Jesus was Yahweh???

[tumbleweed41]

My argument is that the entity in the Psalm bares no relation to Jesus, when taken as a whole. My post was directed at Christians, most of wholm argue the entity in this Psalm IS Jesus.

And as I said, if you want to argue the divinity of Jesus, why not use relevant material?

 

[The Fog Horn]

*Deleted Post*

Don't be too hard on Yahweh. He didn't ask to be born. Besides, every now and then he showed his softer side.

Exodus 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.11And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

You see....he had a heart. Or he was a volcano that coughed up a bit of smoke making the Hebrews panic and blame it on their idol worship. Or he was Jesus.

The future's going to see some hilarious comedies!!!

 

[The Fog Horn]

And as I said, if you want to argue the divinity of Jesus, why not use relevant material?

I AM arguing the divinity of Jesus, in an indirect way. As Christians, on the whole, believe the god of the OT was Jesus and visa versa, if the god of the OT can be shown to be anthropomorphised volcanic activity....who in their right mind would continue to claim Jesus was the god of the OT? Did Jesus look like a volcano? Did he spew out rivers of fire, balls of brimstone, tumbling ash clouds, bolts of lightening and scary noises?

Not only are the characters diametrically opposed, meaning they cannot possibly be the same entity, the use of volcano terminology cannot be metaphorical as it's used far too much. The terminology was meant to be literal but it eventually became metaphorical over time and as the volcanoes became a distant memory from Arabia and from more rifting times along the Jordan Rift Valley.

Once the two are seperated, due to people being able to fight off the mental block, then people have to make their own judgement of Jesus. Knowing this new information, where does that leave Jesus? Well, it is fairly certain that Jesus was a Jew, said he didn't come to erase the law (had he been a real god he would have come to erase the law of the imaginery volcano god) and warned people about the lake of fire, which was quite obviously the caldera of a volcano.

 

[Josh Waldecker]

I don't know anythign about any "volcano god" ... but yes, the god in the OT is jeleous, wrathful, full of revenge, hates his enemies ... I really could go on and on. Jesus contradicted Yahweh too many times for Yahweh to be Jesus' Father.

So while I've never heard of a "volcano god" theory (sure is an interesting thought) - I am however, thoroughly convinced, that our Father in heaven, is NOT Yahweh (and therefore, Jesus is obviously not Yahweh ... BTW, Jesus prayed constantly - if Jesus IS God, was he praying to himself?).

Christians need to ask themselves one simple question: Would Jesus order his followers to commit genocide? (hint: NO!)

 

[The Fog Horn]

As with the most inane OPs.

Time will tell. A paper on the subject has been submitted for peer review. Maybe that will help settle things.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I AM arguing the divinity of Jesus, in an indirect way. As Christians, on the whole, believe the god of the OT was Jesus and visa versa, if the god of the OT can be shown to be anthropomorphised volcanic activity....who in their right mind would continue to claim Jesus was the god of the OT? Did Jesus look like a volcano? Did he spew out rivers of fire, balls of brimstone, tumbling ash clouds, bolts of lightening and scary noises?

Not only are the characters diametrically opposed, meaning they cannot possibly be the same entity, the use of volcano terminology cannot be metaphorical as it's used far too much. The terminology was meant to be literal but it eventually became metaphorical over time and as the volcanoes became a distant memory from Arabia and from more rifting times along the Jordan Rift Valley.

Once the two are seperated, due to people being able to fight off the mental block, then people have to make their own judgement of Jesus. Knowing this new information, where does that leave Jesus? Well, it is fairly certain that Jesus was a Jew, said he didn't come to erase the law (had he been a real god he would have come to erase the law of the imaginery volcano god) and warned people about the lake of fire, which was quite obviously the caldera of a volcano.

The mental gymnastics used in your argument defy reason.
I really see no point in your insistence on "volcanoes" or the relation to the claims of Jesus's divinity.

 

[The Fog Horn]

The mental gymnastics used in your argument defy reason.
I really see no point in your insistence on "volcanoes" or the relation to the claims of Jesus's divinity.

This is hardly a complex argument. :no:

 

[The Fog Horn]

I don't know anythign about any "volcano god" ... but yes, the god in the OT is jeleous, wrathful, full of revenge, hates his enemies ... I really could go on and on. Jesus contradicted Yahweh too many times for Yahweh to be Jesus' Father.

So while I've never heard of a "volcano god" theory (sure is an interesting thought) - I am however, thoroughly convinced, that our Father in heaven, is NOT Yahweh (and therefore, Jesus is obviously not Yahweh ... BTW, Jesus prayed constantly - if Jesus IS God, was he praying to himself?).

Christians need to ask themselves one simple question: Would Jesus order his followers to commit genocide? (hint: NO!)

Once a Christian has made the very obvious (but for millenia totally eluded) realisation Jesus couldn't possibly have been Yahweh no matter how many fanciful and poetic metaphors the Bible 'experts' and commenters INVENT THEMSELVES....he needs to then work out the puzzle of whether or not Jesus was divine.

You point out that he prayed constantly. So, either he was praying to the god of the OT, in other words to nothing, or to another god. Did he ever teach anyone to pray to a new god? If not, you have your answer.

Then you need to decide what to do. Do you hate Jesus and view him as a charlatan no better than the multitude of New Age frauds? Maybe there were elements of him that were fraudulent, or maybe his biographers exagerated his powers.

All needs not be lost with Jesus. My belief is that he was swept along in the very supersticious times he was born into and, possibly due to a pregnant single mother who needed an excuse, grew up with a 'guru mentality' of omnipotence and specialness. There are many people like that today walking around saying openly that they are the new Jesus. They're not necessarily bad people....just mistaken and in need of some humbling psychotherapy.

Jesus was mostly a good man but his greatest offering to humanity has not yet come to fruition....that being the end of fear based religions and the beginning of live and let live, loving thy neighbour, equality, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, etc. That is because Christians have carried on their backs a lead weight that is the curse of civilisation....and made ludicrous excuses for it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Time will tell. A paper on the subject has been submitted for peer review. Maybe that will help settle things.

Your peer or the peer of acknowledged scholars?

 

[The Fog Horn]

Your peer or the peer of acknowledged scholars?

A Jewish scholar. :yes:

 

[tumbleweed41]

A Jewish scholar. :yes:

Just one?

 

[The Fog Horn]

Sorry....misread the question. Acknowledged scholars.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Your peer or the peer of acknowledged scholars?

A Jewish scholar. :yes:

Just one?

And, presumably, I'm suppose to be impressed that it's a Jewish scholar. How childish and insulting ...

 

[Bob Dixon]

It's a bit too late to say this, but... Yahweh is also described as someone who shouts like a drunk man and strikes His enemies on their behinds.

This doesn't mean that the ancient Israelite conception of God involved alcoholism.

 

[The Fog Horn]

It's a bit too late to say this, but... Yahweh is also described as someone who shouts like a drunk man and strikes His enemies on their behinds.

This doesn't mean that the ancient Israelite conception of God involved alcoholism.

Metaphors for the volcano erupting and throwing out 'coals of fire' that hit the fleeing people on the backside. Have you ever heard of people fleeing towards an attacker?

By Psalm 78, the volcano terminology was just terminology used to portray the imaginery character of Yahweh based on past events. The terminology (he was wroth, his anger was kindled, he smote, etc) carried on being used after volcanic activity became a thing of the past, due to the Hebrews moving away from Arabia and due to the fact volcanoes don't erupt all the time. By Judges, the new generations either didn't know anything about volcanoes or at least didn't know they were the representation of their god. They were just told about their scary god who would be wroth with them if they didn't believe in him enough.

The moving away element of Judaism is the very reason it has survived to this day.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

By Psalm 78, the volcano terminology was just terminology used to portray the imaginery character of Yahweh based on past events.

<yawn>

All allegory, poetic imagery, metaphor, and symbolism is, directly or indirectly, "based on past events." Your silly 'theory' is shallow, unimaginative, and worthless.​

</yawn>

 

[The Fog Horn]

<yawn>

All allegory, poetic imagery, metaphor, and symbolism is, directly or indirectly, "based on past events." Your silly 'theory' is shallow, unimaginative, and worthless.
​

</yawn>

No need to get so personal is there? Oh, maybe there is. There's a lot at stake for you of course.

My point, which has blown over your head, was that verses later in the Bible that sound volcanic are probably not due to volcanic activity but are throw back terms that were, at one point, based on reality.

Anyway, if you carry on being so rude I will be wroth, I will spew out my fiery anger and coals will be kindled by it......and you will be consumed like stubble or handed over as a slave.

 

[outhouse]

I am pretty sure the descriptive I meant to use was henotheistic.:yes:

they were only henotheistic for a short brief period

they were born of polytheism into Yahweh

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Israelite monotheism was a gradual process which began with the normal beliefs and practices of the ancient world.[72] The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like many Ancient Near Eastern religions, was based on the cult of the ancestors and the worship of family gods (the "gods of the fathers").[73] The major deities were not numerous &#8211; El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[74] By the early monarchy El and Yahweh had become unified and Asherah did not continue as a separate state cult,[74] although she continued to be popular at a community level until Persian times.[75] Yahweh, later the national god of both Israel and Judah seems to have originated in Edom and Midian in southern Canaan, and may have been brought north to Israel by the Kenites and Midianites at an early stage.[76] With the emergence of monarchy at the beginning of Iron Age II the king promoted his own family god, Yahweh, as the god of the kingdom, but beyond the royal court religion continued to be both polytheistic and family-centered, as it was also for other societies in the Ancient Near East.

Normal practices for ancient and proto Israelites was Polytheism

now if im worng please correct me, because Yahweh also predates Israelites

 

[tumbleweed41]

A reading of the Torah, with it's frequent warnings from Yahweh against worshiping "other gods", and it's message that Yahweh is "the God of Israel" shows a henotheistic belief.
Granted, henotheism more than likely grew out of polytheism, but tribal identities focused on a particular god for that tribe, while recognizing the existance of the gods of other tribes.
Much of the OT showed how the Israelites god (Yahweh) overcame and defeated the gods of other tribes. Eventually, the "other gods' became "false gods", rendering Yahweh worship monotheistic.

 

[outhouse]

A reading of the Torah, with it's frequent warnings from Yahweh against worshiping "other gods", and it's message that Yahweh is "the God of Israel" shows a henotheistic belief.

it was redacted after 622 BC to reflect the new monotheistic Yahwist in control of the jewish governement.

for the previous 600 + years going back before Israelites existance Yahweh was never the one god. El was the "Father" and they were factually polytheistic with El ,Baal and Asherah.

The major deities were not numerous &#8211; El, Asherah, and Yahweh, with Baal as a fourth god in the early period.[

even after 622 BC not everyone was a loyal Yahwist and that is evident in the scripture. Polytheism hadnt even died completely at that point, allthough it was on a rapid decline.

Granted, henotheism more than likely grew out of polytheism

factual really

they were polytheistic much longer then the brief state of henotheism after the Babylonian exile

but tribal identities focused on a particular god for that tribe, while recognizing the existance of the gods of other tribes.

maybe I can clear things up here

there was no major tribe, there was north and south and both from 1200 BC to 622 BC that were polytheistic and placed different deity beliefs. By geographic regions, and changing cultures, we had belief in Baal and Asherah who was a consort of both El and Yahweh. During war times Yahweh worship became more prevelant then the others as he was viewed as a war god. In peaceful times we witnessed El and Baal being worshipped.

Much of the OT showed how the Israelites god (Yahweh) overcame and defeated the gods of other tribes.

this never happened

Yahweh never deafeat El or Baal, which El was his father and Baal a brother.

They were all just redacted in under the Yahwist redactors. Its why you see Elohim and Yahweh mentioned as well as many other names like El Elyon and El Shaddai


[youtube]MlnnWbkMlbg[/youtube]
3.3.3 Atheism: A History of God (Part 1) - YouTube