Christianity as state religion around 4th century CE.