Jesus vs the New Testament

[Desert Snake]

I didn't say they weren't Jews. "Jew" is a tribal designation. You can be an atheist and be a Jew. I said that Karaite Judaism was a heresy. Karaite Judaism is not a person, its a belief set, which is in opposition to Judaism.

You just called it Judaism.

No it's not Judaism. It's a heresy. Those who believe it are Jews. But they are not practicing Judaism. They are practicing a heresy. Again, that's my opinion. Other Jews in the forum may have differing opinions. You'll have to ask them. But in my book, Judaism has respect for Oral Law. You light shabbat candles. You say Kiddush. Etc.

Then, you say it isn't Judaism. Make up your mind.

 

[sooda]

So you say, ...


...


^


You stated in the messiah discussion that the Ketuvim wasn't even prophecy at all, and not part of your religion, in that sense.

So, clearly, when you say Judaism, you don't mean the religion of Jesus, , and it's confusing concepts, to say that, Jesus practiced Judaism, when you also say heresies and not your form of Judaism , 'aren't Judaism'.
Your statements are a confused mess, and even if you are a recent convert to judaism, there's no excuse for this.
That's why you actually need to know that Jesus didn't practice anything close to your form of Judaism, By your own statements.

Ketuvim just means "Writings" or "Hagiographa" doesn't it?

What are you trying to prove about 2nd Temple Judaism?

 

[sooda]

It's still Judaism, according to your definition. So, you just believe it's a heresy, that's all.

Was it around in Jesus day?

Karaite Jews do not accept as binding the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or Malmud.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ketuvim just means "Writings" or "Hagiographa" doesn't it?

What are you trying to prove about 2nd Temple Judaism?

No, it's more that, Jesus religion is Judaic, yet not what is normally in arguments and such, the same as 'Judaism', meaning Rabbinical Judaism. The context is when the argument is made that these are just writings, not prophecy, so forth. More so, if said to be entirely made up, an academic claim, which we did encounter in the Messiah discussion.

Was it around in Jesus day?

Karaite Jews do not accept as binding the written collections of the oral tradition in the Midrash or Malmud.

I would say, yes.
I believe it's Acts of the Apostles, 'Jews from all over', and the inference is that there is variation. We get direct inference anyway, because of Essenes, Jesus's practice, so forth.

The Jewish Bible and the Xian Bible were canonized later, in fact book of Galatians seems to contradict a portion of Genesis 17, so there's that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Ketuvim just means "Writings" or "Hagiographa" doesn't it?

What are you trying to prove about 2nd Temple Judaism?

It's all the same in Jesus religion. Not 'writings', in other words.

Contextually usually the prophecy, however just generally.

 

[PruePhillip]

How do you know the meaning of Shiloh? Is the word used anywhere else in scripture?

Just quickly, without looking anything up. Shiloh I suppose
became a location 500 years after Jacob. A cultic place.
Many names are given to the Messiah, ie The Branch,
The Word, Micheal, the Prince, Zerababel, Emmanuel...
Different translations of this Shiloh business give terms
such as "he to whom" or "Messiah" - the identifier is that
he should come when Israel is finished, and in him the
Gentiles will trust.

 

[sooda]

Just quickly, without looking anything up. Shiloh I suppose
became a location 500 years after Jacob. A cultic place.
Many names are given to the Messiah, ie The Branch,
The Word, Micheal, the Prince, Zerababel, Emmanuel...
Different translations of this Shiloh business give terms
such as "he to whom" or "Messiah" - the identifier is that
he should come when Israel is finished, and in him the
Gentiles will trust.

Oh I know its a place, but where does it identify a person?

 

[sooda]

No, it's more that, Jesus religion is Judaic, yet not what is normally in arguments and such, the same as 'Judaism', meaning Rabbinical Judaism. The context is when the argument is made that these are just writings, not prophecy, so forth. More so, if said to be entirely made up, an academic claim, which we did encounter in the Messiah discussion.


I would say, yes.
I believe it's Acts of the Apostles, 'Jews from all over', and the inference is that there is variation. We get direct inference anyway, because of Essenes, Jesus's practice, so forth.

The Jewish Bible and the Xian Bible were canonized later, in fact book of Galatians seems to contradict a portion of Genesis 17, so there's that.

Rabbinic Judaism, the form of Judaism that developed after the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem (ad 70). Originated in the work of the Pharisee rabbis, it was based on the legal and commentative literature in the Talmud.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you believe that a revised tribal listing is 'Jewish context', or read anti- semitism into the direct inference in the Epistles, which never mentions an idea like that, than that is your problem, and it isn't Christian, or even Jewish, as far as I'm concerned.

Huh? The cults, we can name which cults if desired, say THEY are the 144,000, not literal Jewish people.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The slur of 'replacament theology', shows that you understand neither traditional Jewish belief, or Christian belief, as the texts do not present your interpretation, if you knew more about Judaism you wouldn't even make that association.
So you're a dabbler, just going with whatever theories are presented to you.

I'm not so much a dabbler as I am a Messianic Jew. I was circumcised at home on the eighth day after my birth and was Bar Mitzvah at arguably America's most prominent synagogue. If you're a Gentile, I'd be shocked to have you believe you understand Judaism more profoundly than I. Just last month, I was discussing replacement theology with Jews and Gentiles--in Israel--where I was helping lead a tour group.

Replacement theology, in short, replaces the Jews and their Bible blessings with others. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are Jews. I apologize if I misunderstood you to say differently.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ahhh...

Not Jewish Xian, or a Messianic Xian who's Jewish, what your group is something else, so you have sort of a hodge podge of ideas that may not make sense, contextually.

If being Jewish is wrapped with the idea of works to please God and my circumcision, and being Christian has to do with the unconditional love and grace of Jesus, you may call me Christian, but try to learn something more either of Judaism or Christianity from me before you are so dismissive (and RUDE).

 

[Desert Snake]

Huh? The cults, we can name which cults if desired, say THEY are the 144,000, not literal Jewish people.

I agree that a 'group' estimation, like that, tends to cult or just incorrect interpretation. That being said, it's just " from the tribe of", so, as I interpret this, it's an individualized thing, and there is really no way of telling this.

So on an individual basis, a christian might say, 'im one of those listed, im from the tribe of such and such'.

And, that's their belief, so that is what it is, a personal belief.

 

[Desert Snake]

Book of Revelation is really symbolic, I'm not personally saying anything there is completely literal. We're getting into interpretation, in other words. we know it doesn't say, 'this religious group', though.

 

[Desert Snake]

If being Jewish is wrapped with the idea of works to please God and my circumcision, and being Christian has to do with the unconditional love and grace of Jesus, you may call me Christian, but try to learn something more either of Judaism or Christianity from me before you are so dismissive (and RUDE).

Not my definitions, however regardless.


Also the Epistles make it quite clear that the Church of God, that's the Biblical church, doesn't make distinctions like that.

Nor would I make that sort of distinction, completely foreign to my beliefs.

 

[sojourner]

Didn't practice what is known as Judaism, so vague.

This answer is just vague in general.

What we know of as Judaism is not the same thing as practiced in ancient Palestine. Following the destruction of the temple in 70 c.e., the ancient religion died out and was replaced, eventually becoming the Judaism we know today.

 

[Desert Snake]

What we know of as Judaism is not the same thing as practiced in ancient Palestine. Following the destruction of the temple in 70 c.e., the ancient religion died out and was replaced, eventually becoming the Judaism we know today.

Im not interested in arguing with Rabbinic Jews, whether they were practicing the same religion, which is different from Jesus Religion, in the time of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

Im not interested in arguing with Rabbinic Jews, whether they were practicing the same religion, which is different from Jesus Religion, in the time of Jesus.

How do you know it was different from “Jesus religion?” Jesus may, indeed, have been a practitioner of the ancient Judaic religion. The gospels allude to that fact.

 

[Desert Snake]

How do you know it was different from “Jesus religion?” Jesus may, indeed, have been a practitioner of the ancient Judaic religion. The gospels allude to that fact.

Didn't say it was.

 

[sojourner]

Didn't say it was.

Look at what I quoted from you in post #237. You most certainly do say it was different. That was the whole reason I responded.

 

[Desert Snake]

Im not interested in arguing with Rabbinic Jews, whether they were practicing the same religion, which is different from Jesus Religion, in the time of Jesus.

Look at what I quoted from you in post #237. You most certainly do say it was different. That was the whole reason I responded.

Jesus religion=Judaic
Judaism in time of Jesus=varies
Rabbinical Judaism, now=not Jesus religion