Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[Nova2216]

The Church Fathers on Baptism’s Purpose

By Wayne Jackson

A History of the Baptism Apostasy

The divine connection between baptism and the forgiveness of past sins was universally acknowledged by writers of the post-apostolic age. They recognized, and appealed to, the divine authority of the Scriptures for this conviction (Mk.16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21, etc.). George P. Fisher (1827-1909), a professor at Yale Divinity School and prominent church historian, wrote:

Very early, baptism was so far identified with regeneration as to be designated by this term. This rite was considered essential to salvation (1890, 83).

In his outstanding volume, A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David Bercot, an Anglican scholar and an attorney, lists approximately eighty-five references from the writings of the early “church fathers” highlighting their conviction that water baptism is essential to divine pardon from one’s past sins (1998, 50-56). This proposition was universally conceded for centuries following the establishment of Christ’s church.

There are more New Testament texts connecting baptism with forgiveness than there are passages explicitly identifying Jesus Christ as God! How incredible it is, therefore, that this connection should be so flagrantly repudiated by a significant portion of modern “Christendom.”


The Church Fathers on Baptism’s Purpose

By Wayne Jackson

A History of the Baptism Apostasy

 

[Nova2216]

Baptism and the New Birth

Dave Miller Ph.D.

Baptism and the New Birth


In an effort to avoid identifying “water” (vs. 5) as water baptism, many within Christendom in the last half century have proposed a variety of novel interpretations. For example, some have proposed that “water” is a reference to the Holy Spirit. While it certainly is true that John uses the word “water” symbolically to represent the Spirit later in his book (7:38-39), that fact had to be explained by the inspired writer. However, in chapter three, the normal, literal meaning is clearly in view, not only because water baptism throughout the New Testament is consistently associated with the salvation event (e.g., Acts 2:38; 8:12-13,36-38; 9:18; 10:47-48; 16:15,33; 18:8; 19:5; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12; Hebrews 10:22; 1 Peter 3:21), but even in this context, eighteen verses later, the term clearly has a literal meaning: “Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there” (John 3:23). Additionally, if “water” in John 3:5 is an allusion to the Holy Spirit, the result would be nonsensical: “unless one is born of the Spirit and the Spirit.”

Another quibble offered in an effort to avoid the clear import of John 3:5 is that “water” is a symbol for the blood of Jesus. Of course, no rationale exists for making such a connection. Elsewhere John refers explicitly to water and blood, but clearly distinguishes them from each other in their import (1 John 5:6).



Baptism and the New Birth

Dave Miller Ph.D.

Baptism and the New Birth

 

[Nova2216]

Yes..; you didn't answer it.

Two baptisms and much more because not only in Acts 2 but in Acts 10 and 19... so not just the apostles.

As far as "with a certain kind of baptism which no one else could do"...

Matthew 20:21-23 King James Version (KJV)
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



So.... stay consistent with scriptures and don't add to it.

The cup of suffering is what the Lord was referring too.

James was killed by Herod's sword in (Acts 12) and John suffered at a later date.

 

[Kenny]

The cup of suffering is what the Lord was referring too.

James was killed by Herod's sword in (Acts 12) and John suffered at a later date.

and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

So.. please don't add to the word. Another baptism?

so far you have given me three:

1) Holy Spirit baptism
2) Water baptism
3) Baptism of suffering

Is there a baptism into the body of Christ?

 

[Nova2216]

I'm not sure what you intimate by saying, "If that were the case..." Are you saying Romans 10:10 says something different that what I said?

There are more verses in the scriptures than 1 John 2:2 and we must consider that verse in light of all the other verses on the same subject. John described Jesus' part in our salvation, but other places in the scriptures describe each individual's part, i.e. they must confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from among the dead.

One believes towards or unto salvation.

One confesses Christ is the Son of God towards or unto salvation.

One repents towards or unto salvation

One is baptized (in water) INTO CHRIST.





...were baptized into Jesus Christ... (Rom.6:3,4)


27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal.3:27)

 

[Nova2216]

So.. please don't add to the word. Another baptism?

so far you have given me three:

1) Holy Spirit baptism
2) Water baptism
3) Baptism of suffering

Is there a baptism into the body of Christ?

We read about OT sacrifices but that time period is over and no longer valid.

There are six different baptisms mentioned but by the time Ephesians was wrote there was only one baptism commanded by the Lord.

That would be water baptism.

Jews were baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Jesus told Paul to go speak to a preacher to learn the plan of salvation in (Acts 9). We hear that conversation in (Acts 22:16). Paul was baptized in water three days after speaking to Jesus on the road.(Acts 9:9)

We see water baptism is a command of God in (Acts 10:48)

We see the Jailer in (Acts 16:30-34) out in the dark looking for water so he can be baptized. Ever wondered why he did not wait till the next day during daylight hours? Why did he not wait till a week or a month later?

Belief + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:15,16)

 

[e.r.m.]

One believes towards or unto salvation.

One confesses Christ is the Son of God towards or unto salvation.

One repents towards or unto salvation

One is baptized (in water) INTO CHRIST.





...were baptized into Jesus Christ... (Rom.6:3,4)


27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal.3:27)

The words, the grammar, the structure is all there, but it can't mean that so we got to say it means something else...

 

[e.r.m.]

We read about OT sacrifices but that time period is over and no longer valid.

There are six different baptisms mentioned but by the time Ephesians was wrote there was only one baptism commanded by the Lord.

That would be water baptism.

Jews were baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Jesus told Paul to go speak to a preacher to learn the plan of salvation in (Acts 9). We hear that conversation in (Acts 22:16). Paul was baptized in water three days after speaking to Jesus on the road.(Acts 9:9)

We see water baptism is a command of God in (Acts 10:48)

We see the Jailer in (Acts 16:30-34) out in the dark looking for water so he can be baptized. Ever wondered why he did not wait till the next day during daylight hours? Why did he not wait till a week or a month later?

Belief + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:15,16)

Thank you for illuminating the fact that that account goes beyond vs. 31.

 

[rrobs]

The Church Fathers on Baptism’s Purpose

By Wayne Jackson

A History of the Baptism Apostasy

The divine connection between baptism and the forgiveness of past sins was universally acknowledged by writers of the post-apostolic age. They recognized, and appealed to, the divine authority of the Scriptures for this conviction (Mk.16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Tit. 3:5; 1 Pet. 3:21, etc.). George P. Fisher (1827-1909), a professor at Yale Divinity School and prominent church historian, wrote:

I don't see the need to be immersed in Titus.

Titus 3:4-6,

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;​

It looks like it was God that did the washing and renewing through Jesus Christ.

Nor do I see water in 1 Peter.

1 Pet 3:21,

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

It specifically says the flesh is not involved. Instead it is our consciousness of God and the resurrection of Jesus Christ that cleansed us from all filth.

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

Water or holy spirit? Let each choose, but I'll take holy spirit any day. John was before Jesus. Much changed with the death and resurrection of Jesus and baptism is one of them.

It's preposterous to tell a fellow Christian they are not saved because they've never been water baptized.

2 Tim 1:12,

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
​

In one verse God tells me there is no need to let anyone shame me because the one in whom I have believed, Jesus Christ, not only justifies me in this life, but he is able to keep me until the day of his return, i.e. I'm saved and I'll stay saved. It's not my dead flesh, specifically the dunking of that dead flesh in water that preserves me, but the work of my Lord and Savior. It's an exciting life indeed to know that my inheritance is reserved for me in the new heavens and earth that is surely coming. I need have no doubt or fear of coming up short. Jesus did a complete job. I am saved through faith and not works. I began that way and I'll keep going that way.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Verse 3 is one that each believer should consider when they decide to walk with God. I answer it with a resounding NO!!!

 

[Nova2216]

Let's look at (Mark 16:15,16) a moment.


15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;


Go ye into all the world (everyone)

preach the gospel (the good news)

to every creature (everyone)

Believe + Baptized = Saved (the gospel which saves)


God included baptism in the gospel which saves the souls of men.


Why are people not teaching this to all the people of the world?



(Acts 2:36-47) (Acts 8) and (Acts 22:16) when studied together are a very powerful lessons

There is only one gospel saving message (not two). (Rom.1:16).



Thanks.

 

[Nova2216]

I don't see the need to be immersed in Titus.

Titus 3:4-6,

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;​

It looks like it was God that did the washing and renewing through Jesus Christ.

Nor do I see water in 1 Peter.

1 Pet 3:21,

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

It specifically says the flesh is not involved. Instead it is our consciousness of God and the resurrection of Jesus Christ that cleansed us from all filth.

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

Water or holy spirit? Let each choose, but I'll take holy spirit any day. John was before Jesus. Much changed with the death and resurrection of Jesus and baptism is one of them.

It's preposterous to tell a fellow Christian they are not saved because they've never been water baptized.

2 Tim 1:12,

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
​

In one verse God tells me there is no need to let anyone shame me because the one in whom I have believed, Jesus Christ, not only justifies me in this life, but he is able to keep me until the day of his return, i.e. I'm saved and I'll stay saved. It's not my dead flesh, specifically the dunking of that dead flesh in water that preserves me, but the work of my Lord and Savior. It's an exciting life indeed to know that my inheritance is reserved for me in the new heavens and earth that is surely coming. I need have no doubt or fear of coming up short. Jesus did a complete job. I am saved through faith and not works. I began that way and I'll keep going that way.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Verse 3 is one that each believer should consider when they decide to walk with God. I answer it with a resounding NO!!!

Now all you need to do is harmonize the one baptism of (Eph.4:5) with the verses you posted.

So which baptism would fit?

 

[Nova2216]

I don't see the need to be immersed in Titus.

Titus 3:4-6,

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;​

It looks like it was God that did the washing and renewing through Jesus Christ.

Nor do I see water in 1 Peter.

1 Pet 3:21,

The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:​

It specifically says the flesh is not involved. Instead it is our consciousness of God and the resurrection of Jesus Christ that cleansed us from all filth.

Acts 1:5,

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
​

Water or holy spirit? Let each choose, but I'll take holy spirit any day. John was before Jesus. Much changed with the death and resurrection of Jesus and baptism is one of them.

It's preposterous to tell a fellow Christian they are not saved because they've never been water baptized.

2 Tim 1:12,

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
​

In one verse God tells me there is no need to let anyone shame me because the one in whom I have believed, Jesus Christ, not only justifies me in this life, but he is able to keep me until the day of his return, i.e. I'm saved and I'll stay saved. It's not my dead flesh, specifically the dunking of that dead flesh in water that preserves me, but the work of my Lord and Savior. It's an exciting life indeed to know that my inheritance is reserved for me in the new heavens and earth that is surely coming. I need have no doubt or fear of coming up short. Jesus did a complete job. I am saved through faith and not works. I began that way and I'll keep going that way.

Gal 3:1-3,

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?​

Verse 3 is one that each believer should consider when they decide to walk with God. I answer it with a resounding NO!!!

* Rob - Water or holy spirit? Let each choose, but I'll take holy spirit any day.



Nova - There is no choice.

(Eph.4:5) says there is now one baptism.


(Col.2:12) will help you make the decision.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God... having forgiven you all trespasses;


Notice if you will one is buried in something and then raised up out of it... Then our sins are forgiven.

Water baptism fits very well.

It is the only thing in which one is buried into and raised out of.

 

[rrobs]

* Rob - Water or holy spirit? Let each choose, but I'll take holy spirit any day.

Nova - There is no choice.

(Eph.4:5) says there is now one baptism.

(Col.2:12) will help you make the decision.

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God... having forgiven you all trespasses;

Notice if you will one is buried in something and then raised up out of it... Then our sins are forgiven.

Water baptism fits very well.

It is the only thing in which one is buried into and raised out of.

It could be that Col 2:12 was speaking of water if it weren't for the fact that our baptism occurred some 2,000 years ago, not last week by the local pastor. Also, I think it clear that Jesus said baptism in holy spirit was superior to baptism in water (Acts 1:5). At least that would be the normal meaning of those words in our everyday life. "John gave you $10 but I'll give you $10,000." Which is better?

Heb 9:10,

[Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
​

The reformation occurred with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Heb 9:15,

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
​

We are talking about an eternal inheritance, not getting dunked in water. There is no inheritance in water, but there is in the death and resurrection of Christ. Water won't hurt, but it isn't necessary.

​

 

[Nova2216]

In Defense of...God's Plan of Salvation

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

Numerous New Testament writers made the point that it is only when we come into contact with Christ’s blood that our sins can be washed away (Ephesians 1:7-8; Revelation 5:9; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:12-14). The question arises: When did Jesus shed His blood? The answer, of course, is that He shed His blood on the Cross at His death (John 19:31-34). Where, and how, does one come into contact with Christ’s blood to obtain the forgiveness of sin that such contact ensures? Paul answered that question when he wrote to the Christians in Rome. It is only in baptism that contact with the blood, and the death, of Christ is made (Romans 6:3-11). Further, the ultimate hope of our resurrection (to live with Him in heaven) is linked to baptism. Paul wrote of “having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). If we are not baptized, we remain in our sins. If we are not baptized, we have no hope of the resurrection that leads to heaven.

Baptism, of course, is no less, or more, important than any other of God’s commands regarding what to do to be saved (see Jackson, 1997). But it is necessary. And one cannot be saved without it. Is baptism a command of God? Yes, it is (Acts 10:48). Is baptism where the remission of sins occurs? Yes, it is (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21).


In Defense of...God's Plan of Salvation

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

 

[rrobs]

In Defense of...God's Plan of Salvation

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

Numerous New Testament writers made the point that it is only when we come into contact with Christ’s blood that our sins can be washed away (Ephesians 1:7-8; Revelation 5:9; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 9:12-14). The question arises: When did Jesus shed His blood? The answer, of course, is that He shed His blood on the Cross at His death (John 19:31-34). Where, and how, does one come into contact with Christ’s blood to obtain the forgiveness of sin that such contact ensures? Paul answered that question when he wrote to the Christians in Rome. It is only in baptism that contact with the blood, and the death, of Christ is made (Romans 6:3-11). Further, the ultimate hope of our resurrection (to live with Him in heaven) is linked to baptism. Paul wrote of “having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead” (Colossians 2:12). If we are not baptized, we remain in our sins. If we are not baptized, we have no hope of the resurrection that leads to heaven.

Baptism, of course, is no less, or more, important than any other of God’s commands regarding what to do to be saved (see Jackson, 1997). But it is necessary. And one cannot be saved without it. Is baptism a command of God? Yes, it is (Acts 10:48). Is baptism where the remission of sins occurs? Yes, it is (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21).


In Defense of...God's Plan of Salvation

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

I'm curious, why don't you understand Colossians 2:12 as having occurred 2,000+ years ago? It seems plain enough. It's a terrible proof verse for water baptism.

Then there is:

Rom 6:4,

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
​

The words "we are buried" are in the Greek Aorist tense, which indicates a one time event in the past, in this case, when Jesus died. Most English translations use the past tense to align more closely to the Greek texts. It says the same thing as Colossians 2:12.

In general it is interesting how so many try to nullify a verse in Ephesians.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

Is it somehow thought that God choosing me to be holy and without blame was a mistake on His part? Did He somehow not realize I'd commit too many sins after my new birth?

All in all, it is sad that so much of Christendom does not believe in the completeness of Jesus' work on our behalf.

 

[e.r.m.]

I'm curious, why don't you understand Colossians 2:12 as having occurred 2,000+ years ago? It seems plain enough. It's a terrible proof verse for water baptism.

Then there is:

Rom 6:4,

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
​

The words "we are buried" are in the Greek Aorist tense, which indicates a one time event in the past, in this case, when Jesus died. Most English translations use the past tense to align more closely to the Greek texts. It says the same thing as Colossians 2:12.

In general it is interesting how so many try to nullify a verse in Ephesians.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

Is it somehow thought that God choosing me to be holy and without blame was a mistake on His part? Did He somehow not realize I'd commit too many sins after my new birth?

All in all, it is sad that so much of Christendom does not believe in the completeness of Jesus' work on our behalf.

Do you then believe that man has no part in being saved? That faith and repentance come only after being saved?

 

[rrobs]

Do you then believe that man has no part in being saved? That faith and repentance come only after being saved?

Rom 10:9-10,

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

One thing to notice is that our belief and confession are "unto" righteousness and salvation. Our belief, in and of itself, does not save us. Jesus saved us once and for all by his obedience to his Father. Our belief puts us "unto" a place where God can create a new creation within those who do Romans 10:9-10. All of that is possible because of the work Jesus did during his first coming.

Like the old preacher used to say, "ya gotta believe brother." Good advice to those dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1, Col 2:13).

God bless

 

[Muffled]

I believe all scripture has to be understood in context. The context was the crucifixion. If one wishes context on what Jesus daid about the crucifixion then see John 3:16.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus physical life was finished.

I believe there are many who think so but my guess is that the body continued to live for a bit after the Spirit of God left. The questio is whether yo would still call it Jesus if the Spirit is gone or simply the body of Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus meant, the debt of humanity’s sin had been paid in full...

“the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.”

What did Jesus mean when He said, “It is finished”? | GotQuestions.org

I don't believe yo are capable of knowing what was on His mind at that moment unless the Holy Spirit tells you. Paid in full can simply mean what He was going through. So if I am buying a car I am going through the payments until the final payment comes. In the crucifixion, he was proceeding through the suffering until it was time for the suffering to end.