Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Nova2216]

You are mixing up different people and different times, a common mistake. You have absolutely no concept of the mystery that God had kept secret until he revealed it to Paul. Learn about that and you'll see your error.

Why don't you take the scriptures and show me my error?

(Gal.6:1,2) -
Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

 

[rrobs]

Why don't you take the scriptures and show me my error?

(Gal.6:1,2) -
Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1Cor 2:6-7,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
​

Paul said this after telling the Corinthians that they were not able to get beyond Jesus Christ and him crucified (v. 2). Read chapter 3:1-3 and you'll see that the reason Paul could not go beyond that was that they were carnal. He said that because they were divided, some saying the were of Paul, others saying they were of Apollos. Today we have some saying they are of Martin Luther, others saying they are of Joseph Smith, others saying they are of John Calvin, etc. etc. There are 10,000+ denominations despite the fact that God tells us to be of the same mind and to say the same things. (As a side note, it seems odd that anyone would say the perfection of 1 Cor 13:10 has arrived, given the serious division and therefore carnality of the church. But I digress.)

From verse 7 we learn that Paul speaks about a mystery among the more mature Christians, the ones that can get beyond Jesus Christ and him crucified, that can get past milk and into the meat.

One defining, and relevant to our discussion, characteristic of this mystery is that nobody knew about it until it was revealed to Paul.

Col 1:25-26,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

In light of verse 25, it is hard to comprehend how many Christians deny dispensations. That is one big reason Paul said they couldn't at go beyond Jesus' crucifixion and get into the meat. Still holds true today. Nonetheless, God has dealt with different peoples (Jew, Gentile) in different ways at different times.

Verse 26 says the mystery was hid from ages and generations, but "now" it is made known. When is "now?" "Now" is when Paul wrote it. Before Paul wrote about the mystery it was not known by anybody.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
​

Romans agrees with Colossians regarding the fact that the mystery was only lately revealed to Paul and that nobody knew about it before that time. That would include Zechariah. Zechariah did not know about this mystery, so he could not have said anything about it. Whatever Zechariah wrote about, it was not Christianity. Like I said, Zechariah wrote about God's final fulfillment of His promises of an everlasting kingdom He made to the Jews. Just look at verse one; whose fathers was he talking about? The Jews! Not the Gentiles, and most definitely not the Church of the Body which didn't even exist at that time (Eph 1:22-23).

Eph 3:3-4,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

All you have to do is read what Paul wrote before in Ephesians, and you'll understand his knowledge of the mystery. Of course, you may not get it in 10 minutes, but if you persevere in your study, I'm confident God will reveal it to you. The mystery has everything to do with the Church of the Body of Christ, i.e. us, born again believers. That is what nobody saw coming because it was a mystery hidden in God and not made know until it was given to Paul.

Suffice it to say, Christianity is the crux of the mystery. Nobody knew about this thing called Christianity.

As far as the Jews knew, Jesus would come twice, once as a lamb led to slaughter and again as the King of Kings. What came between those times is the mystery and it is the time in which we are now living, the age of grace. Zechariah didn't know about this time and therefore he could hardly have written about it.

 

[rrobs]

When the apostles (including Paul) did grasp the whole truth, why didn't they go back and correct what they had specifically said earlier about baptism in water in Jesus's name? e.g. - Acts 2:38-39, 10:47-48, and what Ananias had said Acts 22:16?
Could it be no correction was made because they got that right the first time?

Both John and Jesus spoke of two baptisms, John's water and Jesus' holy spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 is the correction you want to see. It speaks of one baptism. It is left for the reader to decide if that one baptism is John's water or Jesus' holy spirit. The choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

rrobs and I were coming from somewhere else with this conversation.
I'll address yours as stated.
Acts 2:38 did not command a sinless Jesus to get baptized, it commanded other people (with sin) to get baptized. It says ee must repent and be baptized in Jesus's name for the forgiveness of sins and we will receive the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was giving us an example.
Jesus was howing what we must do.

There is no scripture that says Jesus's baptism in water was related to anyone else's baptism in water after his death in any way.
No one ever says to get baptized in water because Jesus got baptized in water. No one in the Bible ever says to follow Jesus's example in getting baptized in water. It was not a teaching. It's become a tradition teaching since them, but there's no basis in the Bible connecting his baptism in water with what was commanded from Matthew 28:19 onward.

So Acts 2:38 telling us to repent and be baptized means just the opposite? We do not need to repent and be baptized. This is very strange logic and the way many twist scripture to say it means what they want it to mean.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

So, what about this. Jesus was born with a physical body. He was baptized and the Spirit came upon him.He died and was buried. After three days he rose from the tomb. This was his spiritual second birth. Humans can be baptized and recieve the Spirit just like Jesus. They later die. JESUS SAID HE IS COMING BACK TO RAISE THE DEAD TO NEW LIFE. THAT WILL BE THEIR SECOND BIRTH OR SPIRITUAL BIRTH. NO ON IS OR WILL BE "BORN AGAIN" UNTIL jESUS RETURNS AND GIVES THEM A NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE. Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom. But he did not say when that second birth would occur. The kingdom will not exist until Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth. Flesh and blood cannot see the kingdom but those who have the second spiritual birth will not be flesh and blood and they are the ones who will be in the kingdom with Jesus as their king. Now show where anything in the Bible disagrees with that.

 

[e.r.m.]

So Acts 2:38 telling us to repent and be baptized means just the opposite? We do not need to repent and be baptized. This is very strange logic and the way many twist scripture to say it means what they want it to mean.

It has those words written in the verse. So it would be twisting to say it means something other than what's written. We do need to repent and be baptized. I don't know how you think I'm saying otherwise.
My point is there's no teaching in the Bible for us to get baptized in water "because" Jesus got baptized in water.

 

[rrobs]

* Before I begin may I ask you a couple of questions.

1. How much do you use the man made references and comments within your bible?

They are an addition to the original and much of the time they are wrong.

Seldom do I bother reading them. As you said, they are not the words of God that have been purified 7 times. While they may be helpful at times, they are certainly not our standard of truth.

2. What kind of bible are you using?

KJV, with the understanding that it has been transcribed from other transcriptions and is therefore not really the original God breathed word. Sometimes we have to use the original language to get closer to the original document.

Notice (Zech 13:1,2) - 1. ¶ In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

(vs) 1. a FOUNTAIN for sin and uncleanness (sounds like the shedding of blood). This is a reference to Christ dying upon the cross (Mt.26:28) (Luke 23;38).

The book of (Acts) begins where the book of Luke ends.

This is where the church (the kingdom) is established according to (Jer.31:31-34) (Isa.2:1-5) (Joel 2:28) (Acts 2:16,17).

The Jews entered the Kingdom (The Church) in (Acts 2:38,47).

Those Jews who repented and were baptized for the remission of sins were added to the kingdom (church) (Acts 2:38,47).

Not when the Lord returns the 2nd time but during the first century..

Do you disagree with this conclusion?

No way do I agree with that. Since when have we cut off all idols and they are no longer remembered? You are mixing up the Kingdom God promised Israel with the Church. The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:26,

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [in Paul's day] is made manifest to his saints:
​

Hidden means Zechariah didn't know about it, so he could not have said anything about it.

Besides, Zech 13:1 shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is talking about Israel, not the Gentiles, and certainly not the Church of the Body of Christ which didn't even exist at that time. Christians need to stop reading other people's mail and acting as though it were addressed to themselves. It's got somebody else's address on it!

If you somehow read a letter written to me from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling me I need to send $1,200 for my registration renewal, would you send them your money? Don't think you would. You can learn that I owe $1,200, but you would not be responsible to pay it just because you read the letter. Same with Zechariah. It was not written to you. Your letters are in the books of Romans through Thessalonians. Those are the main books that define the doctrine of our day and time. It is radically different than that of the Jews in the days of Zechariah.

You claim Zechariah is referring to the 2nd coming of Christ.

No Sir, it is not.
That maybe what the comments in your bible says and your teachers say but that is incorrect.

Zechariah did not know about Christianity. Learn about the mystery that was kept hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul (Rom 16:25-26, et. al.), and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.

When it comes to (1Cor.13:8-10) the word "PERFECT" is neutered gendered. Whatever the word "PERFECT" refers to it is neither male or female. This means it would be impossible for the word "PERFECT" to refer to Jesus Christ. Notice the text also refers to that which is "PERFECT" as "THAT". Surely the Holy Spirit would not ever refer to our Lord as a "THAT".

The COMPLETED revelation of Christ is referred to as "PERFECT" in (Jas.1:25) (2Tim.3:16,17).

Thats why it is called the UNITY of the faith in (Eph.4:11-13).

Do you agree?

How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations? Sorry, but I don't think we will have that unity until we all know as we are known (1 Cor 13:12).

Like yourself, I don't believe that "perfect" refers to just Jesus. It is more encompassing and refers to a new revelation, to the new heavens and new earth which really will be "perfect." As I said above, 10,000+ denominations is hardly a sign we have arrived at perfection.

When all the evidence is considered, it becomes clear that Zechariah was not talking about our present day of grace, but of the time when God will restore the kingdom He promised to Israel.

What do you make of this:

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

What is it about the mystery that, had the devil known about it, he would not have killed Jesus? Hint:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

When Jesus was here the devil had one Jesus to deal with. But now, wherever there is a born again believer, there is Jesus. Now he has to deal with tens of millions of Christs! Of course if he can keep the church ignorant of the mystery, he can continue having his way. Looks like he did a pretty good job of it. Most people I talk to about the mystery aren't very receptive. Those that do listen suddenly see the scriptures open to them in a way that is simply not possible without having an intimate knowledge of the mystery. It's "what's happening" in this day and age of grace, but sadly we are stuck at Jesus and him crucified.

1Cor 2:2, 6-8,

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
​

Continuing in the same vein, Paul then said,

1Cor 3:1-4,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
​

A modern day version of verse 4: "I am of Martin Luther, I am of Joseph Smith, I am of John Calvin, I am of Pope John....." That is precisely why the churches by and large can't get past Jesus Christ and him crucified. I don't think I've ever heard a sermon on the mystery taught on Sunday morning. Have you? The reason is simple, the church is divided and therefore carnal.

What do you see behind virtually every altar in every church today? Jesus, and him crucified! It's a terrible witness to bring others to the fullness of what God accomplished through his dear son, Jesus Christ. It's milk. They just leave him hanging there while apparently neglecting what happened after God raised him from the dead. Corinthians is as true today as it was when Paul was first inspired to write it.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

It has those words written in the verse. So it would be twisting to say it means something other than what's written. We do need to repent and be baptized. I don't know how you think I'm saying otherwise.
My point is there's no teaching in the Bible for us to get baptized in water "because" Jesus got baptized in water.

So Jesus was not setting an example? And when he said repent and be baptized he did not mean in water? It still seems like twisting words.

 

[e.r.m.]

So, what about this. Jesus was born with a physical body. He was baptized and the Spirit came upon him.He died and was buried. After three days he rose from the tomb. This was his spiritual second birth. Humans can be baptized and recieve the Spirit just like Jesus. They later die. JESUS SAID HE IS COMING BACK TO RAISE THE DEAD TO NEW LIFE. THAT WILL BE THEIR SECOND BIRTH OR SPIRITUAL BIRTH. NO ON IS OR WILL BE "BORN AGAIN" UNTIL jESUS RETURNS AND GIVES THEM A NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE. Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom. But he did not say when that second birth would occur. The kingdom will not exist until Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth. Flesh and blood cannot see the kingdom but those who have the second spiritual birth will not be flesh and blood and they are the ones who will be in the kingdom with Jesus as their king. Now show where anything in the Bible disagrees with that.

Can't right now. Later, hopefully.

 

[e.r.m.]

So Jesus was not setting an example? And when he said repent and be baptized he did not mean in water? It still seems like twisting words.

It was Peter who said repent and be baptized (in water), but he did get it from Jesus as a command for us only. Jesus didn't have to repent.

In order for there to be twisting, there has to be something to twist. There is nothing written in scripture saying that Jesus's baptism was a pattern to follow. There's nothing to twist.

 

[e.r.m.]

So, what about this. Jesus was born with a physical body. He was baptized and the Spirit came upon him. He died and was buried. After three days he rose from the tomb. This was his spiritual second birth.

Where is it "stated" on scripture that this was his spiritual second birth?

Humans can be baptized and recieve the Spirit just like Jesus.

Says who? Who else (in scripture) was ever baptized and the Holy Spirit descended on him or her, like a dove?

They later die. JESUS SAID HE IS COMING BACK TO RAISE THE DEAD TO NEW LIFE. THAT WILL BE THEIR SECOND BIRTH OR SPIRITUAL BIRTH. NO ON IS OR WILL BE "BORN AGAIN" UNTIL jESUS RETURNS AND GIVES THEM A NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE. Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom. But he did not say when that second birth would occur.

If I understand correctly, who (in scripture) says our resurrection from physical death is our spiritual birth or born again?

The kingdom will not exist until Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth. Flesh and blood cannot see the kingdom but those who have the second spiritual birth will not be flesh and blood and they are the ones who will be in the kingdom with Jesus as their king. Now show where anything in the Bible disagrees with that.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Colossians 1:13-14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Very simply put. The Bible makes no direct connection in writing between Jesus's baptism in water and the baptism in water commanded as of Matthew 28:19 onward.

 

[Nova2216]

1Cor 2:6-7,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
​

Paul said this after telling the Corinthians that they were not able to get beyond Jesus Christ and him crucified (v. 2). Read chapter 3:1-3 and you'll see that the reason Paul could not go beyond that was that they were carnal. He said that because they were divided, some saying the were of Paul, others saying they were of Apollos. Today we have some saying they are of Martin Luther, others saying they are of Joseph Smith, others saying they are of John Calvin, etc. etc. There are 10,000+ denominations despite the fact that God tells us to be of the same mind and to say the same things. (As a side note, it seems odd that anyone would say the perfection of 1 Cor 13:10 has arrived, given the serious division and therefore carnality of the church. But I digress.)

From verse 7 we learn that Paul speaks about a mystery among the more mature Christians, the ones that can get beyond Jesus Christ and him crucified, that can get past milk and into the meat.

One defining, and relevant to our discussion, characteristic of this mystery is that nobody knew about it until it was revealed to Paul.

Col 1:25-26,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

In light of verse 25, it is hard to comprehend how many Christians deny dispensations. That is one big reason Paul said they couldn't at go beyond Jesus' crucifixion and get into the meat. Still holds true today. Nonetheless, God has dealt with different peoples (Jew, Gentile) in different ways at different times.

Verse 26 says the mystery was hid from ages and generations, but "now" it is made known. When is "now?" "Now" is when Paul wrote it. Before Paul wrote about the mystery it was not known by anybody.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
​

Romans agrees with Colossians regarding the fact that the mystery was only lately revealed to Paul and that nobody knew about it before that time. That would include Zechariah. Zechariah did not know about this mystery, so he could not have said anything about it. Whatever Zechariah wrote about, it was not Christianity. Like I said, Zechariah wrote about God's final fulfillment of His promises of an everlasting kingdom He made to the Jews. Just look at verse one; whose fathers was he talking about? The Jews! Not the Gentiles, and most definitely not the Church of the Body which didn't even exist at that time (Eph 1:22-23).

Eph 3:3-4,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

All you have to do is read what Paul wrote before in Ephesians, and you'll understand his knowledge of the mystery. Of course, you may not get it in 10 minutes, but if you persevere in your study, I'm confident God will reveal it to you. The mystery has everything to do with the Church of the Body of Christ, i.e. us, born again believers. That is what nobody saw coming because it was a mystery hidden in God and not made know until it was given to Paul.

Suffice it to say, Christianity is the crux of the mystery. Nobody knew about this thing called Christianity.

As far as the Jews knew, Jesus would come twice, once as a lamb led to slaughter and again as the King of Kings. What came between those times is the mystery and it is the time in which we are now living, the age of grace. Zechariah didn't know about this time and therefore he could hardly have written about it.

While I appreciate the scriptures you used in your explanation the scriptures do not harmonize with what you described.

Take away all your words and look at the verses you posted above and notice what you see.

The information you get from the scriptures are nothing akin to your explanation.


The MYSTERY is that the GENTILES were to enter the church along with the JEWS. That would be "ALL FLESH" which we read about in (Joel 2:28) and (Acts 2:16,17).

Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

(Acts 2:16,17) points to (Acts 2:1-4) and (Acts 10:44).

The point is that the Holy Spirit fell on both Jews and Gentiles.

"ALL FLESH" - (Joel 2:28) -

28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh

It is so very important to note that this is the only two recorded times this happened (in the NT).

Both recorded accounts were groups of people (not individuals).



Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. {blindness: or, hardness}

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: {in: or, among}

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[e.r.m.]

While I appreciate the scriptures you used in your explanation the scriptures do not harmonize with what you described.

Take away all your words and look at the verses you posted above and notice what you see.

The information you get from the scriptures are nothing akin to your explanation.


The MYSTERY is that the GENTILES were to enter the church along with the JEWS. That would be "ALL FLESH" which we read about in (Joel 2:28) and (Acts 2:16,17).

Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

(Acts 2:16,17) points to (Acts 2:1-4) and (Acts 10:44).

The point is that the Holy Spirit fell on both Jews and Gentiles.

"ALL FLESH" - (Joel 2:28) -

28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh



Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. {blindness: or, hardness}

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: {in: or, among}

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

A majority of the by grace alone, through faith alone teachings on salvation come from its own words, not the text of scripture.

 

[Nova2216]

Both John and Jesus spoke of two baptisms, John's water and Jesus' holy spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 is the correction you want to see. It speaks of one baptism. It is left for the reader to decide if that one baptism is John's water or Jesus' holy spirit. The choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

Johns water baptism is NOT the NT water baptism.

Are you aware of this?

 

[Nova2216]

So, what about this. Jesus was born with a physical body. He was baptized and the Spirit came upon him.He died and was buried. After three days he rose from the tomb. This was his spiritual second birth. Humans can be baptized and recieve the Spirit just like Jesus. They later die. JESUS SAID HE IS COMING BACK TO RAISE THE DEAD TO NEW LIFE. THAT WILL BE THEIR SECOND BIRTH OR SPIRITUAL BIRTH. NO ON IS OR WILL BE "BORN AGAIN" UNTIL jESUS RETURNS AND GIVES THEM A NEW SPIRITUAL LIFE. Jesus said you must be born again to see the kingdom. But he did not say when that second birth would occur. The kingdom will not exist until Jesus returns and sets up his kingdom on earth. Flesh and blood cannot see the kingdom but those who have the second spiritual birth will not be flesh and blood and they are the ones who will be in the kingdom with Jesus as their king. Now show where anything in the Bible disagrees with that.

Are you aware that some people were translated into the kingdom during the first century?

(Col.1:13) -Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom

The kingdom (the church) was established in (Acts 2)

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Are you aware that some people were translated into the kingdom during the first century?

(Col.1:13) -Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom

The kingdom (the church) was established in (Acts 2)

Again, I must ask two things because you seem to have a different meaning for some words than I do. I do not know what "translated" means as to a person. One can translate a word to another language but do you translate a person? Can anyone say with certainty what it means? And I see in Acts 2 that Jesus added to the church but I do not see anything that says the church and the kingdom are the same. I think you are stretching words to make them match your beliefs. That is not proof.

 

[Nova2216]

Seldom do I bother reading them. As you said, they are not the words of God that have been purified 7 times. While they may be helpful at times, they are certainly not our standard of truth.


KJV, with the understanding that it has been transcribed from other transcriptions and is therefore not really the original God breathed word. Sometimes we have to use the original language to get closer to the original document.


No way do I agree with that. Since when have we cut off all idols and they are no longer remembered? You are mixing up the Kingdom God promised Israel with the Church. The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:26,

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [in Paul's day] is made manifest to his saints:
​

Hidden means Zechariah didn't know about it, so he could not have said anything about it.

Besides, Zech 13:1 shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is talking about Israel, not the Gentiles, and certainly not the Church of the Body of Christ which didn't even exist at that time. Christians need to stop reading other people's mail and acting as though it were addressed to themselves. It's got somebody else's address on it!

If you somehow read a letter written to me from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling me I need to send $1,200 for my registration renewal, would you send them your money? Don't think you would. You can learn that I owe $1,200, but you would not be responsible to pay it just because you read the letter. Same with Zechariah. It was not written to you. Your letters are in the books of Romans through Thessalonians. Those are the main books that define the doctrine of our day and time. It is radically different than that of the Jews in the days of Zechariah.


Zechariah did not know about Christianity. Learn about the mystery that was kept hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul (Rom 16:25-26, et. al.), and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.


How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations? Sorry, but I don't think we will have that unity until we all know as we are known (1 Cor 13:12).

Like yourself, I don't believe that "perfect" refers to just Jesus. It is more encompassing and refers to a new revelation, to the new heavens and new earth which really will be "perfect." As I said above, 10,000+ denominations is hardly a sign we have arrived at perfection.

When all the evidence is considered, it becomes clear that Zechariah was not talking about our present day of grace, but of the time when God will restore the kingdom He promised to Israel.

What do you make of this:

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

What is it about the mystery that, had the devil known about it, he would not have killed Jesus? Hint:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

When Jesus was here the devil had one Jesus to deal with. But now, wherever there is a born again believer, there is Jesus. Now he has to deal with tens of millions of Christs! Of course if he can keep the church ignorant of the mystery, he can continue having his way. Looks like he did a pretty good job of it. Most people I talk to about the mystery aren't very receptive. Those that do listen suddenly see the scriptures open to them in a way that is simply not possible without having an intimate knowledge of the mystery. It's "what's happening" in this day and age of grace, but sadly we are stuck at Jesus and him crucified.

1Cor 2:2, 6-8,

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
​

Continuing in the same vein, Paul then said,

1Cor 3:1-4,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
​

A modern day version of verse 4: "I am of Martin Luther, I am of Joseph Smith, I am of John Calvin, I am of Pope John....." That is precisely why the churches by and large can't get past Jesus Christ and him crucified. I don't think I've ever heard a sermon on the mystery taught on Sunday morning. Have you? The reason is simple, the church is divided and therefore carnal.

What do you see behind virtually every altar in every church today? Jesus, and him crucified! It's a terrible witness to bring others to the fullness of what God accomplished through his dear son, Jesus Christ. It's milk. They just leave him hanging there while apparently neglecting what happened after God raised him from the dead. Corinthians is as true today as it was when Paul was first inspired to write it.

Seldom do I bother reading them. As you said, they are not the words of God that have been purified 7 times. While they may be helpful at times, they are certainly not our standard of truth.


KJV, with the understanding that it has been transcribed from other transcriptions and is therefore not really the original God breathed word. Sometimes we have to use the original language to get closer to the original document.


No way do I agree with that. Since when have we cut off all idols and they are no longer remembered? You are mixing up the Kingdom God promised Israel with the Church. The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Col 1:26,

[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now [in Paul's day] is made manifest to his saints:
​

Hidden means Zechariah didn't know about it, so he could not have said anything about it.

Besides, Zech 13:1 shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is talking about Israel, not the Gentiles, and certainly not the Church of the Body of Christ which didn't even exist at that time. Christians need to stop reading other people's mail and acting as though it were addressed to themselves. It's got somebody else's address on it!

If you somehow read a letter written to me from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling me I need to send $1,200 for my registration renewal, would you send them your money? Don't think you would. You can learn that I owe $1,200, but you would not be responsible to pay it just because you read the letter. Same with Zechariah. It was not written to you. Your letters are in the books of Romans through Thessalonians. Those are the main books that define the doctrine of our day and time. It is radically different than that of the Jews in the days of Zechariah.


Zechariah did not know about Christianity. Learn about the mystery that was kept hidden in God until He revealed it to Paul (Rom 16:25-26, et. al.), and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.


How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations? Sorry, but I don't think we will have that unity until we all know as we are known (1 Cor 13:12).

Like yourself, I don't believe that "perfect" refers to just Jesus. It is more encompassing and refers to a new revelation, to the new heavens and new earth which really will be "perfect." As I said above, 10,000+ denominations is hardly a sign we have arrived at perfection.

When all the evidence is considered, it becomes clear that Zechariah was not talking about our present day of grace, but of the time when God will restore the kingdom He promised to Israel.

What do you make of this:

1Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

What is it about the mystery that, had the devil known about it, he would not have killed Jesus? Hint:

Col 1:26-27,

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

When Jesus was here the devil had one Jesus to deal with. But n

*
Rob - The Church was a mystery that God kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul.

Nova - The church (kingdom) was established in (Acts 2) and Paul was not converted till (Acts 9/22/26). The church was in existence long BEFORE Paul became a Christian.

Do you realize this?

How could Paul have kept the Mystery about the church when the church was established long before Paul was a Christian?

That does not make any sense.



Rob - and you will understand that he had to have been talking about the final fulfillment of God's promises to Israel, the events outlined in the book of Revelation.

Nova - Ever read (Joshua 21:43)?

Jos 21:43 ¶ And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.

Jos. 23:14 that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

The Jews inhabited the land promised to them long ago.

They got all the Lord promised them during the OT period.



Rob - How does unity of faith explain 10,000+ denominations?

Nova - The unity of the faith refers to the completed written law of God (NT). It (NT) was finished in the first century when there was only one church. It would be very smart to learn which church that was and be involved with it (Rom.16:16).

The unity of the faith (the NT) OPPOSES all denominational creeds and the very existence of all denominations (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16).

 

[e.r.m.]

Both John and Jesus spoke of two baptisms, John's water and Jesus' holy spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 is the correction you want to see. It speaks of one baptism. It is left for the reader to decide if that one baptism is John's water or Jesus' holy spirit. The choice seems like a no-brainer to me.

Jesus also spoke of another baptism in the name of the F, S, and HS, which He commanded of His followers to perform on others Matthew 28:19, which is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, because that Jesus would do Himself, and so He did in Acts 2:2-4 and in Acts 10:44-46. Peter spoke of this other baptism Acts 2:38-39, as did Luke Acts 8:36-39, and Paul Romans 6:5, Acts 19:2-5. And no one went back later to correct these.

 

[rrobs]

While I appreciate the scriptures you used in your explanation the scriptures do not harmonize with what you described.

Take away all your words and look at the verses you posted above and notice what you see.

The information you get from the scriptures are nothing akin to your explanation.

The MYSTERY is that the GENTILES were to enter the church along with the JEWS. That would be "ALL FLESH" which we read about in (Joel 2:28) and (Acts 2:16,17).

Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel

(Acts 2:16,17) points to (Acts 2:1-4) and (Acts 10:44).

The point is that the Holy Spirit fell on both Jews and Gentiles.

"ALL FLESH" - (Joel 2:28) -

28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh

It is so very important to note that this is the only two recorded times this happened (in the NT).

Both recorded accounts were groups of people (not individuals).

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. {blindness: or, hardness}

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: {in: or, among}

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Apparently you are a notable exception to the Christendom I said by and large has no idea of the mystery. I'm glad for you in that regard.

I trust you also understand that God kept all of that a secret until He revealed it to Paul. While it certainly looks like Joel spoke about this mystery, it can't be the case. If it is, then we have a glaring contradiction in the Bible.

1. Paul, inspired by God, said the mystery was kept secret until God revealed it to him. That would be well after Joel wrote.
   
2. Joel, also inspired by God, talked in some detail about the mystery.

Neither can be ignored because of a bias one way or the other. Somehow they must fit together.

I'll offer my humble opinion (you knew I would ). There are several verses that unequivocally say no one knew the mystery. To think otherwise doesn't seem reasonable. On the other hand, while Joel does appear to be talking about our age, it is not specifically stated. Joel was talking to the Jews. There is no reason that God will not give the same gift of holy spirit to them but not yet. Instead it will happen after the kingdom is restored, i.e. the last few chapters of Revelation. If that is true, then Paul and Joel do not contradict each other. Joel didn't know that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs with Israel. He was under the impression that:

Eph 2:12,

That at that time [Joel's time] ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
​

That was every Jew knew without a doubt. They were God's chosen and the only people with who God walked. The Gentiles were out in the cold.

The sum essence, Christians received the gift of holy spirit and spoke in tongues before it will happen to Israel at the second coming of Jesus. Joel was ignorant of Christianity because, as Paul clearly said, it was hidden in God and that no man knew about it.

Even Peter thought Pentecost was Joel's prophecy, but he didn't know about the mystery and all the ramifications of Christianity. To him, as well as to many, it looked like Joel spoke about Christians, but that would contradict Paul, it had to have been talking about something else.

Any thoughts on Joel and Paul in this regard?

 

[rrobs]

Johns water baptism is NOT the NT water baptism.

Are you aware of this?

That's what I've been saying all along. Maybe my writing style is too obtuse?