Jesus Will Never Return

[1robin]

I use "destruction of Mankind" as a hyperbolism to the high number of people destroyed by the waters of the Flood. Something akin but opposite to universal salvation to distinguish from personal salvation. Now, about that dialogue between Jesus and the Samaritan woman, I don't believe it ever happened if you consider that Jesus had just assigned his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation and had warned them not to go the way of the Gentiles, especially Samaritans and, as the disciples went off he waited for that chance to go to chat with a Samaritan woman, demonstrating a high degree of hypocrisy. (Mat. 10:5,6) And last but not least, could you provide us with an eyewitness that Jesus experienced bodily resurrection? Of course, you can't!

Ok, I will cover these in order.

1. You cannot arbitrarily pick your own number of people God will or will not wipe out.
2. If you look at population estimate curves for the time of the flood there were maybe a few hundred thousand people on the planet at the time. Stalin alone wiped out 20 million people.
3. So you really cannot say anything about how many people God will cause or allow to live or die.
4. You also need to know whether the flood narrative is an analogy, a literal global flood, or a literal local flood. Take it from someone who has tried many times to determine which was meant in Genesis, it isn't easy.

5. There is no such thing as a biblical doctrine where everyone is saved. There is a universal offer of salvation, but the bible from Genesis to Revelation always considers the amount of people who are following God as a minority or a remnant. Salvation is the exception not a universal rule. However since you juxtaposed universal and personal salvation perhaps we agree.

6. There are probably at least an average size libraries worth of commentary about why Jesus spoke of salvation to a Gentile. If you are going to pull a Thomas Jefferson and take a pair of scissors to the bible you need to have some very good evidence to deny scripture that has been accepted for 2000 years. Just as what binds us does not bind God, what was required of the apostles at a certain moment in time has no power to restrict what Christ may do.

Here is the most accepted commentary on John in existence:
John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

 

[MJFlores]

HaShem would never permit me to prove that his Prophets were lying. Bodily resurrection you will find only in your NT. Isaiah 26:19 means that "Your People have gone into exile but they will soon or later return to the Land of Israel." (Ezekiel 37:12) Those among the Jewish People in exile who return to the Land of Israel are risen from the graves of the exile. (Isaiah 53:8,9) That's what happened with the "Dry Bones" in the vision of Ezekiel 37:12.

If you use personal interpretation, then what is the use of your bible?

The Bible is the power of God and the words of God - why would you interpret it? It should speak for itself.

Ezekiel 37 is more than enough example to show that the dead will again rise - that even if people are dusts, they will one day rise.

I do not see any exile in Ezekiel 37. The exile is in your personal interpretation. It is like interpreting a photo into an abstract painting - it is already a photo, for goodness sakes.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Lord had nothing to do with the Jews being banished from their land for two thousand years. They themselves caused their banishment.

The Promised Land is only for those who know their Saviour - aka Joshua.
Why would the Lord say that Judah had not 'acknowledged their offence'; and that they do not 'seek my face'? [Hosea 5:15]

If living by the Law is the answer to living in the land, why has Judah not been able to live by the Law? Why does disobedience afflict a people called on to be holy?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ok, I will cover these in order.

1. You cannot arbitrarily pick your own number of people God will or will not wipe out.
2. If you look at population estimate curves for the time of the flood there were maybe a few hundred thousand people on the planet at the time. Stalin alone wiped out 20 million people.
3. So you really cannot say anything about how many people God will cause or allow to live or die.
4. You also need to know whether the flood narrative is an analogy, a literal global flood, or a literal local flood. Take it from someone who has tried many times to determine which was meant in Genesis, it isn't easy.

5. There is no such thing as a biblical doctrine where everyone is saved. There is a universal offer of salvation, but the bible from Genesis to Revelation always considers the amount of people who are following God as a minority or a remnant. Salvation is the exception not a universal rule. However since you juxtaposed universal and personal salvation perhaps we agree.

6. There are probably at least an average size libraries worth of commentary about why Jesus spoke of salvation to a Gentile. If you are going to pull a Thomas Jefferson and take a pair of scissors to the bible you need to have some very good evidence to deny scripture that has been accepted for 2000 years. Just as what binds us does not bind God, what was required of the apostles at a certain moment in time has no power to restrict what Christ may do.

Here is the most accepted commentary on John in existence:
John 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

And you have forgotten the six million Jews the Nazis wiped out in Europe. Why? They don't count as people? There are two kinds of salvation. One is collective salvation from catastrophic events and the other is personal salvation which only obedience to the Law or laws can keep one safe from the transgressions thereof.

 

[1robin]

And you have forgotten the six million Jews the Nazis wiped out in Europe. Why? They don't count as people? There are two kinds of salvation. One is collective salvation from catastrophic events and the other is personal salvation which only obedience to the Law or laws can keep one safe from the transgressions thereof.

What the heck are you talking about?

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you use personal interpretation, then what is the use of your bible? The Bible is the power of God and the words of God - why would you interpret it? It should speak for itself.
Ezekiel 37 is more than enough example to show that the dead will again rise - that even if people are dusts, they will one day rise. I do not see any exile in Ezekiel 37. The exile is in your personal interpretation. It is like interpreting a photo into an abstract painting - it is already a photo, for goodness sakes.

I am Jewish; hence I can use Jewish interpretation in the Tanach aka Jewish Scriptures. Sometimes I am allowed to use Jewish interpretation in the NT when a Jew aka Jesus is being used to build Christian doctrines. Except for that, I have nothing pro or against the NT. The Tanach is Jewish Scriptures. There is nothing wrong if I use Jewish interpretation to explain it. There is absolutely no trace of bodily resurrection in Ezekiel. It would be a contradiction of the whole of the Tanach as this issue is concerned. Bodily resurrection is a Christian doctrine in the NT. Paul himself said that it was according to his gospel if you read II Timothy 2:8. That Christian idea, he did not copy it from the Tanach but from Hellenistic mythology. You claim above that you do not see any thing about exile in Ezekiel 37. Of course not! You are subject to Christian preconceived notions as you must uphold the Pauline gospel that Jesus resurrected. BTW, you believe in bodily resurrection and use Ezekiel 37:12 as evidence. So, I have a question for you: Where are you supposed to go when you resurrect, to Israel? If your answer is negative, you can no longer use Ezekiel 37:12 because the text says that the Lord will open up the graves and bring us back to the Land of Israel. Where are you supposed to go then?

 

[Ben Avraham]

What the heck are you talking about?

I am talking about all the millions of people Stalin murdered which you mentioned by the numbers, 20 you said, and not a word about the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis in Europe. I was wondering if the Holocaust was supposed to be forgotten.

 

[Ben Avraham]

The Promised Land is only for those who know their Saviour - aka Joshua. Why would the Lord say that Judah had not 'acknowledged their offence'; and that they do not 'seek my face'? [Hosea 5:15] If living by the Law is the answer to living in the land, why has Judah not been able to live by the Law? Why does disobedience afflict a people called on to be holy?

Are you talking about Joshua, the prophet anointed to replace Moses? If yes, what did he do besides the fact that he was the one who completed the job of Moses as a Messianic leader? If you are talking about Jesus what did he do at all if even as a Messianic leader he did not classify? If Judah had not acknowledged their offense, we would not be today back in the Promised Land. (Jeremiah 46:28) We seek the "face" of the Lord every day. Myself, I study Torah two hours every day. We are a People. There are always those among a People who break the Law but, in general, I can say, we live by the Law. Why don't you read Psalm 119? It is all about God's Law and the reasons why we must live by the Law. Jesus himself said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law to achieve salvation. (Luke 16:29-31) In other words, this is the same as we must live by the Law in order to be saved from troubles. And for your last question
above, read Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." And that included Jesus if you ask me... and if you ask me, I'll tell you why.

 

[1robin]

I am talking about all the millions of people Stalin murdered which you mentioned by the numbers, 20 you said, and not a word about the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis in Europe. I was wondering if the Holocaust was supposed to be forgotten.

If you make any additional ant-Semitic references concerning me I will put you on ignore.

I was not giving a list of all mass killings to have ever occurred. I gave one from a low range and one from a high range to show that more people have been killed in the last century than in the flood. Therefor your argument about arbitrary amounts of people being destroyed was null and void.

 

[Ben Avraham]

If you make any additional ant-Semitic references concerning me I will put you on ignore. I was not giving a list of all mass killings to have ever occurred. I gave one from a low range and one from a high range to show that more people have been killed in the last century than in the flood. Therefor your argument about arbitrary amounts of people being destroyed was null and void.

Are you implying to compare the world population at the time of Noah with the world population of our time? It is only obvious that a thousand people, for instance, killed by a tsunami at the time of Noah could be considered more of a universal disaster than a million people today.

 

[1robin]

Are you implying to compare the world population at the time of Noah with the world population of our time? It is only obvious that a thousand people, for instance, killed by a tsunami at the time of Noah could be considered more of a universal disaster than a million people today.

I am saying that your argument about how many people can be wiped out, over any specific span of time, concerning God, is arbitrary and based on things you can't possibly know. You can't resurrect the argument by appealing to equally arbitrary proportions either.

 

[MJFlores]

I am Jewish; hence I can use Jewish interpretation in the Tanach aka Jewish Scriptures. Sometimes I am allowed to use Jewish interpretation in the NT when a Jew aka Jesus is being used to build Christian doctrines. Except for that, I have nothing pro or against the NT. The Tanach is Jewish Scriptures. There is nothing wrong if I use Jewish interpretation to explain it. There is absolutely no trace of bodily resurrection in Ezekiel. It would be a contradiction of the whole of the Tanach as this issue is concerned. Bodily resurrection is a Christian doctrine in the NT. Paul himself said that it was according to his gospel if you read II Timothy 2:8. That Christian idea, he did not copy it from the Tanach but from Hellenistic mythology. You claim above that you do not see any thing about exile in Ezekiel 37. Of course not! You are subject to Christian preconceived notions as you must uphold the Pauline gospel that Jesus resurrected. BTW, you believe in bodily resurrection and use Ezekiel 37:12 as evidence. So, I have a question for you: Where are you supposed to go when you resurrect, to Israel? If your answer is negative, you can no longer use Ezekiel 37:12 because the text says that the Lord will open up the graves and bring us back to the Land of Israel. Where are you supposed to go then?

Even you are Jewish, open your eyes

 

[Ben Avraham]

Even you are Jewish, open your eyes

Jews have their eyes closed only when they go to sleep. Evidence of the fact is in the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews, have you read it? It is a very short text. If you don't want to look for it elsewhere, let me know and I'll post it here for your eyes only.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I am saying that your argument about how many people can be wiped out, over any specific span of time, concerning God, is arbitrary and based on things you can't possibly know. You can't resurrect the argument by appealing to equally arbitrary proportions either.

Okay, I got the message. Can we now change the subject into another we can learn something from? We can even go back to the theme that "Jesus will never return." One evidence is that the hope is already two thousand years old and, the chance is that at the end of another two thousand years neither one of us will be around to say, "I told you!"

 

[Redemptionsong]

Are you talking about Joshua, the prophet anointed to replace Moses? If yes, what did he do besides the fact that he was the one who completed the job of Moses as a Messianic leader? If you are talking about Jesus what did he do at all if even as a Messianic leader he did not classify? If Judah had not acknowledged their offense, we would not be today back in the Promised Land. (Jeremiah 46:28) We seek the "face" of the Lord every day. Myself, I study Torah two hours every day. We are a People. There are always those among a People who break the Law but, in general, I can say, we live by the Law. Why don't you read Psalm 119? It is all about God's Law and the reasons why we must live by the Law. Jesus himself said, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law to achieve salvation. (Luke 16:29-31) In other words, this is the same as we must live by the Law in order to be saved from troubles. And for your last question
above, read Ecclesiastes 7:20 "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." And that included Jesus if you ask me... and if you ask me, I'll tell you why.

Ben Avraham, you study the Torah, and must be aware that God does not use words lightly or loosely. Moses, who represents the Law of God, was not able to enter the Promised Land. It fell to Joshua, 'Jah saves', to enter the Promised Land. This is telling us, in the most graphic manner, that Moses and the old covenant can take you to the very edge of the Promised Land (heaven) but it cannot get you in. Only God's saving grace can get you into heaven. That's why the individual Messiah is necessary. Only he is without sin, because only God and his Son are without sin. God's spirit was in the Messiah, although he was born a man.
The three pilgrim festivals that were appointed by God had a special significance for Moses. The significance was temporal and earthly. Freedom from physical slavery; the receiving of the written Law; dwelling in temporary booths. Jesus (Joshua) gave these festivals their spiritual significance. He could not have manufactured the outcome. Freedom from sin (inner slavery); the receiving of the Holy Spirit (the Law written on the heart); the true 'tabernacle', providing a permanent dwelling place with God.
Psalm 119 is a beautiful Psalm and says just what I feel about God's law. But look at the last verse, 'I have gone astray like a lost sheep;' Now look at what Jesus said:'I am the good shepherd: for the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.' There's nothing wrong with God's law, but we, as sinners, need a Saviour. Only God can meet those needs.

 

[MJFlores]

Jews have their eyes closed only when they go to sleep. Evidence of the fact is in the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews, have you read it? It is a very short text. If you don't want to look for it elsewhere, let me know and I'll post it here for your eyes only.

Mark Twain?

Heaven exist
Sheol or the grave exist
Fiery Hell doesn't exist, yet.
So he is mistaken

Now - the Old Testament books mentions death and resurrection. There are 3 individuals or people who were taken up to heaven and no one taken to the lake of fire yet.

These three (3) people who went to heaven are:

1. Enoch - didn't die and taken up to heaven
2. Elijah - didn't die and taken up to heaven
3. Jesus Christ - died, God raised him up from the dead and taken up to heaven

What happens to a person when he dies? Where do the dead go? Can they help us? Can they harm us? The Bible makes it very clear that the dead are in the grave:

"Adrift among the dead, like the slain who lie in the grave, whom you remember no more, and who are cut off from your hand." (Ps. 88:5, New King James Version)

So, when a person dies, he does not go immediately to heaven or hell but to the grave.

While the aforementioned verse does not specify the soul, could it be possible that only the body is in the grave and not the soul? God Himself declared:

"Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins shall die." (Ezek. 18:4, Ibid.)

The Bible makes it clear that the soul dies. Not only does it die, but it also goes to the grave with the body:

"For our soul is bowed down to the dust; our bodies cling to the ground. (Ps. 44:25, Ibid.)

So, when a person dies, both body and soul go to the grave and stay there not just for a short period of time. I other words, not just for three days as some superstitiously believe. When a person dies, he will stay in the grave until Judgement Day:

"But man dies and is laid away; indeed he breathes his last and where is he? So man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be roused from their sleep." (Job 14:10,12, Ibid.)

Notice the question, "...and where is he?"...The answer we seek is right in the passage: "...man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more," There is a definite time given by the Bible and that time is when "the heavens are no more."

So Ben there is a resurrection
Dead men will rise when the heavens are no more
And the heavens will disappear on the Day of the Lord

Isaiah 34:4 New International Version (NIV)

All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

For now - So man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Notice the question, "...and where is he?"...The answer we seek is right in the passage: "...man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more," There is a definite time given by the Bible and that time is when "the heavens are no more." So Ben there is a resurrection. Dead men will rise when the heavens are no more. And the heavens will disappear on the Day of the Lord. Isaiah 34:4 New International Version (NIV) All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree. For now - So man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more.

In that case, we must wait till the Universe is undone. From the day Jesus passed away, it has been two thousand years already and he hasn't even called to say halo. The Psalmist inspired by the One Who caused the Universe to exist, declared that Sheol aka the grave is the eternal home of he dead. (Psalm 49:12,20) And King David, whose Divine inspiration never lacked him, declared that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) "Till the heavens are no more" is a statement for the end of the Universe.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben Avraham, you study the Torah, and must be aware that God does not use words lightly or loosely. Moses, who represents the Law of God, was not able to enter the Promised Land. It fell to Joshua, 'Jah saves', to enter the Promised Land. This is telling us, in the most graphic manner, that Moses and the old covenant can take you to the very edge of the Promised Land (heaven) but it cannot get you in. Only God's saving grace can get you into heaven. That's why the individual Messiah is necessary. Only he is without sin, because only God and his Son are without sin. God's spirit was in the Messiah, although he was born a man. The three pilgrim festivals that were appointed by God had a special significance for Moses. The significance was temporal and earthly. Freedom from physical slavery; the receiving of the written Law; dwelling in temporary booths. Jesus (Joshua) gave these festivals their spiritual significance. He could not have manufactured the outcome. Freedom from sin (inner slavery); the receiving of the Holy Spirit (the Law written on the heart); the true 'tabernacle', providing a permanent dwelling place with God. Psalm 119 is a beautiful Psalm and says just what I feel about God's law. But look at the last verse, 'I have gone astray like a lost sheep;' Now look at what Jesus said:'I am the good shepherd: for the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.' There's nothing wrong with God's law, but we, as sinners, need a Saviour. Only God can meet those needs.

Yes, it fell to Joshua, the prophet like unto Moses. (Deuteronomy 18:18; Numbers 27:18; Joshua 1:5,18) I have told you and I do it again, an individual cannot be the Messiah. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Jesus died, didn't he? Can you prove that he resurrected? No, you can't. Faith proves nothing. It means that Jesus still rests in his eternal home with the dead. (Psalm 49:12,20)

Yes, only God is without sins but Jesus was not. Only in the text of Mat. 23:13-33, he broke the Golden Rule 15 times. The Golden Rule covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. Serious transgressions right there. It means Jesus was not the paragon of righteousness you Christians make of him to be. Besides, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." (Ecclesiastes 7:20) Jesus was a man upon earth. This, therefore, justifies that Jesus could not have been a savior. Salvation resides on setting things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent of our sins, make reparations and return to the obedience of God's Law. It means that our savior is as close to us as our own Freewill, every time we need one. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

 

[MJFlores]

In that case, we must wait till the Universe is undone. From the day Jesus passed away, it has been two thousand years already and he hasn't even called to say halo. The Psalmist inspired by the One Who caused the Universe to exist, declared that Sheol aka the grave is the eternal home of he dead. (Psalm 49:12,20) And King David, whose Divine inspiration never lacked him, declared that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) "Till the heavens are no more" is a statement for the end of the Universe.

Now that is answerable in the New Testament.

2 Peter 3:4-10 New International Version (NIV)

They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I have told you and I do it again, an individual cannot be the Messiah.

You keep saying that there cannot be an individual Messiah, but the scriptures state otherwise. So do many of your own rabbis.

Malachi 3:1. '...and the Lord [The same Lord who appeared to Abraham in the Plains of Mamre], whom ye seek [?], shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.'

The Lord comes to his temple. This is the living temple, of which Christ is the cornerstone, and his people the rest of the building.

Scripture shows that it is possible to have an individual Messiah and a people together as one: Shepherd and flock; Leader and nation; Cornerstone and building blocks. Your efforts to behead Israel makes a mockery of scripture. It passes all the work of salvation from God to an ignorant and sinful people. But sinners cannot extricate themselves from the sticky mess they find themselves in. Why else would God continually remind us that he is the ONLY Saviour from sin and death?

Scripture supports this position.

Isaiah 54:4. 'Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.'

See also Isaiah 11:1,2,4,5,9. ' a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots;'

Jeremiah 23:5,6. 'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is the name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

Jeremiah 33: 8,9. 'For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him [Israel/Judah]: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.'

Jesus demoststrates that he is the prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18), priest and king that all scripture alludes to in type. He is the head.

How is it that you, Ben Avraham, a man who should, with his knowledge and position, be leading people to salvation, is instead leading people in the opposite direction to Christ?

You say, 'Jesus will never return'. Jesus says, 'I will come again' (John 14:3)
You say, 'God is without sins but Jesus is not'. Scripture says Jesus 'did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' (1 Peter 2:22)
And if no guile was found in his mouth then his criticism of the hypocritical scribes and pharisees was justified.(Matthew 23:13-33) These men had 'omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith:' What more needs to be said?

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