lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Very nice answer. But what does the word IS mean? That which is born of the spirit IS spirit. It is all very well and good to dance around the subject but it all comes back to "IS".
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Jesus Said "It Is Finished"
- Thread starter Nova2216
- Start date
Nova2216
Active Member
Someone else made that same statement but they were not looking for truth ( Pres. Bill C.)
Are you seriously asking that question to learn more of Gods word?
If you are correct then not one of the people who lived before the return of Christ could be born again (a Christian).
Is that your position?
Nova2216
Active Member
"Believing" in John 3:16
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
(excerpt)
A Critical Figure of Speech to consider
One common figure of speech (which has a not-so-common name) is known as synecdoche: where a part is put for the whole, or the whole for the part. A person showing off his car might say, “Check out my wheels.” “Wheels” are relatively small parts of the car yet the term is used to refer to the entire car. A military leader might refer to how many “boots they have on the ground,” when he is actually emphasizing the soldiers in the boots.
Bible writers also used synecdoche. For example, to “break bread” was a common, ancient synecdoche where “bread” (“a part”) was put for all of the food and drink that would be consumed at a common meal (“the whole”).26 After the establishment of the Church, “the breaking of bread” also came to stand for the entirety of the Lord’s Supper (where consumption of both the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine is actually meant—Acts 2:42; 20:7).
Read more here.
"Believing" in John 3:16
by Eric Lyons, M.Min.
(excerpt)
A Critical Figure of Speech to consider
One common figure of speech (which has a not-so-common name) is known as synecdoche: where a part is put for the whole, or the whole for the part. A person showing off his car might say, “Check out my wheels.” “Wheels” are relatively small parts of the car yet the term is used to refer to the entire car. A military leader might refer to how many “boots they have on the ground,” when he is actually emphasizing the soldiers in the boots.
Bible writers also used synecdoche. For example, to “break bread” was a common, ancient synecdoche where “bread” (“a part”) was put for all of the food and drink that would be consumed at a common meal (“the whole”).26 After the establishment of the Church, “the breaking of bread” also came to stand for the entirety of the Lord’s Supper (where consumption of both the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine is actually meant—Acts 2:42; 20:7).
Read more here.
"Believing" in John 3:16
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, all you have to do is read the Gospels. They have plenty of examples. Obviously you can't see any of the examples I've seen since you are there and I'm here, but if you were here you would have seen some examples.
Take care...
Nova2216
Active Member
Not one person can do a greater work than Jesus regarding miracles.
Who can walk on water? (no one)
Who can raise the dead? (no one)
Who can instantly heal? (no one)
The greater works Jesus referred to is teaching people the gospel and making them a child of God. That is the one thing the Lord could not do according to (2Cor.4:7).
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
This Treasure - The Gospel Message
Heavenly Vessels - God / Jesus / Holy Spirit / Angels
Earthly Vessels - Men
Heavenly vessels NEVER teach men how to be saved according to (2Cor.4:7).
Men teach men (2Tim.2:2) (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20).
This also helps to prove Calvinism FALSE.
Back to Miracles -
Miracles ceased around the end of the first century according to - (Zech 13:1,2) (1Cor.13;8-10) (Eph.4:11-13)
Til the unity of the faith - (Eph.4:11-13)
Jesus said all He was going to say.
The unity of the faith was written down in the gospels and the epistles..
The faith (the one true gospel) is unified within the NT.
(2Peter 1:3) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16)
...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment
...let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Who can walk on water? (no one)
Who can raise the dead? (no one)
Who can instantly heal? (no one)
The greater works Jesus referred to is teaching people the gospel and making them a child of God. That is the one thing the Lord could not do according to (2Cor.4:7).
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
This Treasure - The Gospel Message
Heavenly Vessels - God / Jesus / Holy Spirit / Angels
Earthly Vessels - Men
Heavenly vessels NEVER teach men how to be saved according to (2Cor.4:7).
Men teach men (2Tim.2:2) (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20).
This also helps to prove Calvinism FALSE.
Back to Miracles -
Miracles ceased around the end of the first century according to - (Zech 13:1,2) (1Cor.13;8-10) (Eph.4:11-13)
Til the unity of the faith - (Eph.4:11-13)
Jesus said all He was going to say.
The unity of the faith was written down in the gospels and the epistles..
The faith (the one true gospel) is unified within the NT.
(2Peter 1:3) (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16)
...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment
...let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I have no position but am seriously asking what the word "is" means when it says that which is born of the spirit IS spirit. Is it true or not? Serious question. Maybe we should continue two verses further to John 3:8 where Jesus says people who are born again are like the wind. The wind is invisible. Are you invisible? Are you born again? Did Jesus lie? Thes are serious questions and if you have serious answersI would be very happy to hear them. However do not just repeat something you read somewhere or something some minister told you. What does it mean if you ARE spirit and are invisible like the wind? Please
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I will take care but if I were like you and could do the things Jesus did I would be standing on a street corner healing every sick person who passed by. I have not seen anyone stop a war or end the virus epidemic or even end hunger in America. There must not be very many people like you who can do these great things. Talk is cheap, action very expensive. I am glad for you that you feel as great as Jesus. Good luck
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
rrobs says he can do everything Jesus could. Is he lying?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus was not able to lead anyone into the new birth since it wasn't available until after Pentecost.
Jesus always gave credit to his Father. Said he could do nothing of himself. Easy enough to relate to. With God we are everything, without Him we are nothing.
If 1 Cor 13:8 says what you say, you would have no knowledge that miracles ceased.
1Cor 13:8,
Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
How can you say Christendom is unified in faith when we have over 10,000 different denominations? You and I are just two people and we can't even be unified regarding the faith. I don't think we will come into the stature of the fullness of Christ until we see ourselves as He sees us, i.e. when Jesus returns.
1 John 3:2,
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
It is a major cop out to blame the lack of miracles in the church on them somehow having ended on some unclear date in history. The reality is that we don't see them in the church because the church simply does not believe the things Jesus said.
The church, by and large, values and holds to tradition over God's word. At every Christian funeral we hear something like, "God wanted little 2 month old Johnny to be with Him in heaven." Yikes! Why don't they say, "God murdered little Johnny because He is selfish and didn't care about little Johnny's parents." What a crock! All the while they hold the book up that clearly says God said we would die, while the devil said we would not die. Did little Johnny die or not? If he did, he's 6 feet under the ground, not in heaven. He'll get up when Jesus returns and not 1 second before. Until then he is dead. That is of course the truth if we believe God and not the devil. That's just the beginning of the errors propounded from most pulpits every Sunday morning. I guess the only good thing is that it is only one day a week.
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
You are like me and can perform miracles. You just need to educate yourself. One thing you apparently don't understand is that for healing to occur their must be believing. If people don't believe to be healed they won't be healed, hence the futility of just standing on a corner and trying to heal people, most of whom do not believe in the things Jesus said. There are several accounts in the gospels and Acts that say believing is essential to healing.
Yes, talk is cheap, so learn about healing from the scriptures, go stand on the corner and talk to people about Jesus, teaching them enough for them to believe in healing and then you can minister to their needs. It'll do wonders for your own believing.
BTW, I didn't write the Gospel of John. I'm not nearly smart enough.
John 14:12,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
I trust you noticed that little, "he that believeth" part. You want to see miracles? Start believing what Jesus said and stop making excuses. You can do it! I'd be willing to help you if you want to give it a go.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
A figure of speech is a legitimate tool of grammar used to emphasize something, to make the reader pause and think about what was said.
"The ground is dry" is a literal truth. "The ground is thirsty" is not a literal truth since dirt never actually gets thirsty. It is therefore a figure of speech.
As a master author, God used figures of speech in a most precise way. Try approaching John 3:8 with that in mind. Specifically check out the figure of speech called metaphor and then re-read John 3:8.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I did not say I could do everything Jesus did. It's Jesus' idea, not mine.
John 14:12,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
So is John 14:12 true or false?
Nova2216
Active Member
We know they had the POWER to do miracles in the first century but where is the POWER today?
People see a bright light and a camera on a person with a preachers hand on their head and they THINK a miracle has been preformed. Sometimes they will say they went to the doctor also for treatment of their sickness.
Doctor?
Why do you need a doctor or health insurance if you can do miracles?
If you go to a doctor that seems like a lack of faith to me.
Wheres the BEEF?
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power (1Cor.2:4).
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I am sure you are a great and honest man. And I agree Jesus said those who believe in Him would do great works. But where are those great works today? Can't even one person step forward and do something? When Jesus fed thousands with a small basket of fish it did not require them to believe they would be fed. When Jesus raised people from death it did not require the dead person to believe anything. Even when Jesus walked on water the desciples did not believe he could do it. So believing is not always needed. And finally no one has explained exactly what John 3:6 means. It might be a figure of speech but what does it mean? That which is born of the spirit IS spirit. Can you give a straight answer. I truly have an open mind but it seems like people just want to repeat standard answers they have and not really answer the question. That which is born of the spirit is spirit and is invisible like the wind. If you can gaive a simple plain answer to that I will move a lot closer to understanding and believing. Are you up to the job or do you just want to quote lines that are not related and say things are figures of speech without explaining. I will honestly and sincerely await your reply. Thanks.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You have no idea if I have health insurance, go to doctors or if I've ever been healed of serious disease, so why talk like you do? Actually I do have medicare insurance, but for that I have no choice. You'll get it at 64 (or so), like it or not. But even if I do have it, you have no idea if I've ever used it. FYI, I haven't.
Why do you quote 1 Cor 2:4? As I understand it, you don't actually believe in the power of holy spirit.
Acts 1:8,
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Yet another verse that apparently finds no place in your doctrine. You seem like a good, sincere Christian, so I don't understand your reticence in believing simple, clear cut declarations regarding holy spirit and the power it gives every born again believer who chooses to utilize that power in the furtherance of the gospel. Does your pastor tell you that you have no power? If so, I'd find another who actually believes and walks on the truth.
Nova2216
Active Member
Paul said he had the power and proved it by doing miracles.
Thats what (1Cor.2:4) is saying.
Pentecostals claim they do miracles but none are done.
That is why I posted (1Cor.2:4).
Doctors and health insurance would not be needed if one can do miracles. It would be a waste of money.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
When the Israelites were in the wilderness, God did the teaching. He told them through Moses how he wanted to be worshipped. Just saying that if a person gets baptized in water, he should know the teachings of the religion, and holy spirit comes after that, just as it did when Jesus got baptized. Jesus allowed John to baptize him. That tells us something. It tells us that John was proclaiming the way of the Lord properly, otherwise Jesus would not get baptized by John. And then the holy spirit came. In the form of a dove.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I trust you understand the many places in the scriptures that say one must believe before seeing a miracle or healing.
Now consider the times in which the Bible stories take place vs. our own modern times. Most notably, society as a whole did not revere science as we do today. They did not have x-ray machines that would reveal to the sick person how bad off they really were. Can you understand that may be part of the reason we don't see people believing to be healed? They see the x-ray full of white spots and it is proof positive they have cancer or whatever.
But we are always free to ask ourselves, "do I believe God or my own two eyes?"
Of course, if the orthodox church got off it's butt and started to actually believe and act on the things Jesus said, then slowly but surely God would triumph over people's own eyes. It would be Acts in living color.
Acts 19:20,
So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.
God's word not science, prevailed in their minds. That is precisely why I pray for a revival in the church, to get back to simple faith in the one true God instead of the god of science before which we so easily prostate ourselves while leaving God out in the cold. It's gotta stop.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Jesus also said to pluck your eye out if you ever lust after a woman. Are you going to do that?
Do you understand that things changed after Jesus died, was raised, and ascended? Could that not by why John said,
Matt 3:11,
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Or what about something Jesus himself said,
Acts 1:5,
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Plain stubbornness and refusal to believe the simple truth has caused many to error. Water confers nothing upon the person dunked in it. It has no power whatsoever. Billions of people across the globe, Christian and non-Christian alike, wash themselves in water every day and other than removing dirt from their bodies, absolutely nothing happens. Compare that to the baptism in holy spirit that both John and Jesus spoke about.
Acts 1:8,
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
If you want to remove dirt, water works fine, but it you want power you will need holy spirit. It just depends on how far you want to go with God. God understood that and that is why He gives us holy spirit the moment we confess Jesus as Lord and Believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9). The gift of holy spirit is what separates the Christian from the non-Christian. The fact that so few churches teach this is a testament to the power of tradition which the devil wields so deftly. They make the outside clean with little thought to the inside. But every born again believer has holy spirit, whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, or whether they avail themselves of the power it confers or not.
BTW, another dramatic change brought about by Jesus' work is that we no longer have to pluck our eyes out if we see some hot, scantly clad babe and start to get a boner. Otherwise I'm gonna guess pretty much every male in paradise would be blind.
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Here are the points I covered which which you seem to disagree:
- When the water finally dries, I'm left with nothing but maybe cleaner skin or clothes. But holy spirit will never leave. - Do you believe the incorruptible seed is not really incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23)?
- Water doesn't give me any spiritual ability but holy spirit gives me the power to do the same things Jesus did, and more. - how is it that you do not believe Acts 1:8?
- Water is an outside job whereas holy spirit is an inside job. - Is Christ not in you (Col 1:27)?
- Another person baptizes me in water whereas Jesus himself baptizes me in holy spirit. - Do you know any record where Jesus baptized in water? If not, doesn't that strike you as odd?
- John baptized in water, but Jesus baptizes in holy spirit. John is dead but Jesus is alive and well. - Hopefully I don't have to comment on that!