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Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but throug
- Thread starter John Martin
- Start date
I'm not sure I could handle that.So you're gonna play it like that, eh?
Would you please do a one-to-one debate with chinu?
To answer your question, no I'm not familiar with that.
I'm not sure I could handle that.
That is sort of what I gathered, but thanks for not leaving it hanging
It's something I think you'd be interested in reading about it on Wikipedia or OrthodoxWiki
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi, Sage Tree!
Those questions....
Who wrote this gospel?
When was this gospel written?
Real questions......
The last time I read G.John throughout was in 1994. It did vary a lot from G.Matthew and G.Mark, and I must say that I was more attracted to Matthew and Mark.
Right now, on this thread, I just want to ask Christians who they think did write G.John and when, because their answers can be of real value to me. Since these passages have such massive import for Christians, each one of them might be able to give a reply by return. But not one has.
As a religious mongrel I'm more and more interested in Jesus; that interest has grown and developed in the several months that I've visited this forum. But my interest is more focused towards 'How to talk about Jesus to atheists and agnostics'.
Obviously, if no Christians present can answer my two questions, that is answer enough for me, but if any wish to....... great. :yes:
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
'Son of God'.
It is possible that all Jews were sons of God. God watched over, and guided, and taught, and judged, all Jews. Theirs might have been the only Theocracy in the 'World' at that time. They were the children of God, and, by implication all the males were 'Sons of God'. There could be little doubt that Jesus was a 'Son of God'. Interestingly, he also referred to himself as 'Son of man', amongst other terms.
Thanks for letting me know. As I'm sure you have noticed,
here on RF people tend to set themselves up with slow balls to knock out of the part.
So glad these are real questions
Matthew, Mark, Luke are the 'synoptic' Gospels, and are very similar,
are theorized to come from one source... it's a theory.
As you say, John is different.
It's Christology is higher.
Was written last of the Gospels.
Often said to be a more Gnostic or Mystic document.
For the time being, I'm going to hold back from answering or commenting as it were.
Until then, Wiki-pages are a good snapshot of some different thoughts which might add to your question-answer.
:namaste
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Windwaker,
you have said well. It implies that the 'I' which Jesus refers is not physical individual 'I' of Jesus, not Jewish 'I ' of Jesus, but the divine 'I' of Jesus. Jesus inviting everyone to discover this divine 'I' within and say like Jesus 'him 'I am the way,the truth and the life'. Then Jesus becomes our brother who has done that and invites us to do it.
thank you so much.
you have said well. It implies that the 'I' which Jesus refers is not physical individual 'I' of Jesus, not Jewish 'I ' of Jesus, but the divine 'I' of Jesus. Jesus inviting everyone to discover this divine 'I' within and say like Jesus 'him 'I am the way,the truth and the life'. Then Jesus becomes our brother who has done that and invites us to do it.
thank you so much.
John Martin
Active Member
Thank you Windwalker. It feels good to find similar thinkers.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Oldbager,
it seems that the gospels reveal a growth in Christology. The gospel of Mark which is suppose to be the first gospel, does not give genealogy. Mathew's gospel, written for the Jewish Christians gives genealogy up to Abraham. Jesus is the son of Abraham. Luke's gospel probably written keeping in mind the non-Jewish Christians, takes genealogy to Adam, Jesus is son of Adam. As son of Adam Jesus unites himself with the whole of humanity and creation. John takes one step further, beyond Adam. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not only one with humanity but also one with God. But it seems that John limits this possibility only to Jesus. So I feel that we need to take Christology one step further by opening the God experience of Jesus to everyone. Do we need a fifth gospel?
it seems that the gospels reveal a growth in Christology. The gospel of Mark which is suppose to be the first gospel, does not give genealogy. Mathew's gospel, written for the Jewish Christians gives genealogy up to Abraham. Jesus is the son of Abraham. Luke's gospel probably written keeping in mind the non-Jewish Christians, takes genealogy to Adam, Jesus is son of Adam. As son of Adam Jesus unites himself with the whole of humanity and creation. John takes one step further, beyond Adam. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Jesus is not only one with humanity but also one with God. But it seems that John limits this possibility only to Jesus. So I feel that we need to take Christology one step further by opening the God experience of Jesus to everyone. Do we need a fifth gospel?
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John Martin
Active Member
Dear Oldbadger, (sorry I called you Oldbager),
As per my knowledge, the biblical scholars are not sure the author of the gospel of John. The gospel seems to say that it is the eye witness of the beloved disciples. Some think that it may belong to the school of St.John. Some doubt if it an historical narrative or a theological narrative.
The time of its writing is from 90 AD to100.
'How to talk about Jesus to atheists and agnostics'.
The way I talk about Jesus to atheists and agnostics is that Jesus opened the door from the God of history and authority to the God of freedom and silence. Religions tend to limit God to the God of history and authority who demands the obedience of will and intellect. The God of eternity( I am who I am) gives freedom to human beings. Secularism and atheism demand freedom to think,to will and to act. The God of religions doe not give this freedom. Agnosticism,secularism and atheism are genuine longing of the human heart to discover the God of freedom. Jesus opened this door. 'Truth will make you free' he said.Just as the Father has life in himself,he has granted the Son to have life in himself,I have come to give life and give it abundantly'. Jesus takes the humanity from the God of history to the God of eternity. Agnosticism and atheism reject the God of history, power and authority and thus open the door to the God of eternity. Hence agnosticism,secularism and atheism are an important stage in the evolution of human consciousness.
As per my knowledge, the biblical scholars are not sure the author of the gospel of John. The gospel seems to say that it is the eye witness of the beloved disciples. Some think that it may belong to the school of St.John. Some doubt if it an historical narrative or a theological narrative.
The time of its writing is from 90 AD to100.
'How to talk about Jesus to atheists and agnostics'.
The way I talk about Jesus to atheists and agnostics is that Jesus opened the door from the God of history and authority to the God of freedom and silence. Religions tend to limit God to the God of history and authority who demands the obedience of will and intellect. The God of eternity( I am who I am) gives freedom to human beings. Secularism and atheism demand freedom to think,to will and to act. The God of religions doe not give this freedom. Agnosticism,secularism and atheism are genuine longing of the human heart to discover the God of freedom. Jesus opened this door. 'Truth will make you free' he said.Just as the Father has life in himself,he has granted the Son to have life in himself,I have come to give life and give it abundantly'. Jesus takes the humanity from the God of history to the God of eternity. Agnosticism and atheism reject the God of history, power and authority and thus open the door to the God of eternity. Hence agnosticism,secularism and atheism are an important stage in the evolution of human consciousness.
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I can tell you have ventured into that place. How is it that Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you".
John Martin
Active Member
Thanks SageTree, beautifully said.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Odion,
Thank you for your post. I feel you have hit on the nail. The essential teaching of Christ is the love of God and the love of neighbour. This teaching was already there in his spiritual tradition. His religion summarized the Ten Commandments into two commandments, love of God and love of neighbour.
But this love of God was dualistic love of God and the dualistic love of neighbour. It is experiencing God as our creator and our neighbours as fellow creatures. Jews considered Yahweh only their God and they were his chosen people. They had special covenant with Yahweh: and the neighbour was a fellow Jew. (During the time of Jesus there were arguments about who neighbour was. So they asked Jesus, who is my neighbour. Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan).What Jesus did was that he elevated the love of God and expanded the love of neighbour.
He elevated the love of God from the dualistic love of God and love of neighbor to non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour. When Jesus said, the Father (God) and I are one, it is non-dualistic love of God. It means to say, I am not a creature of God but I am one with God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me , he was referring to the non-dualistic love of neighbour. The neighbours were not separate from him. He was in everyone and everything. He was one with God and one with the whole of humanity and of creation. This is called non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour.
The God of Jesus is not just the God of his religion but he or she is the God of the whole of creation and of the whole of humanity. His neighbours are not just his fellow religious persons but the whole of humanity and whole of creation.
Yes, the way of Jesus is the love of God and love of neighbour but it is growing from the dualistic love of God and love of neighbour to the non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour.
Thank you for your post. I feel you have hit on the nail. The essential teaching of Christ is the love of God and the love of neighbour. This teaching was already there in his spiritual tradition. His religion summarized the Ten Commandments into two commandments, love of God and love of neighbour.
But this love of God was dualistic love of God and the dualistic love of neighbour. It is experiencing God as our creator and our neighbours as fellow creatures. Jews considered Yahweh only their God and they were his chosen people. They had special covenant with Yahweh: and the neighbour was a fellow Jew. (During the time of Jesus there were arguments about who neighbour was. So they asked Jesus, who is my neighbour. Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan).What Jesus did was that he elevated the love of God and expanded the love of neighbour.
He elevated the love of God from the dualistic love of God and love of neighbor to non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour. When Jesus said, the Father (God) and I are one, it is non-dualistic love of God. It means to say, I am not a creature of God but I am one with God. When he said whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters that you do unto me , he was referring to the non-dualistic love of neighbour. The neighbours were not separate from him. He was in everyone and everything. He was one with God and one with the whole of humanity and of creation. This is called non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour.
The God of Jesus is not just the God of his religion but he or she is the God of the whole of creation and of the whole of humanity. His neighbours are not just his fellow religious persons but the whole of humanity and whole of creation.
Yes, the way of Jesus is the love of God and love of neighbour but it is growing from the dualistic love of God and love of neighbour to the non-dualistic love of God and love of neighbour.
John Martin
Active Member
Dear Windwaker,
The more one is "like Christ", the less Christ looks like what we assumed.
this is excellent. thanks.
The more one is "like Christ", the less Christ looks like what we assumed.
this is excellent. thanks.
John Martin
Active Member
I can tell you have ventured into that place. How is it that Jesus said, "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you".
Dear Windwaker,
When we enter into the realm of reality where we transcend all our limited labels we encounter the spirit, which reveals us greater things, which gives us different eyes, different ears and different state of mind to do things differently and to understand things differently. Flesh and blood,conditioned minds do not reveal these things. It is always joy to come across persons who have the similar vision.
Dear Windwaker,
When we enter into the realm of reality where we transcend all our limited labels we encounter the spirit, which reveals us greater things, which gives us different eyes, different ears and different state of mind to do things differently and to understand things differently. Flesh and blood,conditioned minds do not reveal these things. It is always joy to come across persons who have the similar vision.
John Martin
Active Member
Son of God'.
It is possible that all Jews were sons of God. God watched over, and guided, and taught, and judged, all Jews. Theirs might have been the only Theocracy in the 'World' at that time. They were the children of God, and, by implication all the males were 'Sons of God'. There could be little doubt that Jesus was a 'Son of God'. Interestingly, he also referred to himself as 'Son of man', amongst other terms.
Dear Oldbadger,
Thank you so much for underlining the word the Son of God. I think it is very important theme need to be discussed. When the Jews and Muslims here this word, they would understand that every one is the son of God. Of course the expression the Son of God is more metaphorical than metaphysical. I am inclined to believe that the expression son of God is metaphorical than metaphysical. Usually we project our physical realities as metaphors for the spiritual world.
There are three different ways we can understand the expression son of God:
1. Individual son of God
2. Collective son of God
3. Universal son of God
4. Oneness with God
An individual son of God is one who is one among many individuals and who worships God as an individual. In this sense everyone is a son of God and there can be billions of a sons and daughters of God. In this level a person lives only for himself or herself.
A collective son refers to a group of people. For example in the Old Testament God says, I have called my son out of Egypt. The expression son here does not refer to a particular individual but Israel, as a collective group. There may be billions of individual sons and daughters of God but there may be few collective sons and daughters of God. Every exclusive belief system may be called a collective son of God or daughter of God. A collective son or daughter lives for his collective group and is ready to die for his or her collective group. A person who initiates this particular group is a prophet or a founder of that collective group. A collective group tends to be exclusive and it has its boundary to protect and a possible mission to expand. Moses stood before God representing the people of Israel. He stood before God in the name of his people and he spoke to people in the name of Yahweh.
The Universal Son of God or the Son of God is one who is united with the whole of humanity and of creation. He or she lives for the welfare of the whole of humanity and of creation. He stands before God representing the whole of humanity and of creation. He speaks to the whole of humanity and of creation in the name of God. I would like to say that the Son of Man is the expression to the one who stands before God representing the whole of creation and the Son of God is the expression who speaks to the whole of humanity and creation in the name of God. The Son of God and the Son of Man is the mediator between God and creation.
The Fourth stage is the experience of oneness with God where a person says, the Father or God and I are one. This I is not individual I or collective I or universal I but divine I. In this level person lives for all times, past, present and future.
I try to describe this with the analogy of a tree. A tree has leaves, branches, trunk and the roots. Leaves represent Individual sons and daughters of God; branches represent the collective sons and daughters of God; Trunk represents the Universal Son of God or Daughter of God; Roots represent oneness with God or Son of God the Divine I.
Jesus Christ began his journey as a son of God. As a Jew he became a collective son of God. At the moment of his baptism he grew into the Son of God; finally he entered into God and said the Father and I are one. So the statement no one comes to the Father except through me can be understood to mean that no one can to the experience of God I have in which I can say the Father and I are one unless you take the same path I have taken. It is the path of growing from the individual I to the divine I, from the identification with a leaf to the identification with the roots, finally being the whole tree, the Tree of Life.
It is possible that all Jews were sons of God. God watched over, and guided, and taught, and judged, all Jews. Theirs might have been the only Theocracy in the 'World' at that time. They were the children of God, and, by implication all the males were 'Sons of God'. There could be little doubt that Jesus was a 'Son of God'. Interestingly, he also referred to himself as 'Son of man', amongst other terms.
Dear Oldbadger,
Thank you so much for underlining the word the Son of God. I think it is very important theme need to be discussed. When the Jews and Muslims here this word, they would understand that every one is the son of God. Of course the expression the Son of God is more metaphorical than metaphysical. I am inclined to believe that the expression son of God is metaphorical than metaphysical. Usually we project our physical realities as metaphors for the spiritual world.
There are three different ways we can understand the expression son of God:
1. Individual son of God
2. Collective son of God
3. Universal son of God
4. Oneness with God
An individual son of God is one who is one among many individuals and who worships God as an individual. In this sense everyone is a son of God and there can be billions of a sons and daughters of God. In this level a person lives only for himself or herself.
A collective son refers to a group of people. For example in the Old Testament God says, I have called my son out of Egypt. The expression son here does not refer to a particular individual but Israel, as a collective group. There may be billions of individual sons and daughters of God but there may be few collective sons and daughters of God. Every exclusive belief system may be called a collective son of God or daughter of God. A collective son or daughter lives for his collective group and is ready to die for his or her collective group. A person who initiates this particular group is a prophet or a founder of that collective group. A collective group tends to be exclusive and it has its boundary to protect and a possible mission to expand. Moses stood before God representing the people of Israel. He stood before God in the name of his people and he spoke to people in the name of Yahweh.
The Universal Son of God or the Son of God is one who is united with the whole of humanity and of creation. He or she lives for the welfare of the whole of humanity and of creation. He stands before God representing the whole of humanity and of creation. He speaks to the whole of humanity and of creation in the name of God. I would like to say that the Son of Man is the expression to the one who stands before God representing the whole of creation and the Son of God is the expression who speaks to the whole of humanity and creation in the name of God. The Son of God and the Son of Man is the mediator between God and creation.
The Fourth stage is the experience of oneness with God where a person says, the Father or God and I are one. This I is not individual I or collective I or universal I but divine I. In this level person lives for all times, past, present and future.
I try to describe this with the analogy of a tree. A tree has leaves, branches, trunk and the roots. Leaves represent Individual sons and daughters of God; branches represent the collective sons and daughters of God; Trunk represents the Universal Son of God or Daughter of God; Roots represent oneness with God or Son of God the Divine I.
Jesus Christ began his journey as a son of God. As a Jew he became a collective son of God. At the moment of his baptism he grew into the Son of God; finally he entered into God and said the Father and I are one. So the statement no one comes to the Father except through me can be understood to mean that no one can to the experience of God I have in which I can say the Father and I are one unless you take the same path I have taken. It is the path of growing from the individual I to the divine I, from the identification with a leaf to the identification with the roots, finally being the whole tree, the Tree of Life.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Thankyou for all your posts to me.
I like the way you laid this out in a developmental process, beginning with birth where we are born fused with the whole world. We are a part of creation, yet there is not yet a separate self. We are yet undifferentiated from it, a son of God, a creation of the divine.
Next, we separate from the world and others into a dualistic world of subject and object, "me and not-me, or a world of me and other. As part of our development we awaken into a separate self, which creates a strong "separation anxiety", or an existential angst. This is the "fall", from God, or separation from the Womb or Ground of Being. We seek return on a deep spiritual level, but cannot face that death in return. And so we move forward seeking outward, beginning by seeking ever-greater and widening circles of unity, beginning with family, moving to peers, moving out to group identification, and so on, until finally reaching identification with all that is, the world, the entire universe, God. At the level of group identification, or an ethnocentric reality, we are that son of God in group identification. "I have called my son out of Egypt". We identify our individuality embedded within group identification.
Next we awaken as an individual in the world, the self-actualized person, or the height of human egoic self-identification. We are aware of our spiritual nature and see God and others in relation to the fullness of our individuality which has moved out to include the whole world. We become globalcentric in our identification, which is much wider, much more inclusive than ethnocentric, or groupcentric. "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."
Next we awaken beyond the separate self in return to our Source, but now as an awakened, fully realized individual expression of God in the flesh. It begins with the marriage of body, mind, soul, and spirit to God, then moves into full union and undifferentiated identity with, and as, God. And yet even God is the Face we assume. That God dissolves into God, "God beyond God" into the Source, the Ground of Being, and all that arises in every moment of time out of the timeless, as That. We are awakened, God in the flesh. And all that arises is seen as it is, Spirit.
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John Martin
Active Member
Thank you Windwaker. it is great to hear your complementing views. God bless.