Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Nova2216]

So sorry. I still have to slow it down. One step at a time. You said in post 640 the kingdom = the church (Mt 16:18-19) I am not concerned with if it is spiritual or physical. Mathew 16:18-19 simply says that Jesus established the church and gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. I do not see where this proves they are the same. You also said in the same post that people were placed into the kingdom (church). Acts does say many were baptized and added to the church. There is no mention of the kingdom. I cannot see how either of these two references prove that the kingdom is the church. I am a person who looks at each word and tries to understand its meaning. I see church mentioned in Acts 2 but not kingdom. That makes it hard for me to say they are the same. Hope you can help.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. (Dan. 2:30-44)

A kingdom was to be established according to (Dan.2:44).

Then we see the timeline for this kingdom to be established.

This image's head was of fine gold, (Babylon)

his breast and his arms of silver, (Medo Persia)

his belly and his thighs of brass, (Greece)

legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Rome)


In (Acts 2) we are located in Rome.



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer.31:31-34) (Heb.8:6-13)

In (Jer.31:31-34) we see a NEW COVENANT was to be established with the house of Israel. It will be different from the OT Law. It will be a LAW placed in the hearts of men. This NEW LAW will have a provision for the forgiveness of sins (Heb.8:6-13).

So above we have the timeline for the establishment of THE KINGDOM and its provision for the forgiveness of sins (A LAW). (Acts 2:38,47)


Are you with me so far?


Thanks for asking very good questions.

 

[rrobs]

Well, it proves even with unbelief Jesus done miracles

Yes. What a guy, that Jesus!

Your point was they had to have faith before a miracle would be done.

More or less.

I was reading Jeremiah this morning and noticed that God would tell Israel they were done because of their actions, and the next you know He was telling them he'd still fulfill His promises He made to them in the desert.

It's mind boggling how God could have been so merciful to them after they totally disrespected Him and His word. Few men (actually, more like no men) are as forgiving as God, even though they were treating God worse than any man ever treated another man.

Isn't there something in the Bible about grace? I think there is!

I remember one old friend who used to say, "God always votes for you. The devil always votes against you. You determine the election." While it is certainly true God can work around my stupidity and wrong vote (i.e. wrong believing), it is much better just to vote with God. Things are cleaner and more certain that way.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. (Dan. 2:30-44)

A kingdom was to be established according to (Dan.2:44).

Then we see the timeline for this kingdom to be established.

This image's head was of fine gold, (Babylon)

his breast and his arms of silver, (Medo Persia)

his belly and his thighs of brass, (Greece)

legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Rome)


In (Acts 2) we are located in Rome.



Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer.31:31-34) (Heb.8:6-13)

In (Jer.31:31-34) we see a NEW COVENANT was to be established with the house of Israel. It will be different from the OT Law. It will be a LAW placed in the hearts of men. This NEW LAW will have a provision for the forgiveness of sins (Heb.8:6-13).

So above we have the timeline for the establishment of THE KINGDOM and its provision for the forgiveness of sins (A LAW). (Acts 2:38,47)


Are you with me so far?


Thanks for asking very good questions.

I have that a kingdom was going to be established. And in Acts 2 many were placed in the church. So please go on.

 

[Nova2216]

I have that a kingdom was going to be established. And in Acts 2 many were placed in the church. So please go on.

The evidence must be shown and understood.

Just follow me and we will arrive at the right conclusion if we both have a good and honest heart.

In (Dan.2:44) A KINGDOM was to be established but in (Acts 2:47) it is called THE CHURCH.

Once again we see these words being used interchangeably



Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

Yes. What a guy, that Jesus!


More or less.

I was reading Jeremiah this morning and noticed that God would tell Israel they were done because of their actions, and the next you know He was telling them he'd still fulfill His promises He made to them in the desert.

It's mind boggling how God could have been so merciful to them after they totally disrespected Him and His word. Few men (actually, more like no men) are as forgiving as God, even though they were treating God worse than any man ever treated another man.

Isn't there something in the Bible about grace? I think there is!

I remember one old friend who used to say, "God always votes for you. The devil always votes against you. You determine the election." While it is certainly true God can work around my stupidity and wrong vote (i.e. wrong believing), it is much better just to vote with God. Things are cleaner and more certain that way.

Grace includes law it does not exclude law.

(Titus 2:11,12) - Grace teaches men how to please God.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

 

[Nova2216]

Most people teach Calvinism.

1. I did not do it, Adam did.

2. I do not have to do anything to be saved b/c Jesus done it all on the cross.

3. After being saved I do not have t do anything b/c I cannot lose my salvation.


Calvinism is a DO NOTHING religion.


It is one of the best lies satan has come up with in a long time.

 

[rrobs]

Most people teach Calvinism.

1. I did not do it, Adam did.

2. I do not have to do anything to be saved b/c Jesus done it all on the cross.

3. After being saved I do not have t do anything b/c I cannot lose my salvation.

Calvinism is a DO NOTHING religion.

It is one of the best lies satan has come up with in a long time.

While not a fan of Calvinism, I think the following is relevant.

Point 1: I did not do it, Adam did.

Rom 5:12,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
​

Point 2: I do not have to do anything to be saved b/c Jesus done it all on the cross.

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
​

We do have to follow the directive in Romans 10:9-10. Not sure if you consider that as doing anything to be saved. One thing to consider is that we were dead in trespasses and sins, so there couldn't be too much work we could have done.

​

1Pet 1:23,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
​

I just take God's word for it that the seed by which I am His son is really incorruptible. If there is anything I could do to un-become His son, I wouldn't think the seed would be at all incorruptible.

Clearly, there are no good works we can do before we are born again, given the dead state of our flesh. Even after the new birth, the flesh is still dead.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Looks like our salvation began apart from works (v.2) and that it will be perfected apart from works (v. 3.)

What motivates you do do good works? Do you try to subjugate your flesh with the desire to become more perfect before God?

Here's what motivates me;

Titus 2:14,

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
​

Who purified me? Jesus, not me. I don't have to beat my flesh into submission. After all, it's still dead! The more I renew my mind to God's word and learn what God has done for me, the more I naturally want to be like Jesus. No more work than going to sleep when I am tired. I want to go to bed, no need to force myself.

Galatians mentions perfection by the spirit.

Rom 8:5,

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
​

Attempting to control the flesh requires that our minds be on the flesh. I have to keep score of my own sins and try to stop doing them. It's all about "me." On the other hand, if I forget me and keep my mind and thoughts on Jesus, I will be perfected, I will naturally want to walk pleasing to God. No need to force anything beyond keeping my mind on God's word and off of myself.

 

[Nova2216]

The Kingdom and the Church

by James R. Cope


(excerpt)

Because the word "church" and the word "kingdom" do not mean the same it does not necessarily follow that they are not the same thing. Words may signify different meanings yet refer to the same institution. The words "church" and "body" have different meanings, yet the church is called "the body" of Christ (Ephesians 1:22). The church is also called the "house of God" (I Timothy 3:15), a "temple" (I Corinthians 3:17), "building" (Ephesians 2:21), and "household" (Ephesians 2:19). These various terms emphasize different features of the church -- its family, worship, fellowship features, etc. Likewise when the church is called a kingdom its governmental feature is brought into prominence.

When the church and kingdom are studied they are found to agree in the following particulars: 1) The source of authority or the Head, 2) the laws, 3) the subjects, and 4) the territory. As observed above each of these is an essential element to the kingdom's existence. It can also be seen that the church has these same essential points.

A study of the above passages reveals that the church and the kingdom are identical in the chief executive, His laws, His subjects, and His territory or realm of influence. It is impossible for one to be in the kingdom and not be in the church and equally impossible for one to be in the church and out of the kingdom. Members of the church are citizens of the kingdom and vice versa. Christ does not have one institution on earth called the "kingdom" and another called the "church." The law of admission into both is the same and the laws governing conduct of subjects are identical. Both are confined to earth while their chief executive is in heaven and the heart of the subject is the realm of influence in this world.


Read more here.

The Church Is the Kingdom

 

[rrobs]

The Kingdom and the Church

by James R. Cope

Because the word "church" and the word "kingdom" do not mean the same it does not necessarily follow that they are not the same thing. Words may signify different meanings yet refer to the same institution. The words "church" and "body" have different meanings, yet the church is called "the body" of Christ (Ephesians 1:22). The church is also called the "house of God" (I Timothy 3:15), a "temple" (I Corinthians 3:17), "building" (Ephesians 2:21), and "household" (Ephesians 2:19). These various terms emphasize different features of the church -- its family, worship, fellowship features, etc. Likewise when the church is called a kingdom its governmental feature is brought into prominence.

When the church and kingdom are studied they are found to agree in the following particulars: 1) The source of authority or the Head, 2) the laws, 3) the subjects, and 4) the territory. As observed above each of these is an essential element to the kingdom's existence. It can also be seen that the church has these same essential points.

A study of the above passages reveals that the church and the kingdom are identical in the chief executive, His laws, His subjects, and His territory or realm of influence. It is impossible for one to be in the kingdom and not be in the church and equally impossible for one to be in the church and out of the kingdom. Members of the church are citizens of the kingdom and vice versa. Christ does not have one institution on earth called the "kingdom" and another called the "church." The law of admission into both is the same and the laws governing conduct of subjects are identical. Both are confined to earth while their chief executive is in heaven and the heart of the subject is the realm of influence in this world.

The Church Is the Kingdom

The phrase "kingdom of God" is used 69 times in the gospels and epistles. There is nowhere that speaks of the "kingdom of the church." The church is part of the kingdom, but I see no justification whatsoever for saying they are the same thing. That's like saying a wheel is the same as the car.

The phrase "wrath to come" is used 3 times. Two of them are in the gospels where Jesus is talking to the Jews. Both of them say they there is a wrath to come. Some thought they could escape it but Jesus said no.

The other usage is used of the church.

1Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
​

How does than not say the church is delivered from the wrath to come?

From just the one article you gave me, it seems James Cope does not understand administrations or different peoples. He appears to lump all times and peoples into one big pile. I'm not even sure where he puts the OT Jews.

Is he saying that the Jews and church follow the same law? What law? Of Moses or some other law?

What about the same subjects? Is he saying that there are Jews in the church?

I wonder if he places any difference between the body and the bride. Do you, or do you see them as one and the same?

Lot's of questions, I guess, but I'm trying to understand what James Cope, and presumably you, are saying.

 

[rrobs]

The Kingdom and the Church

by James R. Cope

Because the word "church" and the word "kingdom" do not mean the same it does not necessarily follow that they are not the same thing. Words may signify different meanings yet refer to the same institution. The words "church" and "body" have different meanings, yet the church is called "the body" of Christ (Ephesians 1:22). The church is also called the "house of God" (I Timothy 3:15), a "temple" (I Corinthians 3:17), "building" (Ephesians 2:21), and "household" (Ephesians 2:19). These various terms emphasize different features of the church -- its family, worship, fellowship features, etc. Likewise when the church is called a kingdom its governmental feature is brought into prominence.

When the church and kingdom are studied they are found to agree in the following particulars: 1) The source of authority or the Head, 2) the laws, 3) the subjects, and 4) the territory. As observed above each of these is an essential element to the kingdom's existence. It can also be seen that the church has these same essential points.

A study of the above passages reveals that the church and the kingdom are identical in the chief executive, His laws, His subjects, and His territory or realm of influence. It is impossible for one to be in the kingdom and not be in the church and equally impossible for one to be in the church and out of the kingdom. Members of the church are citizens of the kingdom and vice versa. Christ does not have one institution on earth called the "kingdom" and another called the "church." The law of admission into both is the same and the laws governing conduct of subjects are identical. Both are confined to earth while their chief executive is in heaven and the heart of the subject is the realm of influence in this world.

The Church Is the Kingdom

James Cope said,

"For premillennialists to deny that the "kingdom" of Daniel 2:44; 7:13,14; Colossians 1;13; Hebrews 12:28; Matthew 16:19 is the same institution as the "church" of Matthew 16:18; Ephesians 1:22,23; 5:23,25; Colossians 1:18,24; I Timothy 3:15 is nothing new."
​

I'm pretty sure your knowledge of the mystery (Jews and Gentiles, one body, i.e. the church) includes the fact that nobody knew it until God revealed it to Paul. Yet Cope is saying that both Daniel and Matthew knew about it.

There is record in Matthew that shows just how secret the mystery really was. In his description of the end times, Jesus said,

Matt 24:34,

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
​

That's a tough one. I've seen many commentaries but there is only one that makes sense to me.

The only scrolls Jesus had were the OT. Of course he know them inside out, better than any man ever has or ever will I would think. Jesus knew about the 70 weeks of Daniel. What he did not know was the mystery. Not being privy to the mystery, he was under the impression that he'd be coming back after those 70 weeks. Whether the 70 weeks is actually 70 years is not that important right now. The point is, Jesus, based on what he knew at the time, was spot on correct when he said that some of the people to whom he was talking would live to see this second coming. That explains why Jesus was not "wrong" in saying some would be around to see it.

Of course, if you hold to the Platonic/Greek philosophical concept hammered out some 300 years after Jesus died, that Jesus is God, then the whole Bible makes no sense, let alone Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34. When it comes to the trinity, why do we have to go any further than the well know concept that a son and a father are two completely individuals? That ought to be enough to settle the argument.

Oh, I know all about essence, personalities, reflections, or whatever, but those terms are not in the scriptures and they are what the pagan influenced so-called"church fathers" came up with to justify their nonsense.

I hope your head is not exploding now.

God bless

 

[Nova2216]

The Kingdom of God is the Church of Christ

(Excerpt)

Mark 9:1

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power

Regarding the use of the word Kingdom, notice that the “kingdom of heaven” is used only by the book of Matthew cf: Matt. 13:31 while the other gospel writers use “Kingdom of God” Cf: Mark 4:30-31 in parallel accounts of the same passage. Therefore these Terms are used interchangeably.

Denominational teachers teach the Church was established in the days of the Apostles while the Kingdom will not be established until Jesus comes again to sit upon David’s throne in Jerusalem. Today we will show these doctrines and traditions of men are wrong.


Read more here.

The Kingdom of God is the Church of Christ Mark 9

 

[Nova2216]

Understanding the Kingdom

(excerpt)

Even the apostles, on the day of His ascension, showed their ignorance of the kingdom. Their earthly view of the establishment of a physical kingdom was shown in the question they asked Him that day. “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6).

Now, the first century world did understand that the message was being proclaimed as a kingdom which would soon be established. Deep Bible students could have figured out Daniel foretold the kingdom was to be established in the fourth world kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. They would have known that this fourth kingdom was Rome. However, even the most simple-minded person would have understood the preaching which began in the days of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist called on the Jews to repent because “the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 3:2). They could understand this and also the word of Jesus who said, “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17). He preached this in “every city and village” (Luke 8:1). The twelve apostles and the seventy disciples were sent by Jesus to tell others the kingdom was about to be established (Matt. 10:7; Luke 10:9).


Read more here.

Understanding the Kingdom

 

[Nova2216]

What does the following words mean?

(Col.1:13)

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:


Notice this is PAST TENSE.

 

[Nova2216]

Notice (Col.1:18,24)


18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Christ is the HEAD of the BODY (vs) 18

The BODY is the CHURCH (vs) 24


The CHURCH was established in (Acts 2)


Prophecies of the coming KINGDOM being established points to (Acts 2)

(Dan. 2:44)
(Isa. 2:1-5)
(Jer. 31:31-34)
(Joel 2:28)
(Luke 24:47-49)
(Acts 1:5,8)
(Acts 2:1-4,36-47)

(Acts 2:16,17) - . 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:


The Jews in (Acts 2)

The Gentiles in (Acts 10)

Jews / Gentiles = All Flesh

 

[rrobs]

Notice (Col.1:18,24)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Christ is the HEAD of the BODY (vs) 18

The BODY is the CHURCH (vs) 24

The CHURCH was established in (Acts 2)

So far, so good. The body is the church.

Why not leave it at that, and not add that the church is the kingdom? It doesn't say that here. In fact, it doesn't say that anywhere.

Prophecies of the coming KINGDOM being established points to (Acts 2)

(Dan. 2:44)
(Isa. 2:1-5)
(Jer. 31:31-34)
(Joel 2:28)
(Luke 24:47-49)
(Acts 1:5,8)
(Acts 2:1-4,36-47)

(Acts 2:16,17) - . 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:

Now we are contradicting all the verses that say the mystery, the church of the body, was not known until revealed to Paul. The only way I can see to explain this is that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joel, Luke, and all other OT writers, were talking about something other than the church of the body.

I think the big mistake is making the church of the body and the Kingdom of God one and the same thing. If we do that, then God lied when He said nobody knew the mystery of the Jews and Gentiles being one body. The prophets spoke openly about the kingdom, but God said they never spoke about the church. How could they, given it was a secret?

 

[Nova2216]

The phrase "kingdom of God" is used 69 times in the gospels and epistles. There is nowhere that speaks of the "kingdom of the church." The church is part of the kingdom, but I see no justification whatsoever for saying they are the same thing. That's like saying a wheel is the same as the car.

The phrase "wrath to come" is used 3 times. Two of them are in the gospels where Jesus is talking to the Jews. Both of them say they there is a wrath to come. Some thought they could escape it but Jesus said no.

The other usage is used of the church.

1Thess 1:10,

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
​

How does than not say the church is delivered from the wrath to come?

From just the one article you gave me, it seems James Cope does not understand administrations or different peoples. He appears to lump all times and peoples into one big pile. I'm not even sure where he puts the OT Jews.

Is he saying that the Jews and church follow the same law? What law? Of Moses or some other law?

What about the same subjects? Is he saying that there are Jews in the church?

I wonder if he places any difference between the body and the bride. Do you, or do you see them as one and the same?

Lot's of questions, I guess, but I'm trying to understand what James Cope, and presumably you, are saying.

Rob - Is he saying that the Jews and church follow the same law? What law? Of Moses or some other law?

Nova - YES, everyone is under the very same law today. (Rom.8:2) (Jas.1:25) (Gal.6:2).

...the law of Christ.

That law was spoken of in (Jer.31:31-34).

We also see it in (Heb.8:6-13)

Notice in both scriptures it mentions the provision for the forgiveness of sins.

Forgiveness of sins is mentioned in (Acts 2:38).

Repent, and be baptized ... for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).



Rob - What about the same subjects? Is he saying that there are Jews in the church?


Nova - Peter said the Jews who obeyed (Acts 2:38) were added to the church by the Lord (Acts 2:47)

Notice what Paul said in (Gal.3:28).

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.



Rob - I wonder if he places any difference between the body and the bride. Do you, or do you see them as one and the same?

Nova - The Body / The Church / The Bride are all one in the same. (Eph.1:22,23)

 

[rrobs]

What does the following words mean?

(Col.1:13)

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Notice this is PAST TENSE.

I won't argue there. In fact, that is further proof that our salvation is permanent, so permanent that we are already in Jesus' kingdom. It is further validation that we have been born again of incorruptible seed, that we are at this very moment seated with Jesus at the right hand of God. That's how God sees us.

Unfortunately, far to many Christians don't really believe this. They think that it might happen sometime in the future if they act "good enough" to deserve it, if they don't commit too many sins. Or one big one? I don't know. It's unclear what they think once they stray that far from the truth that Jesus finished the job he started. It gets muddled.

 

[Nova2216]

So far, so good. The body is the church.

Why not leave it at that, and not add that the church is the kingdom? It doesn't say that here. In fact, it doesn't say that anywhere.


Now we are contradicting all the verses that say the mystery, the church of the body, was not known until revealed to Paul. The only way I can see to explain this is that Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joel, Luke, and all other OT writers, were talking about something other than the church of the body.

I think the big mistake is making the church of the body and the Kingdom of God one and the same thing. If we do that, then God lied when He said nobody knew the mystery of the Jews and Gentiles being one body. The prophets spoke openly about the kingdom, but God said they never spoke about the church. How could they, given it was a secret?

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16)


How does one get into something which does not exist?


It seems your still between a rock and a hard place.

 

[rrobs]

Rob - Is he saying that the Jews and church follow the same law? What law? Of Moses or some other law?

Nova - YES, everyone is under the very same law today. (Rom.8:2) (Jas.1:25) (Gal.6:2).

I trust you are not saying that the law of Christ is the same as the law of Moses. If so, what was God talking about when he said the law made nothing perfect (Heb 7:19), that no man is justified by the law (Rom 3:20)? While the law of Moses did neither, Jesus did both.

Jer 31:31,

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
​

You may be Jewish, but I'm not. I have nothing to do with that covenant.

How do you make sense out of the Bible, mixing up peoples and times together like that?

Why do you insist in putting the church of the body where it does not belong? God said Jeremiah did not know about the church of the body, the mystery. He knew of the bride, but not the body.

 

[rrobs]

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luke 16:16)

How does one get into something which does not exist?

It seems your still between a rock and a hard place.

Sorry to keep bringing this up over and over, but in the Gospel of Luke nobody know about the mystery. The Church of the Body did not exist during the time about which Luke wrote in the Gospel. He learned it slowly as he recorded in the transitional Book of Acts, but neither he, nor anybody other than God, knew anything about the church of the Body at that time. He knew about the bride, i.e. Israel, but not the body, i.e. Christians.

You just can't use any OT book to say anything about the Church of the Body. That includes the gospels. Forget the big red letters, "The New Testament" in front of Matthew. They were added by man and they did so in error. Those men must have been inspired by Satan, because it has caused no end of confusion in the Christian church.

The Church of the Body came into existence on the Day of Pentecost. Acts describes the early days of the church as they learned the differences between their old Law of Moses way of life and the new life found in Christ Jesus. Later, God revealed the fullness of the mystery to Paul which he passed on to us. Before Paul NOBODY knew about the mystery. That's what it means when God said NOBODY knew about the mystery. He meant what He said, and said what He meant. We just need to believe it.

I'm not stuck between any rock and hard place. The only rock I'm involved in is the rock Jesus Christ who dwell richly within me.