I agree.... It would also explain in the book of Job, IMO, why Satan came to the throne.
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's sorta problematic, imo, as I've mentioned before.
But remember, I'm way out so far in theological left field that I can't even see the stadium.
Well.... it just may be me that is "way out there in left field".
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's too crowded-- go to center or right, OK!
I believe Elohiym is also sons of God. As sons of God, the hierarchy is God, us, angels. (As I study it)It's too crowded-- go to center or right, OK!
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm not certain what you're saying above, but it sorta reminds me of "I am That", or the variation of "We are That", with the "That" being a reference to God. It's a Hindu teaching that I've come to at least somewhat accept [remember, I question everything
]. To put it another way, a "piece" of God is within us all, plus all of Creation. Matter of fact, Spinoza often used "Nature" [implying everything] as being another name for God.
LOL - It is my mind working faster than my fingers.I'm not certain what you're saying above, but it sorta reminds me of "I am That", or the variation of "We are That", with the "That" being a reference to God. It's a Hindu teaching that I've come to at least somewhat accept [remember, I question everything
Matter of fact, Spinoza often used "Nature" [implying everything] as being another name for God.
The main point is that we, as sons of God, also carry the position of "Elohim". Jesus, "Does not you scriptures say 'ye are gods'"
The rest is just a reflection of positions of authority.
All of Creation expresses a piece of God but, as I view it, it has been twisted by sin and thus, fear (the spirit thereof) and faith are twins in operation but one is of God and one isn't.
PinSeeker
New Member
Hello to all. I obviously just joined the forum; I was "born"... well, a couple of days ago... Thanks in advance for welcoming me to the party.
I agree with Ken's statement here, and I'm going to add a few observations, based on my reading of recent posts here. What's interesting is that Eloyhim and eloyhim are both singular and plural at the same time; both are wrapped into the same term. So both are a multiplicity in persons, and a single entity.
Several things to say to YoursTrue's statement here: Believers in the triune God (YHVH) would react negatively to the assertion that Jesus is connected in a triune arrangement of three equal gods and say in response that Jesus is the second Person of the one true God Who proceeds from (or 'is sent' by') the Father (the first Person of the one true God). In like manner, the Holy Spirit, Who is the third Person of this one true God also proceeds ('is sent by') from the Father in Jesus's name. Before going on, I would say that what I said in response to Ken's statement above is applicable here, too -- YHVH is a multiplicity of Persons... but still, a single Entity. The body of Christ (all believers, a multiplicity but one entity) is a reflection (in many ways, such as a reflection of His glory and even in fellowship) of this.
And to this point...... I would add that each Person of the one true God has a specific role. They are equal in essence/personhood -- and glory, as shown in the prayer of Jesus in John 17) and work together in sovereign unity as one entity to achieve His purpose/glory in redeeming sinners and all of His creation to Himself. Basically:
1. the Father elects/wills/ordains,
2. the Son accomplishes through His public ministry, fulfillment of the Law, and accomplishment of redemption on the cross,
3. the Spirit gives birth to, works faith in, and as our Helper helps each believer persevere to the Day of Christ.
Peter sums these roles up in his first letter when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His (the Father's) great mercy, He (by the Father's will but through the work of the Holy Spirit) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (through and because of the work of the Son), to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power (the ongoing work in us of the Holy Spirit) are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Here again, it is beneficial to think of the body of Christ as a reflection of YHVH in that we all have different roles to play (gifts of the Holy Spirit, like teaching/knowledge, intercession/prayer, service, administration, etc.) in the one entity. We could even talk about married couples in the same light; they are two people, equal in personhood of course, but one flesh, as Moses writes in Genesis 2 (in marriage, the man leaves his mother and father and cleaves to his wife and they become one flesh) and Paul, referring to Moses, says in Ephesians 5.
This is a continuation of what YoursTrue said above. The best Scriptural response to this, I think, is what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-11, that we should "(h)ave this mind among (ourselves), which is (ours) in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every name, so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." So Christ was God with the Father (He says in John that He and the Father are one, that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him), one in form (Greek 'morphe'), meaning of the same essence/nature. When He came to earth, He humbled Himself to the form (again, 'morphe,' essence/nature) of man, but the fact that He humbled or emptied Himself does not mean He ceased to possess His deity but set it aside for a time for man's sake (to accomplish man's redemption). So, though still equal with the Father, He did not use that equality for His own purposes but emptied Himself of it during His life on earth, again, for man's sake, to, as I said above, accomplish the Father's will and man's redemption -- reconciliation between the Father and man, which speaks to His place as our Mediator (Hebrews 9:15, 12:24).
Okay, that was much longer than I meant it to be...... but fun to write.
Grace and peace to all of you.
Thanks in advance for welcoming me to the party."I like Psalm 82 (a mind boggler) 82:1 'God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.' God (Capital - Eloyhim) - refers to YHWH - yet there were gods (also eloyhim). Yet, Jesus, the apostles and the writers of the new testament didn't have a problem with that verse. Jesus, of course, knew and understood these verses."
I agree with Ken's statement here, and I'm going to add a few observations, based on my reading of recent posts here. What's interesting is that Eloyhim and eloyhim are both singular and plural at the same time; both are wrapped into the same term. So both are a multiplicity in persons, and a single entity.
"...to say that Jesus is connected in a triune arrangement of 3 equal gods in one god does not add up to me."
Several things to say to YoursTrue's statement here: Believers in the triune God (YHVH) would react negatively to the assertion that Jesus is connected in a triune arrangement of three equal gods and say in response that Jesus is the second Person of the one true God Who proceeds from (or 'is sent' by') the Father (the first Person of the one true God). In like manner, the Holy Spirit, Who is the third Person of this one true God also proceeds ('is sent by') from the Father in Jesus's name. Before going on, I would say that what I said in response to Ken's statement above is applicable here, too -- YHVH is a multiplicity of Persons... but still, a single Entity. The body of Christ (all believers, a multiplicity but one entity) is a reflection (in many ways, such as a reflection of His glory and even in fellowship) of this.
And to this point...
... I would add that each Person of the one true God has a specific role. They are equal in essence/personhood -- and glory, as shown in the prayer of Jesus in John 17) and work together in sovereign unity as one entity to achieve His purpose/glory in redeeming sinners and all of His creation to Himself. Basically:1. the Father elects/wills/ordains,
2. the Son accomplishes through His public ministry, fulfillment of the Law, and accomplishment of redemption on the cross,
3. the Spirit gives birth to, works faith in, and as our Helper helps each believer persevere to the Day of Christ.
Peter sums these roles up in his first letter when he says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His (the Father's) great mercy, He (by the Father's will but through the work of the Holy Spirit) has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (through and because of the work of the Son), to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power (the ongoing work in us of the Holy Spirit) are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Here again, it is beneficial to think of the body of Christ as a reflection of YHVH in that we all have different roles to play (gifts of the Holy Spirit, like teaching/knowledge, intercession/prayer, service, administration, etc.) in the one entity. We could even talk about married couples in the same light; they are two people, equal in personhood of course, but one flesh, as Moses writes in Genesis 2 (in marriage, the man leaves his mother and father and cleaves to his wife and they become one flesh) and Paul, referring to Moses, says in Ephesians 5.
"But then go into compilations of how Jesus was god/man not equal in the flesh, etc."
This is a continuation of what YoursTrue said above. The best Scriptural response to this, I think, is what Paul says in Philippians 2:5-11, that we should "(h)ave this mind among (ourselves), which is (ours) in Christ Jesus, Who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the Name that is above every name, so that at the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." So Christ was God with the Father (He says in John that He and the Father are one, that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him), one in form (Greek 'morphe'), meaning of the same essence/nature. When He came to earth, He humbled Himself to the form (again, 'morphe,' essence/nature) of man, but the fact that He humbled or emptied Himself does not mean He ceased to possess His deity but set it aside for a time for man's sake (to accomplish man's redemption). So, though still equal with the Father, He did not use that equality for His own purposes but emptied Himself of it during His life on earth, again, for man's sake, to, as I said above, accomplish the Father's will and man's redemption -- reconciliation between the Father and man, which speaks to His place as our Mediator (Hebrews 9:15, 12:24).
Okay, that was much longer than I meant it to be...
... but fun to write.Grace and peace to all of you.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
First of all, welcome to RF, and I look forward to reading your posts.
Recommendations:
-Learn to use the quote link so we know who you may be responding to.
-Keep your posts to the point and don't ramble.
To your point above, the Trinitarian concept does not posit three gods, nor is the word "equal" appropriate with that concept.
Hope you enjoy it here.
PinSeeker
New Member
Thanks for the welcome.First of all, welcome to RF, and I look forward to reading your posts.
Recommendations:
-Learn to use the quote link so we know who you may be responding to.
-Keep your posts to the point and don't ramble.
To your point above, the Trinitarian concept does not posit three gods, nor is the word "equal" appropriate with that concept.
Hope you enjoy it here.
The quote function was not functioning correctly before for some reason. Maybe my connection was weak or... something. To the rambling, I disagree that I was rambling; I thought what I said was necessary for sufficiency's sake. But I do apologize for being possibly a little long-winded.
I agree that the Trinitarian concept does not posit three gods, and that's at least one of the points I was making. Regarding equality, the concept of equality does not imply sameness... thus the different roles of the Persons, as delineated in my previous post.
I'm not sure if you agree or disagree with this, but the three Persons of the Trinity were, are, and always will be equal in deity, power, glory, blessing, and honor. Christ affirms this over and over again (not an exhaustive list)
- He is the good Shepherd (John 10), referring to the Shepherd of Psalm 23
- He assigns to Himself the personal Name of God in John 8:58 (referring to Exodus 3:14).
- He tells His disciples to obey His commandments in John 14 (referring to Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy)
- He prays to the Father that the Father would glorify Him (Jesus) in His (the Father's) own presence with the glory that He (Jesus) had with Him (the Father) before the world existed (John 17).
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Jesus taught a gospel of love. Love is an integrating principle, which in the cases of marriage, family and friends, brings differences together, into a unified team. The team can become more than the sum of its parts; amplification.
Law, which symbolically came from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a polarizing and dissociating principle. It is built on fear; punishment and damnation, and fight or flight. Law and knowledge of good and evil creates two sides that divide people, both outside and inside themselves. The self righteous, in an attempt to be called good; obey the law, may also become evil; condemn others, and call that good.
If we go back to before civilization; symbolize by Adam, when humans were governed by instinct; paradise before law, they were governed by an integrating principles of nature that integrates all of nature; integrated eco-systems. What Jesus taught was an integrating concept that was closer to the original natural living than it was to law. Law has a connection to Satan; the snake in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law has a neural problem as symbolized by the snake.
A snake is a cold blooded critter. It lacks the warm blooded feelings of empathy and compassion. The snake acts on instinct, but without much in the way of analysis; reflex instead of feeling and thought. The snake in the tree of knowledge symbolized how law was regressive, by making an analogy to the evolutionary scale. It creates the land of cold blooded humans, who judge based on reflex; one size fits all as stated by the law.
Jesus spoke of love which is less of a blind reflex from the brain stem, and more an emotional judgement from the limbic system. Love involves more brain processing power, since empathy is a choice; will power, that can appear or be ignored in the land of cold blooded leaders and cold blooded followers.
Love is at the top of the limbic system food chain; advanced data processing, and allows access to a 3-D view of the world; beyond yourself, which was there before civilization, and which is the future of civilization; alpha and omega. Jesus was the second Adam in terms of his vision. I am he.
No war was started by love. It was all based on an extrapolation of knowledge of good and evil. The snake reflex within humans choosing good amplified greed, that appeased their fears. This becomes compulsive; snake in their tree. Law creates a neural subroutine so reasoning becomes tainted; evil in the name of good. I am he tries to neutralize this loop with love and a subroutine that is more 3-D instead of 2-D.
Law, which symbolically came from the tree of knowledge of good and evil is a polarizing and dissociating principle. It is built on fear; punishment and damnation, and fight or flight. Law and knowledge of good and evil creates two sides that divide people, both outside and inside themselves. The self righteous, in an attempt to be called good; obey the law, may also become evil; condemn others, and call that good.
If we go back to before civilization; symbolize by Adam, when humans were governed by instinct; paradise before law, they were governed by an integrating principles of nature that integrates all of nature; integrated eco-systems. What Jesus taught was an integrating concept that was closer to the original natural living than it was to law. Law has a connection to Satan; the snake in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Law has a neural problem as symbolized by the snake.
A snake is a cold blooded critter. It lacks the warm blooded feelings of empathy and compassion. The snake acts on instinct, but without much in the way of analysis; reflex instead of feeling and thought. The snake in the tree of knowledge symbolized how law was regressive, by making an analogy to the evolutionary scale. It creates the land of cold blooded humans, who judge based on reflex; one size fits all as stated by the law.
Jesus spoke of love which is less of a blind reflex from the brain stem, and more an emotional judgement from the limbic system. Love involves more brain processing power, since empathy is a choice; will power, that can appear or be ignored in the land of cold blooded leaders and cold blooded followers.
Love is at the top of the limbic system food chain; advanced data processing, and allows access to a 3-D view of the world; beyond yourself, which was there before civilization, and which is the future of civilization; alpha and omega. Jesus was the second Adam in terms of his vision. I am he.
No war was started by love. It was all based on an extrapolation of knowledge of good and evil. The snake reflex within humans choosing good amplified greed, that appeased their fears. This becomes compulsive; snake in their tree. Law creates a neural subroutine so reasoning becomes tainted; evil in the name of good. I am he tries to neutralize this loop with love and a subroutine that is more 3-D instead of 2-D.
Repox
Truth Seeker
I believe Jesus was God, but gospel writers got it wrong. You can question gospel stories about Jesus by conducting a research study. You find over a period of 30 to 40 years gospel stories changed from Jesus a "wise, or sage" leaders to Jesus, the son of God. So, there is no reliable historical evidence for an opinion!
I think that misunderstands the gospels, and their central function as stories.
Yet one thing the Jesus of Paul, the Jesus of Mark, the Jesus of Matthew, the Jesus of Luke and the Jesus of John have in common is that each of them denied (or in Paul's case, Paul denied) that he was God, and never once claimed to be God.
And each of the gospel Jesuses prayed to God, a silly thing to do if you're just praying to yourself.
The Trinity doctrine doesn't exist until the 4th century. That's when Jesus officially becomes God (and the Ghost does too) as well as the Father. If there was an historical Jesus, he never got to hear of any such ─ in Jewish terms ─ blasphemous nonsense.
It's called christology.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Catholic conception of this is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God:
essence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN
- the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
The Trinity doctrine was devised in the 4th century CE to solve a political problem ─ how to elevate Jesus, the central character of Christianity, to God status without opening the Christians to the charge of pagan polytheism. The doctrine thus declares that God is 'three persons and one substance', such that the Father is 100% of God and Jesus is 100% of God and the Ghost is 100% of God but the Father is not Jesus or the Ghost and Jesus is not the Ghost.
That, of course, makes no sense; and the churches don't claim that it does ─ rather they declare it to be 'a mystery in the strict sense' which is to say that 'it cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it had been revealed'. That is, they acknowledge the Trinity doctrine is a nonsense.
If they could bring themselves to acknowledge that it is in fact polytheism, it would indeed make sense, of course. But that, the record shows, is not what they want.
Repox
Truth Seeker
Yes, but what if it isn't true? An historical analysis of gospels is required. Based on the long history of gospel writing and rewriting, there is adequate evidence to doubt the veracity of NT gospels and Paul's epistles.
Based on what we know from prior gospels and documented information showing the narrative story changing from Jesus a wise or sage man to Jesus the son of God, one may conclude Jesus was not the son of God, but the Old Testament Lord, or God! Assuming, as I have suggested, God is a duality, we have the real story about Jesus in Revelation 11 about the two witnesses. In Revelation, the two witnesses (God) came into the world to give testimony to His chosen people. Knowing Jesus was God and not the son of God, we find the four NT gospels to be in error. Most of the error occurs with reference to gospel narratives. It is difficult to reconstruct the four gospels based on the son of God error. The error makes the four gospels seriously flawed. The best reference for this problem of misinterpretation is found in Burton L. Mack's book, The Lost Gospel Q, in this scholarly book, Mack documents the transition of Jesus sayings and narratives from Jesus a sage or wise leader to Jesus the son of God. In short, we have scholarly information which allows one to conclude the Christian story about Jesus did not derive primarily from literal translations of gospel stories, but from a figurative interpretation by NT authors over a period of several decades. In short, if Jesus was the son of God, then why didn't NT authors find it in early gospels, and why did they propose narrative stories not found in those gospels. The most convincing evidence for false narratives is the evolution of those stories when Jesus wasn't the son of God to stories when Jesus became the son of God. In his scholarly book, Mack illustrates how Jesus stories changed over a period of about forty-five years from a wise or sage man to the son of God. If Jesus was truly the son of God, why wasn't it discovered in original books or writings about Jesus?
Evidently, the idea of Jesus being the OT Lord was not considered. If NT authors had interpreted early stories about Jesus correctly, they would have concluded he was a wise man whose primary concern was to continue in discussion concerning their relationship with Him as His chosen people. We know Jesus made numerous references to what the Lord had told them, and much of what he said continued those ideas. An unambiguous interpretation from original gospels would be God came to "give testimony to his chosen people."
If you still have a problem, I will post further references. Just because there are NT gospels, doesn't mean we know the truth about Jesus. Yes, church authorities decided the Trinity issue, but that doesn't mean they were correct. So much discussion over several hundred years doesn't equate to the truth about Jesus.
The Trinity problem is solved when you regard Jesus as God, and God as a duality. Then, in interpreting gospel material, you find Jesus speaking of himself as "two persons," which later became interpreted as "father and son." The truth about Jesus may be difficult to accept, but, nevertheless, it's there! Jesus was God and God is a duality The Trinity is a pagan symbol. The problem is most of the historical records are gone. So, it becomes a matter of faith, rather than historical evidence. Also, humans prefer pagan gods, so, no matter what records reveal, somehow, someway, humans will find evidence for their god.
Do some research and post what you find! If you have problems, I'll post more references to assist you.
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The question is not whether the gospels are historically accurate ─ plainly they're no such thing. As I said, they're stories. The riddle is whether there was an actual human whose followers were the first Christians.
As to that, there might have been ─ in which case we know very little about him and what he might have taught. Or there might not have been ─ a real human is not essential to account for the gospels.
Repox
Truth Seeker
Yes, it is God's spiritual world inside the universe. It's a difficult to understand. We need a heavenly rule book, or some means for understanding transcendental experiences. What we're disputing are issues which can't be resolved. I've had some revelations which provide a different perspective, but I have no empirical evidence. So, I do historical research to verify them, and, invariable, I run into obstacles. When I found out from my revelations Jesus was God, and God is a duality, I proceeded to conduct research. However, as you say, there is a lack of historical evidence. I've learned the NT gospels have little in the way of historical support.
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