Jesus Resurrection

[Jollybear]

By the time Paul realized he was wrong it was too late, it can happen to the best of us.

Why didnt he realize he was wrong from the very begining? This would have been simple to know.

 

[joelr]

Why would the apostles (e.g. witnesses of the resurrection ) die for there claims to it then?

You realize people die for religious beliefs in all religions. Does that mean they are all true? Even today we have suicide bombers and a cult of like 100 people who drank poison to die and ascend to their savior who was in a ufo passing by. Like it or not this was a religion. Christianity also started as a small cult.
Those are just a few modern examples.

Beyond that we don't know the specifics on the deaths of the people you are talking about. Did they have the opportunity to recant or gainsay? Did they even exist?

 

[joelr]

There is a minimum core which most historians would agree on that
Jesus existed, he was crucified, his disciples came to believe he rose and held that belief till death
see Gary Habermas and Mike Licona on that

Habermas is a joke, hes cites medical miracles as proof of Jesus?

Richard Carrier has a good debate with Licona:

I can see where Liconas logic fails, Carrier points out the gospels are not reliable and Licona responds with "well it says so in the gospels..." but draw your own conclusions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Again, you flat out refuse to account for my pending points and yet repeat this.

No, I dealt with your points and explained how you failed to support any of your claims. Again. The article that I linked explained that 2 Peter was not written by Peter. The only claims that you have that Paul was accepted by Peter were written by Paul.

Paul declared himself to be an apostle and I declared myself to be President of Panama. They are both worthless claims. If you read Paul he clearly thought that the end was coming soon and was very against sex He would excuse sex for married couples but he even thought that that was a bad idea.

 

[Prometheus85]

Ok...dive DEEPER then. Did David and jim KNOW there beliefs wer wrong? And what wer there beliefs?

Jim jones knew full well that the faith healing treatments were all fake and likely hired private detectives to acquire personal info about churchgoers and people in Indianapolis, while also pocketing everything they gave to the Temple. And as far as his beliefs go...Accounts from former members have revealed that they didn't learn about religion but about socialism.

David Koresh was a nut job who believed he was Jesus and took “spiritual wives” – in the form of adult women and girls as young as age 12 – that would give him the future leaders of the world. He was also a anti government gun nut which lead to disastrous results. Did he know what he was doing was wrong? No because he was a nut job. But any sane person can see what he was doing was wrong.

 

[Jollybear]

You realize people die for religious beliefs in all religions. Does that mean they are all true? Even today we have suicide bombers and a cult of like 100 people who drank poison to die and ascend to their savior who was in a ufo passing by. Like it or not this was a religion. Christianity also started as a small cult.
Those are just a few modern examples.

Beyond that we don't know the specifics on the deaths of the people you are talking about. Did they have the opportunity to recant or gainsay? Did they even exist?

Oh my God. Im gonna shoot myself for the thousanth time if i got to correct this SAME misrepresentation and false info again.

But, here goes.

Dying for a belief that is false, but you dont know is false, you believe its true, is different then dying for a cause like freedom which is a way of life, although beliefs and causes can be connected to. Like wanting to be free to believe whatever. But dying for what you KNOW is a lie is unheard of in any time in all of history, it only supposidly happened one time and thats with the apostles.

As for there opertunity to recant, yes we know they had opertunity to recant. Theres sources for that. Also we know they existed. If they did not exist then we are forced to believe a giant conspiracy theory.

 

[Jollybear]

No, I dealt with your points and explained how you failed to support any of your claims. Again. The article that I linked explained that 2 Peter was not written by Peter.

The article says it was dictated by peter using another writer.

Plus, iregardless of that, wer back to paul LYING now.

The only claims that you have that Paul was accepted by Peter were written by Paul.

Paul is lying again?

Paul declared himself to be an apostle and I declared myself to be President of Panama. They are both worthless claims.

No, only your claim is worthless because you dont truly believe your the President of panama, while paul truly believed he was an apostle.

Second, your claim is worthless because your not whipped, stoned, imprisoned and myrtered for your claim, while paul was.

If you read Paul he clearly thought that the end was coming soon and was very against sex He would excuse sex for married couples but he even thought that that was a bad idea.

Im not even gonna get distracted on this again. Im sticking to the resurrection topic.

 

[Prometheus85]

Oh my God. Im gonna shoot myself for the thousanth time if i got to correct this SAME misrepresentation and false info again.

But, here goes.

Dying for a belief that is false, but you dont know is false, you believe its true, is different then dying for a cause like freedom which is a way of life, although beliefs and causes can be connected to. Like wanting to be free to believe whatever. But dying for what you KNOW is a lie is unheard of in any time in all of history, it only supposidly happened one time and thats with the apostles.

As for there opertunity to recant, yes we know they had opertunity to recant. Theres sources for that. Also we know they existed. If they did not exist then we are forced to believe a giant conspiracy theory.

Wait a minute. Are u saying the apostles died for a lie? Since it only happened one time and that’s with the apostles?

As for dying for a lie being unheard of in history is false. 9/11 hijakers dies for a lie, Jim jones cult members died for a lie, Davis Koresh cult members including himself died for a lie, heavens gate followers died for a lie. The list goes on.

 

[Jollybear]

Jim jones knew full well that the faith healing treatments were all fake and likely hired private detectives to acquire personal info about churchgoers and people in Indianapolis, while also pocketing everything they gave to the Temple. And as far as his beliefs go...Accounts from former members have revealed that they didn't learn about religion but about socialism.

Ok, so jim was a lier that sought power and freedom in a nut shell. Is that safe to say?

Ok, now, did he die a myrter? No, it was suicide. Was he persecuted? No, government merely was checking up on things to see if he allowed his followers freedom to leave the resort. He committed suicide and murdered his followers. All for power and freedom. It was not myterdom.

David Koresh was a nut job who believed he was Jesus and took “spiritual wives” – in the form of adult women and girls as young as age 12 – that would give him the future leaders of the world. He was also a anti government gun nut which lead to disastrous results. Did he know what he was doing was wrong? No because he was a nut job. But any sane person can see what he was doing was wrong.

Ok, so, david was wrong but did not KNOW he was wrong. So, he never died for what he KNEW was a lie then.

The apostles, they did not commit suicide, they did not murder. And there motives per there own teachings wer not for power or freedom (not completely anyhow), but there cause was there claims to the life and resurrection and gospel of Jesus. They wer persecuted and myrtered for that. They would have had to KNOW it was ALL lies, UNLIKE david.

Plus, using jim and david are a distraction to the real avaluation of paul and the apostles. Each case has to be avaluated on its own merit.

We cant investigate paul by looking at jim no more then we could investigate jim by looking at paul.

 

[Jollybear]

Wait a minute. Are u saying the apostles died for a lie? Since it only happened one time and that’s with the apostles?

As for dying for a lie being unheard of in history is false. 9/11 hijakers dies for a lie, Jim jones cult members died for a lie, Davis Koresh cult members including himself died for a lie, heavens gate followers died for a lie. The list goes on.

This constant misrepresentation is getting on my nerves.

Do people know how to even debate

Good lord, i could debate your positions better then all you could.

Represent the issues correctly. Stop the strawman arguments.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The article says it was dictated by peter using another writer.

Plus, iregardless of that, wer back to paul LYING now.



Paul is lying again?



No, only your claim is worthless because you dont truly believe your the President of panama, while paul truly believed he was an apostle.

Second, your claim is worthless because your not whipped, stoned, imprisoned and myrtered for your claim, while paul was.



Im not even gonna get distracted on this again. Im sticking to the resurrection topic.

Crap, you are still making the same mistake. Enough with this black and white fallacy of yours. It is an error to use the same standards on a nutburger as One would when dealing with a sane person.

 

[Jollybear]

Crap, you are still making the same mistake. Enough with this black and white fallacy of yours. It is an error to use the same standards on a nutburger as One would when dealing with a sane person.

You see what you just did? You assumed paul was a nutburger and not sane.

Your starting off with the assumption that hes nuts WITHOUT answering all the problems that go with that.

Your refusing accountability in this debate.

 

[Apologes]

Habermas is a joke, hes cites medical miracles as proof of Jesus?

Richard Carrier has a good debate with Licona:

I can see where Liconas logic fails, Carrier points out the gospels are not reliable and Licona responds with "well it says so in the gospels..." but draw your own conclusions.

You call Habermas a joke and then you refer to a fringe mythicist who made practically no contribution to contemporary historical Jesus scholarship and who makes a living off of writing biased and immature anti-religious blogs for a band of even less mature anti-theists since no university in the field wants him? No thanks.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You see what you just did? You assumed paul was a nutburger and not sane.

Your starting off with the assumption that hes nuts WITHOUT answering all the problems that go with that.

Your refusing accountability in this debate.

No, I did not assume. That is another word that theists should not use. They do not seem to understand it. I gave reasons in earlier posts. If you cannot follow the conversation, and that seems to be a problem since you keep repeating this "lie" error I don't think that you will ever be able to understand how the Bible fails. But then that is what cognitive dissonance does. It is a defensive action taken by a person's mind so that they can avoid learning why they are wrong.

 

[Prometheus85]

Ok, so jim was a lier that sought power and freedom in a nut shell. Is that safe to say?

Ok, now, did he die a myrter? No, it was suicide. Was he persecuted? No, government merely was checking up on things to see if he allowed his followers freedom to leave the resort. He committed suicide and murdered his followers. All for power and freedom. It was not myterdom.



Ok, so, david was wrong but did not KNOW he was wrong. So, he never died for what he KNEW was a lie then.

The apostles, they did not commit suicide, they did not murder. And there motives per there own teachings wer not for power or freedom (not completely anyhow), but there cause was there claims to the life and resurrection and gospel of Jesus. They wer persecuted and myrtered for that. They would have had to KNOW it was ALL lies, UNLIKE david.

Plus, using jim and david are a distraction to the real avaluation of paul and the apostles. Each case has to be avaluated on its own merit.

We cant investigate paul by looking at jim no more then we could investigate jim by looking at paul.

What are u talking about? I never said anything about martyrdom in regards to Jim jones???

David Koresh was a nut job who believed his own lies. But the general public knew he was worng. Because
1. He wasn’t a messiah
2. He was a sexual predator
3. And he didn’t Resurrect from the dead and appear in Physical presence in Palestine/Israel

I’m not comparing Paul or the apostles to Jim jones and David Koresh. I’m just simply answer your questions on who would die for a lie

 

[Prometheus85]

This constant misrepresentation is getting on my nerves.

Do people know how to even debate

Good lord, i could debate your positions better then all you could.

Represent the issues correctly. Stop the strawman arguments.

If i or anybody else misrepresented what you said point it out to me and others. Don’t just throw out wild accusations without any explanation or proof.

You said

"But dying for what you KNOW is a lie is unheard of in any time in all of history, it only supposidly happened one time and thats with the apostles".

Form my point of view, it look like your saying dying for a lie happen only once in history and it was the apostles who died for a lie. Am i worng?

 

[Jollybear]

Im taking a few days off from debating. Not because i fear seeing im wrong, absolutely not.

But...its because im losing my patience and i dont wanna get like that. So, im not giving up the debate. I never give up a debate. So....i will return after a few days, mayby 3 or 4.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What are u talking about? I never said anything about martyrdom in regards to Jim jones???

David Koresh was a nut job who believed his own lies. But the general public knew he was worng. Because
1. He wasn’t a messiah
2. He was a sexual predator
3. And he didn’t Resurrect from the dead and appear in Physical presence in Palestine/Israel

I’m not comparing Paul or the apostles to Jim jones and David Koresh. I’m just simply answer your questions on who would die for a lie

I guess we need to define by what is meant by "a lie". We all know that about Koresh, what is unknown is how far off the deep end he was. Paul may have known that his claims, such as the Road to Damascus story, were false. Or he may really have believed that. I have continually tried to explain that Paul may not have known to no avail.

 

[Prometheus85]

Im taking a few days off from debating. Not because i fear seeing im wrong, absolutely not.

But...its because im losing my patience and i dont wanna get like that. So, im not giving up the debate. I never give up a debate. So....i will return after a few days, mayby 3 or 4.

Excuses, excuses. Your basically giving up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Excuses, excuses. Your basically giving up.

Maybe a few days will enable him to see his errors.