Jesus: The Misunderstood Messiah

[Audie]

How was pointing out that your insistence that evidence matters when you didn’t prove or explain how but you just don’t care and you insist that I have to prove to you anyways otherwise my belief is not valid mean I was lying about people I don’t know?

Bye

 

[Nivek001]

I see no evidence of such a God. Such a God may exist, but I have no idea how you'd demonstrate her/his/its/their existence or how you determined what criteria such a God wants us to use to come to conclusions about things.



Again, the notion that evidence is needed for reasonable belief is axiomatic. How would you distinguish reasonable from unreasonable beliefs if you think that beliefs with no evidence to support them are just as reasonable as beliefs with lots of evidence to support them? It's incoherent.



We've been over this. The time to believe something is when there's evidence for it, not simply when it can't be ruled out.



Incorrect. If there's no evidence one way or the other, the reasonable position is to refrain from believing. Which means not believing there were any such Jews, until such time as it's demonstrated there were. There may have been, but we have no reason to think so until such time as we see evidence. I've now explained this multiple times to you.

It's like you're straining to avoid how obvious the point I'm making is.

Again, you've made it abundantly clear that your beliefs are predicated on blind faith, not evidence, and that you think your God wants it that way. If that's the case, there's nothing else to say. Discussing evidence at that point becomes irrelevant.

I'll let you have the last word, if you'd like it. Take care.

Why does evidence matter when it comes to determining if there is a God who wants us to rely on faith instead of evidence for the world to see when it’s possible that the reason why there is no evidence is due to God withholding such evidence of divinity on purpose so that we would have to rely on faith?

So far I have only been getting is just evidence matters without any reason why it matters in this case.

There is one way to find out on a personal level to determine if here is such a God and it’s not by any means of evidence presented thus far.

That way is that I believe that such a God presented a challenge for us to find out on a personal level if he is really there and that is to seek the truth by applying his teachings in good faith and also seeking for assurance that those teachings are true by asking God about them in good faith by means of prayer.

That promise is given that one should receive an answer. Whether that be in the positive or in the negative the promise is put out there. Some have claimed to have done it with receiving positive results and some who have claimed to have done it did not.

Now there is no proof for the world to see that is given to support either conclusion, but since this is dealing with the belief in a God who wants us to rely on faith instead of relying on established evidence for the world to see no evidence is not a suprise, but since there is no proof either way it shouldn’t hurt to try to study the Gospel and apply it to our lives and asking for assurance of truth from God in prayer.

A way to distinguish between reasonable and unreasonable beliefs is something to ask yourself. Such as why would it be reasonable to look at a lack of evidence as something that matters when it comes to determining specifically if there is a God who taught reliance on faith in him instead of relying on established evidence for the world to see. Just because you may find that looking a lack of evidence as being reasonable to determine some things does not mean looking at a lack of evidence is a reasonable way to determine everything.

How is looking at a lack of evidence coherent and not looking at a lack of evidence incoherent when it’s possible that the reason why there is a lack of evidence is due to willful intent?

To me it seems that looking at a lack of evidence when determining if there is a God who withholds evidence of divinity intentionally to be incoherent BECAUSE a lack of evidence fails to address the possibility of willful intent to withhold evidence.

A lack of evidence works as a reasonable point to consider if the belief was in a God who didn’t want us to rely on faith at all and so evidence for the world to see proving his divinity should be presented so that we wouldn’t have to rely on faith. But that is not the case here.

For you to insist that evidence matters in this case and that’s all there is to it gives no reason as to why it matters. If there is no reason why how could it be logical to look at a lack of evidence when determining whether there is a God who wants us to rely on faith in him instead of relying on established evidence for the world to see?

 

[Nivek001]

Bye

Toodles.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Examining His life, I have often encountered the claim that because Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t fulfill certain prophecies, He’s not the Messiah.

My response? From one perspective, that’s true. He was certainly a different kind of figure than people were hoping for. You would be right.

Yet, I do think that because of His Claim to be a different kind of messianic person: a saviour kind of figure, a king who governed the hearts of people, not one who aspired to earthly rule, both Jewish people and those of us who are non-Jews (yes, even Christians) have tended to not give His Teachings a open-hearted look otherwise.

My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?

That all depends on what Jews and Christians your referring to?

As Disciple Paul written in
Romans 9:6--"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"

Therefore there two types of Jews in Israel.
But the question is?
To know which Jew is which...

There are two types of Christians in the world.
The question is?
To know which is the false Christian and the true Christian..
As Jesus Christ said in
Matthew 24:5--"For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many"

Who else besides Christians professes to come in the name of Christ.
Christ = Christian
Christian = Christ.

Therefore what you have in the world.
Is those Christians claiming to come in the name of Christ..but are the false Christians teaching man's teachings and doctrines in the churches..

 

[metis]

Is those Christians claiming to come in the name of Christ..but are the false Christians teaching man's teachings and doctrines in the churches..

And exactly how can one supposedly know whom are "false Christians" and whom are not, unless one tries to be both judge and jury themselves? Isn't this what God is to figure out after we die?

Also, all churches I have ever been in teach the Gospel while recognizing that there are some difference in interpretations and applications. Thus, it seems you are assuming that "doctrines in the churches" are somehow intrinsically wrong.

 

[Wrangler]

It is not "slander" of Jesus to say, "I don't think he met the requirements of what the Tanakh says the Messiah will be/do, therefore I don't think he was the Messiah."

You know that is an interesting point. Wouldn’t the Messiah be the Messiah BEFORE he completed ALL the requirements?

 

[Left Coast]

You know that is an interesting point. Wouldn’t the Messiah be the Messiah BEFORE he completed ALL the requirements?

I suppose so. But we wouldn't know he's the Messiah till he does complete them all, right?

 

[Wrangler]

I suppose so. But we wouldn't know he's the Messiah till he does complete them all, right?

Know? The only thing we know is the past. My question is about the present, particularly dealing with the present absent full knowledge, which is the nature of our existence.

We do not have the luxury of experimenting with all the permutations of life’s possibilities BEFORE living. That is, we have to decide as we go - and cannot withhold decision-making until AFTER. our life is over.

 

[Left Coast]

Know? The only thing we know is the past. My question is about the present, particularly dealing with the present absent full knowledge, which is the nature of our existence.

We do not have the luxury of experimenting with all the permutations of life’s possibilities BEFORE living. That is, we have to decide as we go - and cannot withhold decision-making until AFTER. our life is over.

I agree. Which means all we can use to make reasonable decisions now is the information at our disposal currently to probabilistically judge what is likely true or not.

So if currently, we have stories of a man who supposedly lived 2000 years ago and claimed to be the Messiah, but he did not fulfill anywhere near to all the requirements of what the Messiah was supposed to be or do, like a bunch of other Messiah-claimants both before and after him, and now he's died but supposedly according to his followers he promised to descend from the sky back to Earth some day to finish the job, even though we understand that people only live once and do not come back thousands of years later floating down from the sky...should we now live with any measure of confidence that Christians are likely correct?

 

[Inquire of God]

Examining His life, I have often encountered the claim that because Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t fulfill certain prophecies, He’s not the Messiah.

My response? From one perspective, that’s true. He was certainly a different kind of figure than people were hoping for. You would be right.

Yet, I do think that because of His Claim to be a different kind of messianic person: a saviour kind of figure, a king who governed the hearts of people, not one who aspired to earthly rule, both Jewish people and those of us who are non-Jews (yes, even Christians) have tended to not give His Teachings a open-hearted look otherwise.

My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?

I know that He is the Promised Messiah.
Only "interpretation" keeps people from not accepting Jesus Christ as fulfilling His role as the Messiah.
There is also the strange fact that "interpretation" rather than "knowledge" conversely convinces some people that He is the true Messiah.
Knowledge of whether the matter is true or not should be sought from God by those who want to know.
This can be done quite simply by praying about it until an answer is received.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Examining His life, I have often encountered the claim that because Jesus of Nazareth doesn’t fulfill certain prophecies, He’s not the Messiah.

My response? From one perspective, that’s true. He was certainly a different kind of figure than people were hoping for. You would be right.

Yet, I do think that because of His Claim to be a different kind of messianic person: a saviour kind of figure, a king who governed the hearts of people, not one who aspired to earthly rule, both Jewish people and those of us who are non-Jews (yes, even Christians) have tended to not give His Teachings a open-hearted look otherwise.

My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?

I find it useful in this age that Jesus the Christ promised to return and the Bible shows us that since that promise Christ has returned to give a Message through Muhammad, the Bab and then fulfilled the promise with Baha'u'llah.

Given the comparison of what is offered above, against the doctrine built by the Churches, one can see why the Message of Jesus is misunderstood.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

And exactly how can one supposedly know whom are "false Christians" and whom are not, unless one tries to be both judge and jury themselves? Isn't this what God is to figure out after we die?

Also, all churches I have ever been in teach the Gospel while recognizing that there are some difference in interpretations and applications. Thus, it seems you are assuming that "doctrines in the churches" are somehow intrinsically wrong.

If you know God's Word.
It's easy to figure out the difference between the ture Christians and the false Christians.
The false Christians follows man's teachings and doctrines.
The true Christians only follows the teachings of Jesus Christ..

Let's take the rapture for a example..
Man's teachings and doctrines will tell you that Jesus Christ is coming to rapture people out.

Now man's teachings and doctrines will say that.
Now where does Jesus Christ saying, himself that he's coming to rapture people out.?
what's happening is that man's teachings and doctrines are putting words in the mouth of Jesus Christ.
That Jesus Christ himself never said or spoke of himself.

 

[Skywalker]

It is not "slander" of Jesus to say, "I don't think he met the requirements of what the Tanakh says the Messiah will be/do, therefore I don't think he was the Messiah."

He didn't. He was no more a king than I am a President. If I claimed to be the President, then redefined "President" to mean, "a spiritual leader of people hearts," that would be an absurd moving of the goalposts on my part.

On some level, I think even Christians recognize this, as they admit Jesus didn't fulfill all the requirements. Thus they claim he's going to come back a second time to finish the job.

Jesus came the first time to finish the work of redemption, and he will return to reign for 1000 years. The Tanakh talks about the Millennium Kingdom. Habakkuk 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

[metis]

If you know God's Word.

The Bhagavad Gita?

The true Christians only follows the teachings of Jesus Christ..

As found where? The Bible I suppose? Where and when did the Bible get selected as canon? Also, what about what theologians call "variations", such as four different versions of the women at Jesus' tomb?

Now man's teachings and doctrines will say that.

So, your pastor doesn't give sermons? Does he know and understand Koine Greek and Hebrew? Interpretations are not uniform nor always "gimmees".

what's happening is that man's teachings and doctrines are putting words in the mouth of Jesus Christ.

All denominations do that since there are always going to be differing interpretations on different narratives, and all of us tend to do this for the same reason. As Billy Graham once said, the Bible is simple enough for even one "dull-of-mind" can understand, and yet complicated enough to turn theologians hair grey.

The main thing I think we should always remember is that Jesus taught us that we must follow Two Commandments, thus everything else are either elaborations or applications of those Two.

 

[metis]

BTW, yesterday I got my days mixed up, thus thinking it was Saturday, which is why I said I wouldn't post today. Retirement definitely has its benefits, but keeping track of the days can sometimes be a challenge.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Bhagavad Gita?

As found where? The Bible I suppose? Where and when did the Bible get selected as canon? Also, what about what theologians call "variations", such as four different versions of the women at Jesus' tomb?

So, your pastor doesn't give sermons? Does he know and understand Koine Greek and Hebrew? Interpretations are not uniform nor always "gimmees".

All denominations do that since there are always going to be differing interpretations on different narratives, and all of us tend to do this for the same reason. As Billy Graham once said, the Bible is simple enough for even one "dull-of-mind" can understand, and yet complicated enough to turn theologians hair grey.

The main thing I think we should always remember is that Jesus taught us that we must follow Two Commandments, thus everything else are either elaborations or applications of those Two.

First of all..I do not have a pastor.
As I do not belong to any church or religious organizations..

The reason why...there are so many interpretations..
Because of man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.
Which takes away from God's Word.

This is why The Lord Jesus Christ condemns man's teachings and doctrines in Matthew 15:7-9,
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines..
Luke 6:46--"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Because I’m addressing a claiming that Jewish people make. People in non-Jewish religions, usually speaking, don’t care about any Messiah. It doesn’t apply to them.

If you don't mind me asking. Why does it matter to you what Jews who don't beleive in Jesus think? If he met your criteria then you should be happy with that.

 

[metis]

First of all..I do not have a pastor.
As I do not belong to any church or religious organizations..

Then you are not obeying what's found in the NT, especially since "church" [congregation/assembly] occurs 109 times, thus if church was not important why would it show up so often in the NT?

The reason why...there are so many interpretations..
Because of man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.
Which takes away from God's Word.

You're going around in circles since "God's word" was written, and the canon was chosen, by those in the "Church". It also says that Jesus "taught with authority", and Jesus passed that authority on to the Apostles and their appointees, as it says in the Gospel.

Since you do not follow any of that authority except just yourself as some sort of supposed authority, you thus again ignore what's written.

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines..
Luke 6:46--"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Since you do not recognize any authority, why should you believe in anything found in the scriptures that the Church created, taught, and then passed on through the scriptures?

The Church inspired and created the Bible; the Bible did not create the Church. Thus, you say you believe in the Bible, and yet you have shown over and over again that you actually don't believe in some very important parts of the Bible as you pick & choose what's convenient for you to believe.

IOW, you are not the Church, but for some reason you seem to think you are.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then you are not obeying what's found in the NT, especially since "church" [congregation/assembly] occurs 109 times, thus if church was not important why would it show up so often in the NT?

You're going around in circles since "God's word" was written, and the canon was chosen, by those in the "Church". It also says that Jesus "taught with authority", and Jesus passed that authority on to the Apostles and their appointees, as it says in the Gospel.

Since you do not follow any of that authority except just yourself as some sort of supposed authority, you thus again ignore what's written.

Since you do not recognize any authority, why should you believe in anything found in the scriptures that the Church created, taught, and then passed on through the scriptures?

The Church inspired and created the Bible; the Bible did not create the Church. Thus, you say you believe in the Bible, and yet you have shown over and over again that you actually don't believe in some very important parts of the Bible as you pick & choose what's convenient for you to believe.

IOW, you are not the Church, but for some reason you seem to think you are.

The bible being the Word of God.
Therefore the church did not create God's word.
As written in
2 Timothy 3:16--"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"

2 Peter 1:21--"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost"

Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

Therefore
Myself being 1
The Holy Spirit 2
The Lord Jesus Christ over seeing
Being 3.
Therefore why would I need a church.

You do realize that Satan also has his Ministers in the churches.
As written in
2 Corinthians 11:14-15,
14--" And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works"

Now why would want to go to any church knowing that Satan has his Ministers in the churches..
Satan knows full well where to go to deceive the masses.

 

[rational experiences]

The Bible revealed the time the Messiah was to come. Jehovah's people anticipated the Messiah's time period and thought that maybe John the baptizer might be him Luke 3:15.

Jerusalem was destroyed along with the lineage records shortly thereafter and therefore any messiah that came afterwards would have no documentation of lineage. Evidence shows that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

From Moses as end mutated ape life genesis exited by garden nature became a desert wilderness. When rains flooding earth rained forty years.

How many years has earth since nuclear science experiments owned flooding?

Not world flood but flooding events affecting the whole world?

Word use to explain when irradiated. The language word use is scattered. Explanations difficult.

Reason AI satanic interference by UFO cause.

Maths. Human science caused predicted by science was human knowledge.

Said life sacrificed would be saved healed by mess/mass return spirit by wandering star. Asteroid savior not any man.

Baby DNA sacrificed from firstborn history returns in genetics as proven.

Human spiritual psyche returns. Loving polite human nature returned. We had been saved.

New born human life spiritual proved it by their teachings

Evolved mind allowed science temple pyramid practices to be notified psychic also.

As spiritual father not an evil man invented science. What was ignored.

Ice by pressure changes of gases returned reaccumulated and water oxygen deprived sick bio life healed. Water held instead of evaporating flooding.

Baby life information saved us by detailed descriptive analogy. Not the man adult who died sacrificed. Pre prophecised.

For some reason ignored as the teaching the saviour theme.