Jesus was Yahweh???

[The Fog Horn]

This is a little test. Can all Christians who believe Jesus was the god of the OT please say whether or not the following Psalm sounds more like Jesus than a volcano? Just say 'Jesus' or 'Volcano' and make sure your answer comes from your head and not your heart and keep the entire Psalm in mind when making your decision.

Psalm 18

King James Version (KJV)

18 I will love thee, O Lord, my strength.
2 The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.
4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.
5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.
7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.
8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.
10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.
15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.
16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.
17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.
18 They prevented me in the day of my calamity: but the Lord was my stay.
19 He brought me forth also into a large place; he delivered me, because he delighted in me.
20 The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
22 For all his judgments were before me, and I did not put away his statutes from me.
23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.
24 Therefore hath the Lord recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.
25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.
28 For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.
29 For by thee I have run through a troop; and by my God have I leaped over a wall.
30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
31 For who is God save the Lord? or who is a rock save our God?
32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.
34 He teacheth my hands to war, so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.
36 Thou hast enlarged my steps under me, that my feet did not slip.
37 I have pursued mine enemies, and overtaken them: neither did I turn again till they were consumed.
38 I have wounded them that they were not able to rise: they are fallen under my feet.
39 For thou hast girded me with strength unto the battle: thou hast subdued under me those that rose up against me.
40 Thou hast also given me the necks of mine enemies; that I might destroy them that hate me.
41 They cried, but there was none to save them: even unto the Lord, but he answered them not.
42 Then did I beat them small as the dust before the wind: I did cast them out as the dirt in the streets.
43 Thou hast delivered me from the strivings of the people; and thou hast made me the head of the heathen: a people whom I have not known shall serve me.
44 As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me: the strangers shall submit themselves unto me.
45 The strangers shall fade away, and be afraid out of their close places.
46 The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.
47 It is God that avengeth me, and subdueth the people under me.
48 He delivereth me from mine enemies: yea, thou liftest me up above those that rise up against me: thou hast delivered me from the violent man.
49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, O Lord, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
50 Great deliverance giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Still on that "Yahweh is a volcano" train, are we?

Fine, I'll humour you. It's got some imagery that reminds one of a volcano.
But Yahweh is often described using various images from nature in the Bible. A volcano could be used because it's huge and powerful. That doesn't mean that Yahweh was a volcano.

 

[The Fog Horn]

Still on that "Yahweh is a volcano" train, are we?

Fine, I'll humour you. It's got some imagery that reminds one of a volcano.
But Yahweh is often described using various images from nature in the Bible. A volcano could be used because it's huge and powerful. That doesn't mean that Yahweh was a volcano.

You're right but there are many things that contribute to the theory, one being that the use of volcanic activity 'imagery' is strikingly regular in the OT. Either the god of the OT was volcanic activity or all the authors were a bit volcano-mad and just couldn't think of very much else to describe their god's power, wrath and looks....including his smoke filled nostrils. Hmmmm.....why would any real god be described as having smoke filled nostrils? Yahweh is said to reside at the top of the 'mountain of god' or 'mountain of fire' too. Little things like that added up over a year and a half.......

p.s. to help some people understand the very basics of the theory.....I believe the ancient Hebrews mistakenly thought the fire on the top of the mountain (which they just thought was any old mountain....not knowing what volcanoes were or even having a name for volcanoes....not once mentioned in the Bible) was divine. Fire was often seen as divine so to see it perched on the top of the mountain would have been to them a definite sign of the arrival or presense of their god. They didn't have a clue the mountain was not solid, as were all others. They didn't have geologists amongst them. They assumed the rivers of fire came from their god, who sat on his 'throne' on the top of the mountain, amongst heaven (the clouds). They assumed their god orchestrated the volcanic activities, his outstretched arm being an earthquake, rivers of fire being lava rivers, brimstone/'shot through'/etc being sulphur balls, chariots (early OT) being tumbling and racing ash clouds, etc. That explains why Moses went up the mount to talk with god. Moses' face shon when he descended the mount (mount Sinai), as it did when he came out of the tabernacle, which may have been sited over a lava vent. Moses, of course, didn't find a man in a fancy robe at the top of the volcano but hashed up a few rules, as the story goes. Volcano gods all produced rules...or at least their prophets did.

This theory runs into some very interesting things such as the Mayans worshipping volcanoes and the possibility pyramids were built around the world to represent volcanoes and allow people to walk up them, as did Moses and countless other volcano god prophets, to meet with god. Many many disappointing trips up those steps. The Mayans even built fires on the top of their volcanoes to emulate the smoke from volcanoes. Pyramids can be found where continents are rifting. There must be a connection and I think this is it. A pyramid has even been found in Hail in Saudi Arabia....a place largley undiscovered, with what looks like the largest collection of rock art in the world and possibly a link with nomads who travelled along the Sinai.

Great balls of fire!!!

 

[tumbleweed41]

What does this have to do with the New Testament claim (according to some) that Jesus is/was God?

 

[The Fog Horn]

What does this have to do with the New Testament claim (according to some) that Jesus is/was God?

If Jesus was god then this Psalm would conjure up images of Jesus and not a volcano. If there are parts of this Psalm that conjure up images of a volcano, how can that be reconsiled with Christians? Did Jesus ever display wrathful, vengeful, hot headed and murderous tendencies to the point that a Bible author could justifiably use volcano terminology to describe him metaphorically?

What is metaphorical and what it literal? Could Jesus ever have been described as having smoke coming out of his nostrils and throwing out fiery brimstone in hateful anger? Getting annoyed with the money lenders in the temple is one thing but did he destroy them? Did he destroy many groups of people who weren't quite to his liking, to the extent many many verses in the OT could accurately be describing him? Was his wrath that extensive or was he known for forgiveness and turning the other cheek?

Christians cannot have it both ways, although they do try. Christians have behaved in an unChristian-like way for too long.

What would Jesus say in response to my OP? Would he say volcano or would he say Jesus? This is the test for all Christians.

 

[tumbleweed41]

If Jesus was god then this Psalm would conjure up images of Jesus and not a volcano....

Why? Can you think of any description of God in the Torah that conjures up an image of Jesus?
Why should any description of God in the Torah, including your volcano hypothesis, conjure up an image of Jesus?

 

[The Fog Horn]

Why? Can you think of any description of God in the Torah that conjures up an image of Jesus?
Why should any description of God in the Torah, including your volcano hypothesis, conjure up an image of Jesus?

For me, there is no correlation but Christians have convinced themselves that the god of the OT was Jesus....all the same man. One Christian friend I know once said, in response to my questions, that maybe Jesus had become a better god....and then shrugged her shoulders.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I do not believe I have ever seen a Christian looking at a description of God in the OT and say, "Look, a perfect image of Jesus!"

 

[The Fog Horn]

I do not believe I have ever seen a Christian looking at a description of God in the OT and say, "Look, a perfect image of Jesus!"

What is your point? Are you saying that Christians do not generally believe, or kid themselves they believe, that Jesus is the god of the OT?

 

[The Fog Horn]

I think maybe the wiki page below might help some Christians along a bit...

Fire and brimstone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is pretty conclusive isn't it?

Here is the summary of the sermon mentioned in the page above....

"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God."


Most of the sermon's text consists of ten "considerations":

1. God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment.
2. The Wicked deserve to be cast into hell. Divine justice does not prevent God from destroying the Wicked at any moment.
3. The Wicked, at this moment, suffer under God's condemnation to Hell.
4. The Wicked, on earth - at this very moment - suffer the torments of Hell. The Wicked must not think, simply because they are not physically in Hell, that God (in Whose hand the Wicked now reside) is not - at this very moment - as angry with them as He is with those miserable creatures He is now tormenting in hell, and who - at this very moment - do feel and bear the fierceness of His wrath.
5. At any moment God shall permit him, Satan stands ready to fall upon the Wicked and seize them as his own.
6. If it were not for God's restraints, there are, in the souls of wicked men, hellish principles reigning which, presently, would kindle and flame out into hellfire.
7. Simply because there are not visible means of death before them at any given moment, the Wicked should not feel secure.
8. Simply because it is natural to care for oneself or to think that others may care for them, men should not think themselves safe from God's wrath.
9. All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ.
10. God has never promised to save us from Hell, except for those contained in Christ through the covenant of Grace.

Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Isn't it time some Christians expressed the ultimate Christian traits of honesty and integrity and made a stand against the volcano god of the OT? Did Jesus fail completely? Did his work result in a world clan of people incapable of seeing this marriage for the sham it is?

 

[tumbleweed41]

What is your point? Are you saying that Christians do not generally believe, or kid themselves they believe, that Jesus is the god of the OT?

My point is that the claims of Jesus being God are in the New Testament, not the Torah.

Whether Yahweh, El, Elohim, etc started out as a storm god, volcano god, or more likely, an amalgam of tribal and Mesopotamian myths is irrelevant to the Yahweh worshiped by the Jews at the time of Jesus.

It is well known in religious anthropology that Yahweh worship grew from the henotheistic belief in many gods, to a monolotry of worshiping strictly one god among many, then the eventual monotheistic belief of only one God.

If you want to challenge the claim that Jesus was God, or claimed to be God, why not focus on those claims?

 

[outhouse]

It is well known in religious anthropology that Yahweh worship grew from the henotheistic belief in many gods

the correct statement would be polytheistic, if we follow scholarships and generally what is known of early Israelites who worshipped El as the father of Yahweh and teh god most high [El Elyon], Baal with Asherah being a consort at different times to both El and Yahweh

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Whether Yahweh, El, Elohim, etc started out as a storm god, volcano god, or more likely, an amalgam of tribal and Mesopotamian myths is irrelevant to the Yahweh worshiped by the Jews at the time of Jesus.

There seems to be so much interest in the evolution of Yahwism yet so little willingness to actually read the relevant scholarship, resulting in inane OPs such as we have here.

Parenthetically, "amalgam of tribal and Mesopotamian myths" is at best an oversimplification given Yahwism's southern origins.

 

[tumbleweed41]

the correct statement would be polytheistic,

I am pretty sure the descriptive I meant to use was henotheistic.:yes:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am pretty sure the descriptive I meant to use was henotheistic.:yes:

It was pretty clear to me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

*Deleted Post*

Oh my ... another rant.

 

[The Fog Horn]

My point is that the claims of Jesus being God are in the New Testament, not the Torah.

Whether Yahweh, El, Elohim, etc started out as a storm god, volcano god, or more likely, an amalgam of tribal and Mesopotamian myths is irrelevant to the Yahweh worshiped by the Jews at the time of Jesus.

It is well known in religious anthropology that Yahweh worship grew from the henotheistic belief in many gods, to a monolotry of worshiping strictly one god among many, then the eventual monotheistic belief of only one God.

If you want to challenge the claim that Jesus was God, or claimed to be God, why not focus on those claims?

My argument is that the entity in the Psalm bares no relation to Jesus, when taken as a whole. My post was directed at Christians, most of wholm argue the entity in this Psalm IS Jesus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My argument is that the entity in the Psalm bares no relation to Jesus, when taken as a whole. My post was directed at Christians, most of wholm argue the entity in this Psalm IS Jesus.

It's a tiresome argument, but thanks for sharing. (By the way, you haven't a clue what most Christians think.)

 

[The Fog Horn]

There seems to be so much interest in the evolution of Yahwism yet so little willingness to actually read the relevant scholarship, resulting in inane OPs such as we have here.

Parenthetically, "amalgam of tribal and Mesopotamian myths" is at best an oversimplification given Yahwism's southern origins.

Sometimes the most sophisticated of stories have the most inane origins.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sometimes the most sophisticated of stories have the most inane origins.

As with the most inane OPs.