• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus was not all-powerful and all- knowing.

McBell

Admiral Obvious
I am sure you are aware of the arguments made for why God doesn't do something like, perform a miracle, because it would intervene with our freewill. God is also said to not violate his own laws because of free will and how we would have no choice to believe in him.

Don't blast me, its not my logic.
and yet every time one turns around in the USA some Christian is going on and on about this miracle or that miracle...

God is the biggest violator of his own laws.
So what.
There are times when the rule maker violates his/her own rules.
Parents come to mind rather quickly.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
To add to this. Mary simply accepted what was already given to her. She was said to be the only one capable of carrying the child (Jesus). God had his eye on her and her alone and she was to fulfill prophecy. Now unless God wanted to scrap the whole Jesus thing then she had to have the child. The Bible plainly states that Gabriel woke her up and told her the news. She had no choice at all, she simply accepted what had happened after the fact.

So yeah, her freewill was violated in both ways. I would add, "care to try again", but I don't particularly care to be smug.
Mary readily accepted the pregnancy.
She did not say no and then get talked into it.
Now if you want to get into some nitty gritty about it, God knew, being all knowing and all, that Mary would accept it.

So you will have to do much better than that.
Care for a third go?
I hear tell the third time is the charm.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
and yet every time one turns around in the USA some Christian is going on and on about this miracle or that miracle...

God is the biggest violator of his own laws.
So what.
There are times when the rule maker violates his/her own rules.
Parents come to mind rather quickly.


God that was a quick response.

A miracle claimed doesnt = actual miracle. Otherwise Xenus miracles are abundant.


My point was that God can't be incapable of violating his own laws (according to Christians) because of the freewill doctrine, but also be capable when its convenient. They are painting a square circle. If that is whats being argued them I am arguing against any form of logic.

I don't feel like that alone will be enough for people to get what im saying. So ill explain further. God is a timeless being, what he does he would always do. If he doesn't violate his laws for freewill purposes then he doesn't. If God is good then he can't be bad. If Christians are going to nail traits to his character and then take them away on a whim while ignoring his timelessness then we are speaking in terms of square circles.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
Mary readily accepted the pregnancy.
She did not say no and then get talked into it.
Now if you want to get into some nitty gritty about it, God knew, being all knowing and all, that Mary would accept it.

So you will have to do much better than that.
Care for a third go?
I hear tell the third time is the charm.


You must not be aware of many free will arguments and I don't wish to derail this thread any further. If you can't see the problem it doesn't effect me any.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
My point was that God can't be incapable of violating his own laws (according to Christians) because of the freewill doctrine, but also be capable when its convenient.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what the terms all powerful and omnipotent mean?


They are painting a square circle. If that is whats being argued them I am arguing against any form of logic.

I don't feel like that alone will be enough for people to get what im saying. So ill explain further. God is a timeless being, what he does he would always do. If he doesn't violate his laws for freewill purposes then he doesn't. If God is good then he can't be bad. If Christians are going to nail traits to his character and then take them away on a whim while ignoring his timelessness then we are speaking in terms of square circles.
It is illogical to argue logically about a being that is not bound by the logic with which you argue.
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, I guess that settles that then. :rolleyes:

Cool. Let me know if there's anything else I can help you with.
icon14.gif
 
Last edited:

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
label it however you like.
but the fact remains you are merely making logical claims about an entity that is believed by many to be not only all powerful, but also unbound by logic.

Absolutely, I mean we all are. We are trying to come to terms with this being in the only way we know how. I am attempting to discuss God within the Bibles own rules of logic, however you are right. If this God is the God of square circles and anything else completely illogical then we enter a point where we can no longer discuss him because he makes no rational sense.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
So that would make Jesus(pbuh), Mary's(pbuh) son ... why God's son ?

God can do anything...but does He ? Does God go to the bathroom ? These are human/corporeal things which All mighty God is above and beyond.

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (Al Qur'an 3:59)

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded." (Al Qur'an 5:75)

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." (Al Qur'an 4:171)

Why are you quoting the Quran to us?
It was written by Mohamed who is not a Christian Prophet.
We have no reason to believe it has any truth that is relevant to us or Jesus. His views about Mary and Jesus are wrong even blasphemous .

If you wish to believe the things you have mentioned you are free to do so, however in doing so you deny the power of God.
 

muizz99

Sunni Muslim
Why are you quoting the Quran to us?
It was written by Mohamed who is not a Christian Prophet.
We have no reason to believe it has any truth that is relevant to us or Jesus. His views about Mary and Jesus are wrong even blasphemous .

If you wish to believe the things you have mentioned you are free to do so, however in doing so you deny the power of God.

Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word
"Periklytos" which means the admirable or
glorified one. He called that predicted
human prophet "Periklytos". This word
corresponds exactly to the Arabic word
"Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.

John 14:16

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be
with you forever—

John 15:26

26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of
truth who goes out from the Father—he will
testify about me.

John 14:26

26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach
you all things and will remind you of
everything I have said to you.

John 16:7-14

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the
Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I
will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin
and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no
longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into
all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he
will speak only what he hears, and he will tell
you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive
what he will make known to you.

In these four verses, the word "comforter"
is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho
Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is
interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads
the cause of another, one who councils or
advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary
volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are
told that once Jesus (peace be upon him)
departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify
Jesus (peace be upon him), and he will guide
mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.

It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek
manuscripts, of which there are claimed to
be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible
translate this word as "Ghost" to convey
their own personal understanding of the
text. However, a more accurate translation
is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent
translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed
now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is
significant, and will be expounded upon
shortly.

What the translators of the Bible have done
when presented with such discrepancies is to
do their best to choose the correct version.
In other words, since they can not know
which "ancient manuscript" is the correct
one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version"
of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection
techniques.

John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the
Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the
"ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would
find that they are not all in agreement that
the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".

A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human
Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted
the comming of a human Prophet (spirit)
after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus
would not have used the word "he" for the
Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3
below:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because
many false prophets are gone out into the
world," (1 John 4:1-3)

(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human,
for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.

In the
Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas"
Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The
Trinitarian church, however, has done its
utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it
from the masses or to label it a forgery. For this reason, it becomes
necessary to show that even the Gospels
adopted by Paul's church also originally
spoke of Muhammad (peace be upon him).
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

What do you make of this?
Jesus said his followers would also be one, just as he and his father are one. Obviously, Jesus was not speaking of being one person, but one in purpose and at unity.(John17:11,21)
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Wait a second...

Are you saying that the same god that created everything out of nothing is unable to cause Mary to be pregnant with Jesus unless he (the one true creator god) has human/corporeal sex with Mary?

Quite the opposite - I guess you didn't read the entire post with the Quranic verses.

I said God created Jesus(pbuh) like Adam(pbuh) by just saying 'Be' and he was 'Created'. Just because God did it though His word to Mary(pbuh) and that Jesus(pbuh) was born without a father (miraculously) doesn't mean that he is God's son - just like Adam(pbuh) was born without a mother and a father. God is above and beyond the need to have a Son or other corporeal needs that we humans have.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
Quite the opposite - I guess you didn't read the entire post with the Quranic verses.
I guess the Koranic verses did not help clarify as much as you think they did.

I said God created Jesus(pbuh) like Adam(pbuh) by just saying 'Be' and he was 'Created'.
I must have missed that since it was not in the post i quoted.

Just because God did it though His word to Mary(pbuh) and that Jesus(pbuh) was born without a father (miraculously) doesn't mean that he is God's son
So when a woman gets pregnant the one who got her pregnant is not the father?

- just like Adam(pbuh) was born without a mother and a father.
Except Adam was created, not born...

God is above and beyond the need to have a Son or other corporeal needs that we humans have.
Your personal opinions, though no doubt valued by many, are of no concern to those who believe Jesus is gods son.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Jesus in the Greek Bible used the Greek word
"Periklytos" which means the admirable or
glorified one. He called that predicted
human prophet "Periklytos". This word
corresponds exactly to the Arabic word
"Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek.

John 14:16

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be
with you forever—

John 15:26

26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of
truth who goes out from the Father—he will
testify about me.

John 14:26

26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach
you all things and will remind you of
everything I have said to you.

John 16:7-14

7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the
Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I
will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin
and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no
longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into
all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he
will speak only what he hears, and he will tell
you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive
what he will make known to you.

In these four verses, the word "comforter"
is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho
Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is
interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads
the cause of another, one who councils or
advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary
volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are
told that once Jesus (peace be upon him)
departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify
Jesus (peace be upon him), and he will guide
mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.

It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek
manuscripts, of which there are claimed to
be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible
translate this word as "Ghost" to convey
their own personal understanding of the
text. However, a more accurate translation
is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent
translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed
now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is
significant, and will be expounded upon
shortly.

What the translators of the Bible have done
when presented with such discrepancies is to
do their best to choose the correct version.
In other words, since they can not know
which "ancient manuscript" is the correct
one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version"
of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection
techniques.

John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the
Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the
"ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would
find that they are not all in agreement that
the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".

A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human
Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted
the comming of a human Prophet (spirit)
after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus
would not have used the word "he" for the
Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3
below:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because
many false prophets are gone out into the
world," (1 John 4:1-3)

(also see 1 John 4:6), or an inspired human,
for example read 1 Corinthians 2:10, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, ...etc.

In the
Christian's own "Gospel of Barnabas"
Muhammad is mentioned by name here. The
Trinitarian church, however, has done its
utmost to obliterate all existing copies of "The Gospel of Barnabas," and to hide it
from the masses or to label it a forgery. For this reason, it becomes
necessary to show that even the Gospels
adopted by Paul's church also originally
spoke of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

This does not answer my post it is merely proselytising Muslim beliefs.
Which Christians do not believe.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Why are you quoting the Quran to us?
It was written by Mohamed who is not a Christian Prophet.
We have no reason to believe it has any truth that is relevant to us or Jesus.

I know that you don't believe in the Qur'an. I could have stated those explanations that even kids would understand in my own words...but I prefer the words of the Creator than mine. And if you still want to believe like the right wing nuts that Muhammad(pbuh) wrote the Qur'an, please feel free.

His views about Mary and Jesus are wrong even blasphemous .

If you wish to believe the things you have mentioned you are free to do so, however in doing so you deny the power of God.

I can say the same about your views about God Almighty. I don't deny the power of God, in fact, you undermine the unity and majesty of God.

"They say: '(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!' Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant." (Al Qur'an 19:88-93)

And not to mention that Son of God has been used for many others in the Bible. For example,
Exodus 4:22 which states: " 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son," Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!.

Also,Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn"

Also,Psalm 2:7 "I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father." Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had become his father.

So they must be God's literal son as well then.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I guess the Koranic verses did not help clarify as much as you think they did.

I must have missed that since it was not in the post i quoted.

Check it out here again...http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3288161-post17.html

So when a woman gets pregnant the one who got her pregnant is not the father?
Not unless they had physical copulation.

Except Adam was created, not born...
So ?

Your personal opinions, though no doubt valued by many, are of no concern to those who believe Jesus is gods son.

And I guess of real concern to someone who doesn't believe in God at all.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I know that you don't believe in the Qur'an. I could have stated those explanations that even kids would understand in my own words...but I prefer the words of the Creator than mine. And if you still want to believe like the right wing nuts that Muhammad(pbuh) wrote the Qur'an, please feel free.

There is no evidence that God ever wrote anything. and it is reported that Muhammad could neither read nor write. It is also reported that the Quran was dictated over a period of time to various scribes. It is a work of man.


I can say the same about your views about God Almighty. I don't deny the power of God, in fact, you undermine the unity and majesty of God.

"They say: '(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!' Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant." (Al Qur'an 19:88-93)

And not to mention that Son of God has been used for many others in the Bible. For example,
Exodus 4:22 which states: " 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son," Here we see in this verse that Israel is not only God's so called "Son", but also his first born !!.

Also,Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn"

Also,Psalm 2:7 "I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father." Here in this verse we see that God not only called David his "Son", but also had become his father.

So they must be God's literal son as well then.

In many senses, we are all the children of God, as can be shown through very many scriptures in both the Old and New Testament.
Jesus Is the actual Son Of God
It was not an invocation by Christians,
We are privileged to recognise
He was conceived by will of God.
It is indeed monstrous, and to blaspheme to suggest that he was not.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Quite the opposite - I guess you didn't read the entire post with the Quranic verses.

I said God created Jesus(pbuh) like Adam(pbuh) by just saying 'Be' and he was 'Created'. Just because God did it though His word to Mary(pbuh) and that Jesus(pbuh) was born without a father (miraculously) doesn't mean that he is God's son - just like Adam(pbuh) was born without a mother and a father. God is above and beyond the need to have a Son or other corporeal needs that we humans have.

I think you are confusing The Mythical Creation of Adam.
With a real live walking and talking Jesus, born of Mary.
God said at his baptism that Jesus was his Son, Jesus said God was his father...
How clear is that.
 
Top