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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East
- Thread starter godnotgod
- Start date
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It shouldn't match "sabachtani" because the word for destiny, helqa/helqwt or, in Aramaic, חלשׁ/helesh, isn't the word in the "Aramaic" (Syriac) NT here. The word in Mark and Matthew is a verb, not a noun (ܫܒܩ, and here is in the perfect 2nd person masculine singular. It's ܫܒ݂ܰܩܬ݁ܳܢܝ or sabachtani. It means to leave, forsake, or desert.
And as shown, there is no negative connotation in the text - that is added with the help of "why" and a "?" mark, where they should not be.
To be "left" is not automatically negative - as in forsaken.
One can be "left" for a purpose = PLACED - for a reason - which is why that is one of the translations for the word.
*
godnotgod
Thou art That
Jesus said: "I am the Light...etc."
John 1 said: "In the Beginning was the Word....etc."
The Word is Jesus who is the Light.
Jesus is also (an embodiment of) the Logos.*
Therefore, the Word, the Logos, and Jesus, are all the same thing: The Light.
Dig?
Why would they be any different?
It is interesting to note that, behind the Word is the Holy Breath. The breath, in the East is Consciousness. In the East, as well as in the West, God spoke the world into existence. And so, the world, including man, came out of consciousness, not the other way around. Here, too, is the clue that the breath, not blood, as in pagan practices, is the life-force. Remember that God breathed his essence into the dust of the Earth to become Adam.
The dual nature of the Messiah was foreshadowed in Daniel 7:
Daniel 7
New International Version (NIV)
7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.
5 “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’
6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
The Interpretation of the Dream
15 “I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
“So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’
19 “Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
*In effect, there is no such thing as a 'teach-er' of the teaching; there is only the Teaching itself, of which Jesus is an embodiment.
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It wasn't practiced until after Jesus was dead. The mythriac mysteries began around the turn of the first century.
None. By the time Mithraism existed in it's Roman form all the gospels had been written.
I can see where you are coming from, but that's not really how religion worked in antiquity. One wasn't a "mithraicist" to the exclusion of other cults. That's why Christians were thought of as atheists: they didn't worship the gods.
Sure, but not so much religion. Religion in antiquity (actually pretty much universally throughout human history) was about practice. Theologies, philosophies, orthodoxies, etc., were pretty much completely absent. Religion was fundamentally a practice, not systematized beliefs.
I'm not aware of any that did. There weren't really "pagan" groups to do this. There were those like Celsus who claimed that the stories about Jesus were nothing new.
From p. 4 of Ulansey's book:
"Mithraism began to spread throughout the Roman Empire in the first century C.E."
Are you sure wiki has B.C., not CE? Ulansey states that the tauroctony was not Persian and that Mithraism, the "mystery religion" version the Romans practiced didn't exist before Jesus. He, Gordon, Beck, & Clauss are probably the names in Mithras studied since Cumont.
Bull slaying Mithras was post-Christian.
It doesn't really mean "just leave" as in "he left the store" but rather something like "he left his wife". "Leave" here is harsher, as in "to forsake" or "abandon".
Like what?
I'll have to look into that. The earliest reference is in Paul, but that doesn't make it the earliest manuscript.
The word itself carries that connotation. And the construction is the reason for the question mark- it's a question.
Really? Where?
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ok, great. But we've gone over this. John 1 says the word became something else- living flesh. It is then that the light appears. Before that no one knew him. John says this: "he was in the universe/world/cosmos, and it [the world/cosmos/etc.] came to be through him, and the cosmos/etc./ did not know/recognize him." He wasn't any light according to the authors of John because humanity was still in darkness.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Ritual prayers and sacrifices, mostly, but even magical spells to force action from or to manipulate the gods played a role. The main idea was to ensure the favor or at least keep at bay the wrath of the gods.
godnotgod
Thou art That
So practice is based on belief in the gods and what they do or not-do in terms of mortals, ie; 'fate'.
It is antithetical to fate. A vast majority of worship/practice is staying the gods from achieving what fate demands. It's so fundamental it made its way into myths.
godnotgod
Thou art That
It actually says: 'And the Word was made [to appear 'in the', or 'as'] flesh', which is not the same as 'became' flesh. (brackets mine).
The light may seem to 'appear' but in reality, it is there from the very beginning.
By 'darkness', do you mean Original Sin?
godnotgod
Thou art That
You know I can read Greek. Why would you tell me what it "actually says"? The word in question is a Greek copula (that is, a word that is similar to the verb "to be")- egeneto. It is a 3rd person middle passive. It means "became". Not made (made implies an agent, and the form of the verb as well as the word itself makes such a rendering inaccurate).
This isn't a matter of religious speculation in general but rather about what the authors of John meant. Light is symbolic in many cultures but frequently doesn't mean the same thing. In John, before Jesus became flesh their was darkness, not light.
No.
Yes. You don't do things based on something you don't believe.
godnotgod
Thou art That
'was made' is not being used in the sense of 'making' something, such as an artifact; it is used in the sense of 'made to be', or 'appear as'.
Nothing 'becomes' something else. Wood is wood and ash is ash. Wood does not become ash.
No. The Light was present at the same time that the Word was being made flesh, but if you mean there was darkness existing as ignorance amongst mortals prior to the appearance of Yeshu amongst men, then yes. Here is the progression:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[The light is already present at this point]
5 And the light [Jesus] shineth in darkness; and the darkness [Ignorance] comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[Here, the gifts of the Incarnation are given to every person, not just to the historical Jesus]
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[IOW, the Light is being shone, but the ignorant don't/can't see/recognize it]
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And [so] the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Word being made flesh and the light shining in the darkness are simultaneous.
[/QUOTE]
Also:
The sentence in English, keeping the Greek arrangement looks like this:
"In beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with the God and God was the Logos." (John 1:1 TR)
Commentary on the Gospel of John Chapter 1 - by Cooper Abrams
Word = Logos = Teaching = Light = Yeshu
They are all a singular reality. The problem comes with the rational mind's dualistic concepts of 'spirit' vs. 'flesh', where no such distinction actually exists.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You don't translate it period. That would require being able the language you are translating from.