Jesus sacrifice is completely pointless

[gnostic]

The prophecies don't say God is going to sacrifice/murder him, it says we murdered him, and then make him into a sin offering, thus proving who is evil/ravenous, and needs removing on judgement day.

How can you murder a god?

According to Christian teachings, well as least to the one that I was subjected to, that god is omnipotent, or all-powerful. That he (if Jesus was god) could be killed, seemed to be contradictory to his omnipotence.

 

[cambridge79]

Thank you.
I didn't think it was a stupid question at all. In your post you said that some people understand it and some don't. And in fact I have met numerous Christians who admit to not understanding it. Some of whom still believe it eventhough the don't understand it. In fact I am usually surprised when I meet someone who says they do understand it.

But thank you for answering the question.

yet still hasn't provided his/her explanation he/she just said he/she has one. i would be curious to know what i'm missing here.

 

[Thief]

Sometimes people stand WITH the authorities and completely agree 100% and are still condemned.

Nothing new. Authority seeks power. They's what it does at all costs. Humanity is but grist for the mill.

that takes the Carpenter's effort out of context.

most Christians would prefer His death of the cross to be intentional...
as if the blood letting was the actual focus and we are saved ONLY by that death.

I don't buy it.

His ministry and teachings are the items of importance.

 

[Oldsoul]

So many of us are missing the point of the Crucifixion ..

It's not ALL about the fact that it happened .. it's also about the fact that God did not intervene.

That in itself speaks volumes.

 

[fantome profane]

yet still hasn't provided his/her explanation he/she just said he/she has one. i would be curious to know what i'm missing here.

But to be fair I didn't ask that. You can if you want. Good luck.

(p.s. The Lady is female)

 

[Thief]

like you I did notice......
He said aloud....Why have You forsaken Me?????

no One answered.

 

[fantome profane]

So many of us are missing the point of the Crucifixion ..

It's not ALL about the fact that it happened .. it's also about the fact that God did not intervene.

That in itself speaks volumes.

That is a really interesting point. The non-intervention of "God" does say something. I am not sure everyone would agree on what it says, but it does say something.

 

[Thief]

That is a really interesting point. The non-intervention of "God" does say something. I am not sure everyone would agree on what it says, but it does say something.

in the last hour your spirit draws whatever strength it has left.
it is in this hour the person you are takes form
and it is this form that heaven has interest.

so I believe

 

[cambridge79]

But to be fair I didn't ask that. You can if you want. Good luck.

(p.s. The Lady is female)

Well I actually did and im still waiting, maybe im so stupid im not worth an answer

 

[outhouse]

It's not ALL about the fact that it happened

Sure it is. Only men wrote and created theology in mythology. By the perceived selfless actions of a Galilean peasant that ended up becoming more famous then the emperor himself.

.. it's also about the fact that God did not intervene.

That concept has never been shown to exist, and cheapens the Galileans actions.

 

[raph]

If you find it illogical that through Christs death, somekind of supernatural power was released that took away our sins, there is another meaning to the sacrifice that is not illogical at all.

Jesus came and brought a message to us. He could not give us the message without being killed. This message of love changed the hearts of many people for the better. This message of love freed people from their sins. He could not give the message without being killed. Therefore He sacrificed Himself to save us.

 

[Augustus]

Do we really need a man to suffer, to be tortured, be humiliated and ultimately be crucified and killed ( temporarily ) in order to follow him?
Of course we dont. We just need a just man that talks sense possibly with a bit of charisma.

Jesus, the Son of God, came to earth to walk amongst men, performed great miracles then died on the cross in order to atone for all of our sins and free us from the strictures of the. His resurrection and ascendence to heaven stand as a shining beacon of hope to the world for ever more.

Jesus, a carpenter, talked some sense (sometimes in a mildly charismatic way). "Blessed are the immigrants, because far from scrounging off your tax money, they actually contribute to our overall prosperity. Also, don't worry too much about the Russian threat, their military is vastly overrated and certainly no match for the NATO alliance. And if you want a great deal, buy a new mobile phone just after the new flagship model has been released, you will find the old version will now be selling at half the price it was only a month previously. Saved a fortune on my Samsung Galaxy and the new model is pretty much the same phone with a slightly better camera. Cracking value it was."


Can see why you haven't founded any religions recently

 

[wizanda]

How can you murder a god?

You can't steal the metaphysical, by murdering the physical... Yet a divine being born in human form (son of man), of course we can die.

According to Christian teachings, well as least to the one that I was subjected to, that god is omnipotent, or all-powerful. That he (if Jesus was god) could be killed, seemed to be contradictory to his omnipotence.

This again is my point, Christianity is a lie... The idea of him being God stems from the fake gospel of John, and the letters of Paul; so then trying to build a theological understanding on a faulty premise, leads to the whole making no sense.

 

[Yoshua]

What bothers me most about the whole thing is we're supposedly being "saved" from something we didn't do. Some time ago, supposedly, someone ate the wrong piece of fruit. Fast forward a few thousand years and I'm born. I didn't do a damn thing, I'm just sitting there crapping my diapers and I'm considered guilty of a crime I didn't commit. Now I need some way out of it and, hey what do you know, I can get a get out of jail free card if I worship this dude and join his cult.

Hi Demonslayer,

Same with me, and not only you, but I don’t blame Adam and Eve for that. I focused forward and not backward for God’s blessing of salvation has come. His grace is forever with us. By the way, Jesus’ Christianity is not a cult.

I didn't do anything that would require forgiveness! Imagine putting Steven Booth, John Wilkes Booth's great-great-great-great-grandson in jail for the murder of Abraham Lincoln? Only replace "murdering Abraham Lincoln" with "eating the incorrect apple."

What a frame job! God tags us all with the responsibility of someone else's bad actions, then concocts a melodramatic solution designed to make us feel guilty about the murder of his son? Ask yourself this question...if a guy killed someone, then put the gun in your hand and you got sent to jail for the crime, would you thank and praise that same guy when he came to bail you out? Of course not. Then why thank and praise God for "forgiving" you for a crime he saddled you with unfairly in the first place? It's like in all the evil spy movies when the bad guy injects someone with poison and then dangles the antidote in front of their face.

I believe that your example of sending an innocent guy to go to jail is a perfect example of what Jesus Christ did. They accused Him, denied and betrayed. He is not deserved to be crucified because He is a sinless person. But because of God’s love, He do the undeserving punishment for the forgiveness of sins.

The OP is right, Jesus' death was completely arbitrary and unnecessary. Why not just forgive us? Why not just stop blaming us for the fruit incident and judge us on our own actions? Why not make some other requirement, like doing 5 good deeds a week, for forgiveness instead of the requirement being for us to feel guilty about, and partially responsible for, Jesus' death?

I believe He already forgave us when we learn how to forgive others. The Bible said that we will not be saved by our good works but by faith that automatically brought us to do good works.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

This is the whole point....

The prophecies don't say God is going to sacrifice/murder him, it says we murdered him, and then make him into a sin offering, thus proving who is evil/ravenous, and needs removing on judgement day.

Christianity is anti-Christ's teachings, as they don't follow him, they follow the made up Pharisee's gospel of John, and the letters of Paul.

We're in a place closer to Hell, so to remove all the workers of iniquity, the Bible establishes a snare across time, to catch out those quick to the spoils

Hi Wizanda,

How could you prove that Christianity is anti-Christ teachings?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

but that's exactly the point, it is exactly pointless.

Do you need your dad to cut his own arm in order to prove you he loves you? No, because there are many other ways he could do that. And if one day at christmas he gives you a box with his own arm in it telling you "this is to show you i love you" you would consider him to be gone mad.
tell me this: if you could already tell Jesus to be the son of God ( because of the miracles, the teachings, the wisdom and the prophecies ) and he did everything he has done in the gospels except the torture and the crucifixion would you go "well, you know, the guy didn't die for me, so i won't really care about him" or would you go "well, he is the son of god, he talks sense, i will follow him". Imagine at age 33 he simply had his last supper with his 12 followers and said "my role here is over, it's up to you now, i will go back to where i come from" and simply disappear in the sky. in wich way would it be different?
in wich way his message wouldn't be as meaningful?
If you will still stick to Jesus than i've proven his crucifixion is pointless,
if you won't still stick to jesus than you don't really believe his words.

Hi Cambridge,

I think you missed what Jesus told them before His ascension to heaven. Jesus said He will be with us (always). He will not leave us as orphans because the Helper (Holy Spirit) will be with us.

Matt. 28:18-20
18. And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20. teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 14;16-18
16. "And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you.
18. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

on the other hand, let's consider his point of view, the perspective of God. He is basically cheating. He already knows he won't die, he already knows what is expecting him. It's like for me when the magician brings me up on the stage telling that he will cut me in half but in fact i know he will not actually cut me in half. Or when you watch a movie and the protagonist is in danger but you already know he will survive because you know how the movie will finish.
So this is pointless both from the point of view of the believer ( as i said many other prophets and wise men like muhammad or siddartha didn't have to die in a gruesome way to prove their point ) and from the point of view of god wich in fact does nothing special: he is actually not sacrificing his son at all, first because ultimately his son doesn't die, and secondly because for him death is not anything special at all.

That is the point indeed. Do Muhammad showed us His love? Mohammad cannot do what Jesus Christ did. This is the real purpose why God’s used the highest form of punishment so no one can duplicate or boast of Christ’s suffering and crucifixion.

The next thing is when Jesus Christ died, He resurrected and not died forever. This is another scenario that nobody can duplicate nor boast of what he did for the sake of many.

Therefore, we cannot judge on it as nothing special or pointless. It is the opposite, obviously and logically the opposite.

i think if god thinks we need to see his son whipped, humiliated, bloody, gory, crucifixed and insulted in order to understand he loves us there are two possible explanation:
- he is not that bright
- he thinks we are really dumb ( and considering that he made us this leads again to the fact that he is not that bright )

How can you say that God is not bright for a man is like an ant in God’s eyes? God created us in His own image, no way to say that he treated as like a dumb.

Thanks

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ugh. Instead of taking things so seriously, why don't you look into the symbolism of it?

The symbolism of it is pretty awful, too.

Mythology is best taken metaphorically and allegorically. Mainstream religion is a huge mess because it takes things more literally and dumbs things down for the masses. "New Atheist" types are just as bad because they don't bother to understand things on a deeper level, often developing the same sort of mentality that religious fundamentalists do, just the flip-side of it.

"New Atheist" types respond to the religious beliefs they're presented with. It isn't their job to come up with religious understandings that theists "ought to have".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you find it illogical that through Christs death, somekind of supernatural power was released that took away our sins, there is another meaning to the sacrifice that is not illogical at all.

Jesus came and brought a message to us. He could not give us the message without being killed. This message of love changed the hearts of many people for the better. This message of love freed people from their sins. He could not give the message without being killed. Therefore He sacrificed Himself to save us.

So in your view, God is not omnipotent?

(Since if God was omnipotent, he could have arranged it so Jesus could teach what he wanted and then not be killed)

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

We will attack this from a different angle, just for you.

What made Jesus famous?

Many think it was Jesus' message, yet most stories about free healings ... guess Roman docs were just too expensive?

Hi Cambridge,

The key is the love of God. The reason of Jesus’ suffering & crucifixion is not to follow Him for man has given a free-will. By God’s love, He saved us by using the most cruel and the gravest punishment to show that His love has no equality.

By God's love, He could just do as He had always done and just go "yeah, man ... we cool". Jesus was unnecessary for God's forgiveness.

John 3:16-17

Harry Potter died to save us from Voldemort. Obi-Wan died to guide Luke into bringing balance to the Force. Sailor Moon has died a couple of times, I think, to save the world. Jesus Christ, has Goku sacrificed himself to save the planet ...

To free us from the slavery of sins

And yet Christians still sin. Just read a story of a Christian throwing hot coffee on a Muslim at a park. Did Jesus tell her to do that?

Jesus is also a man of charisma, this is why people followed Him as narrated by the Bible.

Hitler was pops back in the day too, and is currently having a repeat upswing in the pops department thanks to people like Trump.

That is God’s plan, we cannot question God about His plan because He is God. He knows what He is doing.

Please explain how Abe can ask God about the morality of roasting two cities and how Gideon can test God several times if this is the case. Please explain the purpose of Jesus telling us to judge a tree by its fruit.

LOL, I guess there was a point!

Don't forget: "If you don't promote the maintenance of infrastructures, people will die."

If you find it illogical that through Christs death, somekind of supernatural power was released that took away our sins, there is another meaning to the sacrifice that is not illogical at all.

Jesus came and brought a message to us. He could not give us the message without being killed. This message of love changed the hearts of many people for the better. This message of love freed people from their sins. He could not give the message without being killed. Therefore He sacrificed Himself to save us.

Just curious ... do you feel the same way about the Bahai's founder? I note on Wiki that he didn't last long either. Is arrest and execution necessary? Why can't the sacrificed just jump off a cliff?

I believe that your example of sending an innocent guy to go to jail is a perfect example of what Jesus Christ did. They accused Him, denied and betrayed. He is not deserved to be crucified because He is a sinless person. But because of God’s love, He do the undeserving punishment for the forgiveness of sins.

Broke several commandments, arguably did things in the vein of the temptations, and arguably fomented rebellion (either for real or at least in his zealous followers' minds) which is the real reason the Romans offed him (and even if you deny the legality of why the Romans did it, fomenting rebellion or even implying it could lead to the deaths of innocent people and I would definitely consider that a sin).

 

[outhouse]

Many think it was Jesus' message, yet most stories about free healings ... guess Roman docs were just too expensive?

As you know, the healing was important and a great way to Proselytize your message.

Health care was for the rich, and even they had it very bad in these times.

I think he like any typical Galilean rabbi cold heal, I'm sure he learned much from John.


It has been my view that only his actions in the temple made him famous. We know John was much more famous and drew large crowds, Jesus to me, would have learned from Johns mistake and traveled to small villages to Aramaic crowds who would not rat him off to the authorities. Not having large crowds meant he could fly under Antipas radar.


I would bet if he had gone to Sepphoris and tried teaching, he would have been killed long before Passover.