Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[rrobs]

Ezek.18: 20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God said that death entered the world when Adam sinned. It says that death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Rom 5:12,

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
​

Both Ezekiel and Paul were inspired by God. They must be saying the same thing if the word of God is really truth refined 7 times.

Paul said death passed upon all men. There are no exceptions that I can see, including babies. They die just like the rest of us. The devil took exception to that in Genesis 3:4, but surely we are not going to go with his ideas.

Ezekiel says that the sons will not bear the iniquity of their fathers. There is nothing there that contradicts Paul. But Ezekiel never suggests that all men are not sinners and will thus bear their own iniquity.

If you are saying that babies go to heaven right after they die, you are falling for the same lie Adam and Eve fell for.

Gen 3:1,

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
​

Why would you believe him and not God? Both Genesis 2:17 and Romans 5:12 are pretty simple declarations that we die and other verses say we will stay dead until Jesus returns.

 

[rrobs]

If you believe on Jesus you should be able to do the works he did. Can you? Can anyone? Or was Jesus wrong?

Jesus did not do miracles in his home town. Why?

Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.​

Matt 17:19-20,

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.​

No believing = No miracles.
Believing = Miracles.

How do we get faith?

Rom 10:17,

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

The more we know of the word of God, the more our faith will grow. The more faith we have in God, the we will see the miracles.

Assuming God's word is true, the reason we don't see miracles is simple because by and large the orthodox church does not believe the scriptures.

So how can people hear the word, increase in faith and see the miracles Jesus did in our own time?

Rom 10:14-15,

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!​

Looks like somebody needs to get out there and hold forth the greatness of God's word to the unbelieving public. Maybe something you could do! If you do that, you'll see the power of God in operation in this world.

 

[e.r.m.]

Gal 2:11,

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
​

Why did Paul have to correct Peter? According to you, Peter would have known everything about the new administration in one fell swoop.

Circumcision was corrected as they learned that it wouldn't apply to new believers. Baptism in water in Jesus's name was never corrected or changed.
Circumcision was an issue. Baptism in water in Jesus's name wasn't.

The Bible is about real people, who do real things. In no real world would the impact of such a great event as the day of Pentecost be instantly understood. You are taking a real account of real people and making it into a fairy tale. Your view does not accord with reality or the scriptures.

If I am weaving a fairy tale and am not in accord with reality or the scriptures, then simply show me the direct scripture where baptism in water in Jesus's name is invalidated or said to be obselete. A hypothesis doesn't suffice. And Matthew 3:11 doesn't address baptism in water in Jesus's name.

 

[Nova2216]

None of that specifically says the church and the kingdom are the same.And consider verses like - 2 Samuel 22:3 and 22:47 Dueteronomy 32:15 Isaiah 30:29 Psalm 31:1-3 Psalm 28:1 Psalm 92:15 and many more They all refer to Jesus or the Lord or God as being "the Rock". No verse specifically says Peter is the Rock. Jesus simply says that he is speaking to Peter and says he will build his church on this rock. He does not tell Peter "I am building my church on you" Or, "Peter, you are the rock I am building my church on". In view of all the other verses that call Jesus the Rock it seems there
is only a small chance Jesus is calling Peter the rock.You say it does because you want to believe is does or you have been taught that it does. The majority of evidence says otherwise.

If I am remembering correctly you said the kingdom was not to be established until the Lord returns the 2nd time.

Does it make any difference to you that the scriptures say the kingdom was established in the first century during the lives of the apostles?

That is quite a difference in time (1000s of yrs).

The word of God sometimes teaches by implication.

Do you agree with this?

 

[Nova2216]

Jesus did not do miracles in his home town. Why?

Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.​

Matt 17:19-20,

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.​

No believing = No miracles.
Believing = Miracles.

How do we get faith?

Rom 10:17,

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

The more we know of the word of God, the more our faith will grow. The more faith we have in God, the we will see the miracles.

Assuming God's word is true, the reason we don't see miracles is simple because by and large the orthodox church does not believe the scriptures.

So how can people hear the word, increase in faith and see the miracles Jesus did in our own time?

Rom 10:14-15,

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!​

Looks like somebody needs to get out there and hold forth the greatness of God's word to the unbelieving public. Maybe something you could do! If you do that, you'll see the power of God in operation in this world.

Jesus did not do miracles in his home town. Why?

Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.​

Matt 17:19-20,

19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.​

No believing = No miracles.
Believing = Miracles.

How do we get faith?

Rom 10:17,

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
​

The more we know of the word of God, the more our faith will grow. The more faith we have in God, the we will see the miracles.

Assuming God's word is true, the reason we don't see miracles is simple because by and large the orthodox church does not believe the scriptures.

So how can people hear the word, increase in faith and see the miracles Jesus did in our own time?

Rom 10:14-15,

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!​

Looks like somebody needs to get out there and hold forth the greatness of God's word to the unbelieving public. Maybe something you could do! If you do that, you'll see the power of God in operation in this world.

Rob - Jesus did not do miracles in his home town.


Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.



Nova - Maybe you need to slow down and read it once again b/c the text does not say what you claim it says.


The text says -

he did not many mighty works...

It does not say - He did not ANY mighty works


Did you not see the M in MANY?

This is a common error by those reading those man made comments inside the bibles.

 

[Nova2216]

Was Mary Sinless?

by Moisés Pinedo

(excerpt)

Romans 5:12 has been used extensively to support the Catholic doctrine of “original sin.” In this passage, Paul wrote: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.” At first glance, this text may seem to support the idea of original sin; however, a proper study of this verse will show that this is not the case.

First, Paul said that “through one man sin entered the world.” Paul did not say that sin entered into every person at birth. Rather, sin became a part of the world in general. Second, Paul said that death entered through sin. This refers exclusively to the death that Adam and Eve experienced in the beginning. Third, Paul noted that “death spread to all men, because all sinned.” The text does not say that death spread to all men because Adam sinned but because all sinned. It is clear that humanity is the recipient of the consequence of Adam’s sin (i.e., death), but is not the recipient of the guilt of Adam’s sin. Each accountable person dies for his or her own sin (Romans 3:23).

Ezekiel 18:20 declares: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself” (cf. Deuteronomy 24:16; Jeremiah 31:30). Since the Bible emphatically affirms that the son does not bear the guilt (or iniquity) of the father, this means that Cain, Abel, and Seth did not carry the sin of their father, Adam. How, then, can we possibly carry Adam’s sin? The truth is that children are born without sin. This is why Jesus said that in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven, one should become like a child (Matthew 18:3). But if children come into this world “dragging” the sin of the first man and, therefore, are contaminated, what sense would it make for Jesus to encourage us to be like them?

Read more here.

Was Mary Sinless?

Read more here.

Was Mary Sinless?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

If I am remembering correctly you said the kingdom was not to be established until the Lord returns the 2nd time.

Does it make any difference to you that the scriptures say the kingdom was established in the first century during the lives of the apostles?

That is quite a difference in time (1000s of yrs).

The word of God sometimes teaches by implication.

Do you agree with this?

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. My kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom and the church are the same then it IS in this world and millions of flesh and blood people are in it every week. Maybe "establish" has another meaning. I could establish a business but not actually do any business for some time. Or I could establish a bank account and not put any money in it right away. Can you give me the scripture again that says the kingdom was established at the time of Jesus.

 

[Nova2216]

Are Children Born With Sin?

by Moisés Pinedo

(excerpt)

But, what about Romans 5:12, where the apostle Paul wrote that “through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”? Does this verse teach that we bear Adam’s sin? No. As we observed in another article (cf. Pinedo, 2009), this verse teaches that death—the consequence of sin—spread to all men, not because Adam sinned, but “because all sinned” (5:12; cf. Romans 3:23). Of course, this “all” cannot refer only to Adam. Nothing in the Bible teaches, indicates, or implies that children are born with sin.

Paul indicated that where there is no law, there is no sin (Romans 3:20; cf. John 15:22). And the apostle John declared that “sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). If infants cannot know the Law of God or understand it, they cannot commit lawlessness.


Read more here.

Are Children Born With Sin?

 

[Nova2216]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. My kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom and the church are the same then it IS in this world and millions of flesh and blood people are in it every week. Maybe "establish" has another meaning. I could establish a business but not actually do any business for some time. Or I could establish a bank account and not put any money in it right away. Can you give me the scripture again that says the kingdom was established at the time of Jesus.

Two kingdoms exist in the world today.

1. Christ kingdom which is Spiritual.

2. Then there is the world of the physical.

Though Christians live in the world (physically) they are not of the world.

Why?

B/c they are spiritually minded.

Christians make decisions with a spiritual mindset and not with a worldly mindset.

(Mark 9:1)

That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.


If the scripture above does not convince you nothing will.

(Col.1:13)


13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Nova2216]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. My kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom and the church are the same then it IS in this world and millions of flesh and blood people are in it every week. Maybe "establish" has another meaning. I could establish a business but not actually do any business for some time. Or I could establish a bank account and not put any money in it right away. Can you give me the scripture again that says the kingdom was established at the time of Jesus.

What does this verse mean?

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

What does this verse mean?

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I h

What does this verse mean?

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I am trying to follow this and must take one small step at a time. I think you said earlier that Mathew 16:18-19 shows that the church and the kingdom are the same. Let's assume that Jesus is saying He is building the church on Peter and giving Peter the keys to the kingdom. Does that prove that they are the same? I said in an earlier post that if I was a businessman I could pick a worker and build a new business with him. I could also give him the keys to my car. That would not prove the the business and the car were the same thing. Just because the church and the kingdom are mentioned in the same verse does not seem to prove they are the same. Maybe you are right but the evidence is weak for me. Is there any verse that really says the church is the kingdom? That would be more proof for me. Thanks for your patience.

 

[Nova2216]

I h

I am trying to follow this and must take one small step at a time. I think you said earlier that Mathew 16:18-19 shows that the church and the kingdom are the same. Let's assume that Jesus is saying He is building the church on Peter and giving Peter the keys to the kingdom. Does that prove that they are the same? I said in an earlier post that if I was a businessman I could pick a worker and build a new business with him. I could also give him the keys to my car. That would not prove the the business and the car were the same thing. Just because the church and the kingdom are mentioned in the same verse does not seem to prove they are the same. Maybe you are right but the evidence is weak for me. Is there any verse that really says the church is the kingdom? That would be more proof for me. Thanks for your patience.

Please keep in mind the kingdom IS SPIRITUAL and not literal. If you have been taught the kingdom is literal then it may be difficult to accept what the scriptures say.


You are using literal examples to understand Spiritual.



Please notice this information will not allow for the kingdom to be 2000 yrs later.

In (Mt 16:18,19) the words Kingdom and church are used interchangeably.

there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (Mark 9:1)


Kingdom is within you (Luke 17:21)

Kingdom is at hand (Mt.3:2)

wait in Jerusalem for the power to come upon the apostles (Lk 24:47-49)

Not many days hence (Acts 1:5,8)

Kingdom ... come with POWER (Luke 24:47-49)

Kingdom has a KING (Luke 23:38)

Kingdom has a LAW (Heb.8:6-13) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16)

We see that POWER come upon the apostles in (Acts 2:1-4)

. Notice those who obeyed the Law of the kingdom (repent + baptism) were added to the CHURCH.(Acts2:38,47)


All this information together helps to prove the kingdom was the church and it was close to those in the first century (at hand).


Thanks for asking.

 

[rrobs]

Rob - Jesus did not do miracles in his home town.

Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


Nova - Maybe you need to slow down and read it once again b/c the text does not say what you claim it says.

The text says -

he did not many mighty works...

It does not say - He did not ANY mighty works

Did you not see the M in MANY?

This is a common error by those reading those man made comments inside the bibles.

You got me good that time. Good for you! You would make an excellent editor.

So how does that change the spirit of what I was telling lostandwanderingsoul? Does that prove I am wrong in saying one must believe to see the power of God in operation?

 

[rrobs]

Rob - Jesus did not do miracles in his home town.

Matt 13:58,

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Seriously, thanks for the reminder. Given that every word God uses is refined 7 times, it's not good to change "many" into "none." I must redouble my efforts as rightly dividing God's word.

God bless.

 

[rrobs]

Circumcision was corrected as they learned that it wouldn't apply to new believers. Baptism in water in Jesus's name was never corrected or changed.
Circumcision was an issue. Baptism in water in Jesus's name wasn't.

If I am weaving a fairy tale and am not in accord with reality or the scriptures, then simply show me the direct scripture where baptism in water in Jesus's name is invalidated or said to be obselete. A hypothesis doesn't suffice. And Matthew 3:11 doesn't address baptism in water in Jesus's name.

I used the following verses as proof texts that holy spirit replaced water:

1. Matt 3:11
2. John 1:33
3. Acts 1:5
4. Heb 2:7

Which verses do you use to show that we no longer need to observe the Passover? I couldn't find any.

 

[Nova2216]

Seriously, thanks for the reminder. Given that every word God uses is refined 7 times, it's not good to change "many" into "none." I must redouble my efforts as rightly dividing God's word.

God bless.

I like your attitude here.

Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

You got me good that time. Good for you! You would make an excellent editor.

So how does that change the spirit of what I was telling lostandwanderingsoul? Does that prove I am wrong in saying one must believe to see the power of God in operation?

Well, it proves even with unbelief Jesus done miracles.

Your point was they had to have faith before a miracle would be done.

 

[Nova2216]

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. My kingdom is not of this world. If the kingdom and the church are the same then it IS in this world and millions of flesh and blood people are in it every week. Maybe "establish" has another meaning. I could establish a business but not actually do any business for some time. Or I could establish a bank account and not put any money in it right away. Can you give me the scripture again that says the kingdom was established at the time of Jesus.

(1Cor.15:50) is speaking of Heaven and not literal earth.



42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 ¶ Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.
(KJV)

 

[Nova2216]

Is the Kingdom Yet to be Established?

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(excerpt)


Second, the words “kingdom,” “Israel,” and “church” all refer to the same group of people—i.e., the saved, Christians, the church of Christ, or spiritual Israel. Jesus predicted that He would build His “church” and give to Peter the keys of the “kingdom” (Matthew 16:18-19). Jesus did not build one institution and then give Peter the keys to a different institution. Paul told the Galatian Christians: “Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. …and if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:7,29; cf. 6:16). He told Christians in Rome: “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart” (Romans 2:28-29). Spiritual Israel is the church of Christ—that is, the kingdom.

Third, Jesus is reigning now in heaven, and has been since His ascension around A.D. 30. Peter explained that Jesus “has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him” (1 Peter 3:22).


Read more here.

Is the Kingdom Yet to be Established?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Please keep in mind the kingdom IS SPIRITUAL and not literal. If you have been taught the kingdom is literal then it may be difficult to accept what the scriptures say.


You are using literal examples to understand Spiritual.



Please notice this information will not allow for the kingdom to be 2000 yrs later.

In (Mt 16:18,19) the words Kingdom and church are used interchangeably.

there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (Mark 9:1)


Kingdom is within you (Luke 17:21)

Kingdom is at hand (Mt.3:2)

wait in Jerusalem for the power to come upon the apostles (Lk 24:47-49)

Not many days hence (Acts 1:5,8)

Kingdom ... come with POWER (Luke 24:47-49)

Kingdom has a KING (Luke 23:38)

Kingdom has a LAW (Heb.8:6-13) (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16)

We see that POWER come upon the apostles in (Acts 2:1-4)

. Notice those who obeyed the Law of the kingdom (repent + baptism) were added to the CHURCH.(Acts2:38,47)


All this information together helps to prove the kingdom was the church and it was close to those in the first century (at hand).


Thanks for asking.

So sorry. I still have to slow it down. One step at a time. You said in post 640 the kingdom = the church (Mt 16:18-19) I am not concerned with if it is spiritual or physical. Mathew 16:18-19 simply says that Jesus established the church and gave Peter the keys to the kingdom. I do not see where this proves they are the same. You also said in the same post that people were placed into the kingdom (church). Acts does say many were baptized and added to the church. There is no mention of the kingdom. I cannot see how either of these two references prove that the kingdom is the church. I am a person who looks at each word and tries to understand its meaning. I see church mentioned in Acts 2 but not kingdom. That makes it hard for me to say they are the same. Hope you can help.