Jesus: The Misunderstood Messiah

[Left Coast]

You said none of what was said in the Tanakh regarding what the Messiah would was accomplished by Jesus and his story of his mortal ministry, And I pointed to some scriptures that say to the contrary if your claim.

I suppose I should not have made the absolute claim of none. Jesus was a dude, and the Messiah is supposed to be a dude. And Jesus was a Jew, and the Messiah is supposed to be a Jew. So he meets a couple basic criteria. Huge, glaring holes exist, however.

From the last prophesy you quoted:

“It shall be in that day,” says the Lord of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land,

Jesus did not fulfill this.

and they shall no longer be remembered.

Jesus did not fulfill this.

I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land.

Jesus did not fulfill this.

3 It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, ‘You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the Lord.’ And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies.

Jesus did not fulfill this.

4 “And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies;

Jesus did not fulfill this.

they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive.

I don't know if Jesus fulfilled this? The Gospels make no mention.

5 But he will say, ‘I amno prophet, I am a farmer; for a man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.’

Jesus did not fulfill this.

6 And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’

Jesus did not fulfill this, unless you interpret "the house of my friends" symbolically.

In short, Jesus was an abysmal failure at thr fulfillment of this prophecy.

Also there were some Jews who figured out that the prophecies of the Messiah would cover more than one visit. There were at least 12 of them who even became Apostles. There were also plenty of of others who were disciples of Jesus Christ who were Jews as well.

I asked about Jews before Jesus. Which ones believed the Messiah would be killed, come back to life, then go to heaven and return to Earth later to fulfill all the Messianic prophesies he didn't the first time?

 

[Left Coast]

The Messiah was supposed to do xyz, and he did. The problem is many don't truly understand what God meant by the xyz. They have put their own definitions on what the xyz has to be. And then they declare him to have failed.

Which Jews prior to the 1st century interpreted xyz to mean what Christians think it means?

 

[Colt]

The Jews became the false prophets based on their rigid assumptions of what the coming deliverer was going to do. Had they interpreted the kingdom to be spiritual rather than a nationalist idea then they may have been more receptive.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?

To be deadly honest? In general, no. I'm not familiar with jesus since he has passed away. However, his teachings I'd say are only of value to those who believe in his god as god. "Do unto others" and other general thoughts aren't unique and can be understood more indepth in other religions more so than I've found in christianity.

It depends on the person's foundational belief. I'm not christian, but I do find some books of the bible a good read but nothing I'd base my life on.

 

[Harel13]

My question for Jews, Christians, and others: Whether or not you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, is there anything you find of worth or value to Jesus or His Teachings?

I recall someone once wrote on RF that there's nothing of worth to learn from Jesus specifically because he was merely echoing people who came before him. I concur. Love thy neighbor? An old Jewish teaching. Stay true to your beliefs? Likewise. Occasional need for zealotry? We get that from Pinchas (Phineas) and Eliyahu (Elijah). Follow the rabbis? It's in the Torah.

 

[Sundance]

Could be. Whatever he did mean by it, nonetheless, doesn't work for Jews..

I see. That’s understandable.

I actually wasn't referring to what Christians physically did to Jews. I was talking about the theological aspect.

Ooooohhhhhh....could you give me an example?

Jesus is mentioned a few times in the Talmud. interestingly, the Church disliked this and enforced a censor of these sections. Jews were smart enough to request permission from the Church to be able to make booklets where they wrote the censored sections, in order to know not to copy them (when things where copied by hand) or print them (after printing was invented) in the Talmud itself. Now, as I said, Jesus is mentioned a few times, and so are some of his disciples. However, many hold that this couldn't have been the same Jesus every time, because of anachronisms. For example, one mention of him has him as the student of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachiah, who lived some generations prior to the Jesus of the NT. In fact, there are some the opine that none of the Jesuses mentioned in the Talmud are the NT's Jesus. But I'm of the opinion that at least some of them are. Jesus is blamed in the Talmud for witchcraft and leading others astray. For this, he was punished by hanging on the day before Passover. Some of his disciples also received capital punishment.
That's the Talmudic Jesus in a nutshell.

Oh! Why did the Church censor them, Harel?

Also, what kind of witchcraft was it? Does The Talmud go into any details?

 

[Nivek001]

I suppose I should not have made the absolute claim of none. Jesus was a dude, and the Messiah is supposed to be a dude. And Jesus was a Jew, and the Messiah is supposed to be a Jew. So he meets a couple basic criteria. Huge, glaring holes exist, however.

From the last prophesy you quoted:



Jesus did not fulfill this.



Jesus did not fulfill this.



Jesus did not fulfill this.



Jesus did not fulfill this.



Jesus did not fulfill this.



I don't know if Jesus fulfilled this? The Gospels make no mention.



Jesus did not fulfill this.



Jesus did not fulfill this, unless you interpret "the house of my friends" symbolically.

In short, Jesus was an abysmal failure at thr fulfillment of this prophecy.



I asked about Jews before Jesus. Which ones believed the Messiah would be killed, come back to life, then go to heaven and return to Earth later to fulfill all the Messianic prophesies he didn't the first time?

So, where does it say in all the points you say he did not fulfill that it was supposed to be done in one visit? Where does is deadline on the fulfillment of all of those prophecies?

Just because they are not all fulfilled in one visit does not mean that none were fulfilled in one visit. And I did point out there were some prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus’s mortal life and ministry.

 

[Sundance]

I recall someone once wrote on RF that there's nothing of worth to learn from Jesus specifically because he was merely echoing people who came before him. I concur. Love thy neighbor? An old Jewish teaching. Stay true to your beliefs? Likewise. Occasional need for zealotry? We get that from Pinchas (Phineas) and Eliyahu (Elijah). Follow the rabbis? It's in the Torah.

Wow. I can understand it from this perspective! Since Jesus’s Teachings are found in the Torah, should I follow the Torah? Or I suppose since I’m not Jewish or even a monotheist at that, find a different religion?

 

[Sundance]

To be deadly honest? In general, no. I'm not familiar with jesus since he has passed away. However, his teachings I'd say are only of value to those who believe in his god as god. "Do unto others" and other general thoughts aren't unique and can be understood more indepth in other religions more so than I've found in christianity.

It depends on the person's foundational belief. I'm not christian, but I do find some books of the bible a good read but nothing I'd base my life on.

I can understand, UA. I agree with you.

 

[Harel13]

Ooooohhhhhh....could you give me an example?

Here's a hypothetical:

Christian walks up to a Jew: "Jesus is the messiah!"

Jew: "No he's not."

Christian: "You guys killed the messiah!"

Jew: "No, we killed someone blamed for witchcraft, which even you guys agree is despicable."

Christian: "You killed your messiah!"​

Jew: "Er...no..."

Christian walks away. Jew walks away.​

Something like that...no physical violence involved.

Oh! Why did the Church censor them, Harel?

I haven't really looked into that, because I've always assumed it was because they: a. Didn't want a negative depiction of Jesus to be found. b. Wanted to enforce their views of Jesus onto Jews.

Also, what kind of witchcraft was it? Does The Talmud go into any details?

I don't think it does. But in other places there are some discussions of different sorts of witchcraft, so perhaps it was one of those.

 

[Harel13]

Wow. I can understand it from this perspective! Since Jesus’s Teachings are found in the Torah, should I follow the Torah? Or I suppose since I’m not Jewish or even a monotheist at that, find a different religion?

I think there's a lot of good to be gleaned from the Torah, but it really was written for Jews. You could check out Noahidism, though.

 

[Left Coast]

So, where does it say in all the points you say he did not fulfill that it was supposed to be done in one visit? Where does is deadline on the fulfillment of all of those prophecies?

Just because they are not all fulfilled in one visit does not mean that none were fulfilled in one visit. And I did point out there were some prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus’s mortal life and ministry.

Again, you are attempting to shift the burden of proof. My position is that the Christian interpretation of theTanakh was novel, and no one was anticipating the Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled in the way Jesus' followers claimed he fulfilled them. Nor would any normative reading have led anyone to conclude they would be fulfilled that way. The Gospels themselves, in fact, endorse this notion. Jesus explicitly told his disciples that he was revealing "mysteries" to them that hadn't been revealed previously and that he was intentionally not revealing to the masses.

If you'd like to dispute that, your option is to show evidence that Jews before Jesus interpreted the texts the way Christians do. Can you do so? If you can't, what are we arguing about?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Likely not. The Talmud was written for Jews, not non-Jews.

When I was a child my mom told me never to say 'Underwear'. She also said not to say any four letter words, but I didn't know how to avoid this. Even 'Word' was a four letter word. It made me very curious. Also friends used to trick me into saying 'Underwear' by pointing and saying "Look under there!" True story. I'm not making it up.

 

[Sundance]

Here's a hypothetical:

Christian walks up to a Jew: "Jesus is the messiah!"

Jew: "No he's not."

Christian: "You guys killed the messiah!"

Jew: "No, we killed someone blamed for witchcraft, which even you guys agree is despicable."

Christian: "You killed your messiah!"​

Jew: "Er...no..."

Christian walks away. Jew walks away.​

Something like that...no physical violence involved.

Ohhhhhh from what I understand, there’s an accusation of Christ-killing coming from Christians, when the reality is that Jews actually killed a witch or a sorcerer?

I don’t see anything objectionable about that.

I haven't really looked into that, because I've always assumed it was because they: a. Didn't want a negative depiction of Jesus to be found. b. Wanted to enforce their views of Jesus onto Jews.


I don't think it does. But in other places there are some discussions of different sorts of witchcraft, so perhaps it was one of those.

Re: The church not wanting a negative depiction of Jesus, I can understand, but enforcing one’s views onto others is wrong.


Re: The witchcraft, perhaps it was.

 

[Sundance]

I think there's a lot of good to be gleaned from the Torah, but it really was written for Jews. You could check out Noahidism, though.

I might give it thoughtful consideration, Harel.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don’t think that either one misinterpreted the concept, Brick. The understandings are just different, that’s all. Though, I have mistakenly accused religious Jews of slander, because of my own lack of comprehension. It does cause to think: what else do I not understand about Judaism??

Its a difficult question to answer.

One thing is that Judaism is a tree, not an ethnicity (or not precisely). It is a life form -- that burning shrub in the story of Moses, and its fire is a spreading, non-destructive fire. Out of the fire comes a voice saying freedom. Someone long ago recognized miscommunication as one obstacle faced by anyone attempting to establish a replicating way of life such as Judaism. That is the first thing about Judaism. Books about Judaism cannot actually explain Judaism, because it is a form of life. It doesn't replicate through descriptions. You can never just buy the toy. In this case "The Tao that can be explained is not the true Tao."

 

[Nivek001]

Again, you are attempting to shift the burden of proof. My position is that the Christian interpretation of theTanakh was novel, and no one was anticipating the Messianic prophecies to be fulfilled in the way Jesus' followers claimed he fulfilled them. Nor would any normative reading have led anyone to conclude they would be fulfilled that way. The Gospels themselves, in fact, endorse this notion. Jesus explicitly told his disciples that he was revealing "mysteries" to them that hadn't been revealed previously and that he was intentionally not revealing to the masses.

If you'd like to dispute that, your option is to show evidence that Jews before Jesus interpreted the texts the way Christians do. Can you do so? If you can't, what are we arguing about?

And your proof that every single Jew who ever lived in the Old Testament time period had totally different expectations regarding Messianic prophecy is what? You saying so?

You are the one claiming it’s a fact that no single Jew ever expected fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. That means the burden of proof is on you to establish that was the case, and hint hint: you assuming is not proof.

How does you merely saying I am trying to shift the burden of proof actually proves I am trying to shift the burden of proof?

I’m not the one who is claiming Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. Again, you did not state that it is just your belief that Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. That means you are claiming fact. In order to validate a claim of fact you need to prove it BECAUSE that’s what makes a fact a fact. PROOF.

To basically say I am right and the reason why I am right is because I assume I am right and I reject anything the suggests what I assumed is not proven.. That’s why I am right. That is what you are doing with claiming nobody in an entire religion and country that existed millienia ago expected to think.

Also, how does just saying that Jesus revealed mysteries to his disciples who didn’t receive those revelations before means specifically that none of his disciples received any revelation regarding Messianic prophecy prior to Jesus’s mortal ministry?

Again, I am not the one who insists that every single Jew from over 2,000 years ago took all the scriptures I cited to mean differently than you and I see saw them.

Also, what difference does preconceived notions make? Just because one had a different preconceived notion doesn’t mean their preconceived notion was correct. If a teacher didn’t understand a subject and taught misinformation to the class does not mean that the misinformation has become correct just because everybody in the class learned differently.

Yet, you assume that not only every single Jew from over two thousand years ago believed the exact same thing but also that they all were taught accurate information as well simply because you assume everybody learned the exact same thing.

 

[Nivek001]

And your proof that every single Jew who ever lived in the Old Testament time period had totally different expectations regarding Messianic prophecy is what? You saying so?

You are the one claiming it’s a fact that no single Jew ever expected fulfillment of Messianic prophecy the way I pointed out. That means the burden of proof is on you to establish that was the case, and hint hint: you assuming is not proof.

How does you merely saying I am trying to shift the burden of proof actually proves I am trying to shift the burden of proof?

I’m not the one who is claiming Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. Again, you did not state that it is just your belief that Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. That means you are claiming fact. In order to validate a claim of fact you need to prove it BECAUSE that’s what makes a fact a fact. PROOF.

To basically say I am right and the reason why I am right is because I assume I am right and I reject anything the suggests what I assumed is not proven.. That’s why I am right. That is what you are doing with claiming nobody in an entire religion and country that existed millienia ago expected to think.

Also, how does just saying that Jesus revealed mysteries to his disciples who didn’t receive those revelations before means specifically that none of his disciples received any revelation regarding Messianic prophecy?

Again, I am not the one who insists that every single Jew from over 2,000 years ago took all the scriptures I cited to mean differently than you and I see saw them.

Also, what difference does preconceived notions make? Just because one had a different preconceived notion doesn’t mean their preconceived notion was correct. If a teacher didn’t understand a subject and taught misinformation to the class does not mean that the misinformation has become correct just because everybody in the class learned differently.

Yet, you assume that not only every single Jew from over two thousand years ago believed the exact same thing but also that they all were taught accurate information as well simply because you assume everybody learned the exact same thing.

 

[Nivek001]

And your proof that every single Jew who ever lived in the Old Testament time period had totally different expectations regarding Messianic prophecy is what? You saying so? Where do you get that truth automatically = your assumption.

You are the one claiming it’s a fact that no single Jew ever expected fulfillment of Messianic prophecy the way I presented with certain Old Testament scriptures. That means the burden of proof is on you to establish that was the case, and hint hint: you assuming is not proof.

How does you merely saying I am trying to shift the burden of proof actually proves I am trying to shift the burden of proof?

I’m not the one who is claiming Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. Again, you did not state that it is just your belief that Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. That means you are claiming fact. In order to validate a claim of fact you need to prove it BECAUSE that’s what makes a fact a fact. PROOF.

To basically say I am right and the reason why I am right is because I assume I am right and I reject anything the suggests what I assumed is not proven.. That’s why I am right. That is what you are doing with claiming nobody in an entire religion and country that existed millienia ago expected to think.

Also, how does just saying that Jesus revealed mysteries to his disciples who didn’t receive those revelations before means specifically that none of his disciples received any revelation regarding Messianic prophecy?

Again, I am not the one who insists that every single Jew from over 2,000 years ago took all the scriptures I cited to mean differently than you and I see saw them.

Also, what difference does preconceived notions make? Just because one had a different preconceived notion doesn’t mean their preconceived notion was correct. If a teacher didn’t understand a subject and taught misinformation to the class does not mean that the misinformation has become correct just because everybody in the class learned differently.

Yet, you assume that not only every single Jew from over two thousand years ago believed the exact same thing but also that they all were taught accurate information as well simply because you assume everybody learned the exact same thing.

 

[Nivek001]

And your proof that every single Jew who ever lived in the Old Testament time period had totally different expectations regarding Messianic prophecy is what? You saying so?

You are the one claiming it’s a fact that no single Jew ever expected fulfillment of Messianic prophecy. That means the burden of proof is on you to establish that was the case, and hint hint: you assuming is not proof.

How does you merely saying I am trying to shift the burden of proof actually proves I am trying to shift the burden of proof?

I’m not the one who is claiming Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. Again, you did not state that it is just your belief that Jesus didn’t fulfill any Messianic prophecy. That means you are claiming fact. In order to validate a claim of fact you need to prove it BECAUSE that’s what makes a fact a fact. PROOF.

You are basically saying I am right and the reason why I am right is because I assume I am right and I reject anything that suggests what I assumed is not proven.. That’s why I am right. That is what you are doing with claiming nobody in an entire religion and country that existed millienia ago expected to think.

Also, how does just saying that Jesus revealed mysteries to his disciples who didn’t receive those revelations before means specifically that none of his disciples received any revelation regarding Messianic prophecy?

Again, I am not the one who insists that every single Jew from over 2,000 years ago took all the scriptures I cited to mean differently than you and I see saw them.

Also, what difference does preconceived notions make? Just because one had a different preconceived notion doesn’t mean their preconceived notion was correct. If a teacher didn’t understand a subject and taught misinformation to the class does not mean that the misinformation has become correct just because everybody in the class learned differently.

Yet, you assume that not only every single Jew from over two thousand years ago believed the exact same thing but also that they all were taught accurate information as well simply because you assume everybody learned the exact same thing.